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Is one helmet better than another?

 Poster: A snowHead
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Following on from Michael Schumacher's unfortunate head injury while "wearing a helmet", it made me wonder if one make/type of helmet is better than another.
I know that they all have to correspond to Kite Marks and EU standards, but do some exceed these and do they exceed them by a lot?
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They're all pretty much the same, with an expanded polystyrene shock-absorbing layer and a hard shell layer of some sort. Ski helmets are so light that the hard shell layer is there more to protect the polystyrene from damage than to actually prevent significant penetration (as is measured in motorcycle helmets).

The development I'm interested in is MIPS from POC
http://www.pocsports.com/en/content/view/new-technologies
This puts a low-friction layer between the shell and the foam to allow it to rotate slightly, lessening the shock transmitted to the head in oblique impacts.
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There is no way of knowing as there is no standardised tests other the EU and ANSI tests which are just standards to reach rather than ranks to achive.
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I would have thought the most significant factor is 'does it fit?' and 'is it being worn at the correct orientation?'.
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Always amazes me how a fair proportion of cyclists wear their hats tipped way back on their heads. Zero protection for their forehead.
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feef wrote:
They're all pretty much the same


Does the cost make a difference to quality, ignoring branding?

Race helmets are always more expensive than 'normal' helmets, so should everyone be wearing a race helmet?
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Yes, they are different.

EPS vs EPP foam, different shell materials - for example the OLD Sweet Trooper series had a full carbon shell AND a full plastic (I think ABS?) shell (I don't know how/if this changed on the new model though).

90% of UK kayakers use Sweet helmets due the reasonably high likelihood of hitting a rock if you capsize on a small UK upland river - they are pretty clearly superior to some other helmets (that passed safety tests) that you can totally deform with one hand.

After headbutting several rocks in mine, I'm sticking to Sweet.
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Quote:
Race helmets are always more expensive than 'normal' helmets, so should everyone be wearing a race helmet?


Different factors control the price.

In part consumer items are priced based on what people will pay, rather than what they cost to make. Racers may be willing to pay more for a helmet since there is less choice and they are looking for maximum performance, not low cost.

Also volumes will be lower so economies of scale will have less effect so they will cost more to produce.

If race regulations have higher testing standards and regulations then they may be safer but if not and I could legally race in my punter lid then its all just marketing BS and maybe some aerodynamics.
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feef, having now looked on the POC site, it would appear that their principle of construction is different. Does anybody know if this makes them better?
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clarky999, That's interesting. Trying to find stockists for Sweet and POC means that I will have to go to S&R to do some sizing - I have a large and long head so have struggled with helmets and hats all my adult life Embarassed
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Race helmets may be more expensive than ordinary helmets, they may even provide a greater level of protection due to the greater extremes of the sport and may therefore have better build quality - that would parallel the horse riding game where there is a different higher standard for the 'pro' extremes of the sport. I imagine a professional racer has a helmet moulded for them, but I imagine that everyday skiers (as many of us are) have to take what is on the shelves. This is where fit comes into play and where, personally, I had huge problems.

I was willing to pay up to around £200 for a helmet that fitted and I must have literally tried every helmet by every manufacturer in about 8 different shops (plus a load at a ski show). It has to be said that I was majorly unimpressed with the apparent 'visual' build quality of many of those, quite apart from the fact that they didn't fit well either. What I ended up with was a £18 helmet from Sports Direct 90% because it fitted and 10% because it appeared well made against many others that I had seen! Now am I better off in that or a £200 helmet that didn't fit as well?
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Freddie Paellahead wrote:
feef, having now looked on the POC site, it would appear that their principle of construction is different. Does anybody know if this makes them better?


Does anyone have any studies showing that POC hats are objectively safer than alternatives? Well, no, not really.

Do they make a bunch of helmets with features that might be useful in a crash that most other manufacturers don't have? Yep.

It is worth remembering that impacts with hard objects like rocks and trees where wearing a helmet will save your life are much less likely in skiing compared to kayaking or mountain biking, for example. Stuff like MIPS or anti-penetration shells are less of a clear win for skiing. I got a POC helmet anyway, cos some of the places I ski include opportunities for low velocity impacts with trees or rock, and I'd like a helmet that can survive at least one of those and get me home whilst still offering decent protection. Other folk might not need that.
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Quote:

Does anybody know if this makes them better?



No - As far as I am aware nobody has ever done any side by side, controlled, disrtuctive and independant testing of ski helmets that would be required to make this judgement.

What is really needed if we want to make this judgement is EuroENCAP style tests and rankings of helments like they do for cars.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Race helmets, and I mean real race helmets are safer, especially since this year, as they go through different, more demanding tests then normal helmets go if they want to be certified as "FIS legal". So yes, they offer more protection, which is normal as they are intended to protect with crashes at much higher speed then recreational skiers crash at. Is it worth paying more? I don't know, everyone needs to decide this by him/herself. Personally I use race helmet, since for once, I prefer full hard shell helmet opposed to soft ears etc., as two, I can get race helmet for free, while I can't get normal fancy helmet any cheaper then anyone else, and third, I think my head is worth a bit more then few euros... even if "few euros" mean 200eur.
Other then this, EU certification is more or less so loose, that it doesn't really matter much. Every helmet sold in EU market needs to go through this, so 30eur Aldi helmet is basically just as safe as 300eur POC helmet. They both went through same tests and if they are allowed to be sold, they both passed those test. But thing is, some (mostly cheaper ones) don't fit really good, so you are inclined to wear it. And if you don't wear it, it really doesn't help much Wink
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What difference do 'Go Pro' attachments make?
Race helmets are not allowed any such attachments and must have a hard shell not 'soft ears'.
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primoz, I understand that
Quote:

Every helmet sold in EU market needs to go through this,

but my question might be phrased "Does anybody know which ones scrape through current tests, and which would pass a much tougher test?"
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One helmet can definitely be different to another. Price isn't always telling for example with bike helmets I think the cheapo, ugly jobs massively outperformed the sleek thin, expensive helmets in terms of safety. Likewise in climbing the cheap ugly, hard plastic and suspension helmets are safer than the deformable ones particularly as they are rated for multiple hits.

Skiing helmets all meet a minimum standard and some will exceed it more than others, which helmets do and don't is hard to tell without some form of independent testing.
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Freddie Paellahead, yes they are different, race helmets with solid ears are probably the safest ones on the market right now and some of them are reasonably priced Atomic,Salomon etc

I have a race one, a standard one I use teaching & a very spiffy expensive one that I use for big mountain stuff. The cost of the helmet is not only derived from safety but from other factors such as weight and materials use. Interesting quote from the Doctor at the Press conference, without the helmet he would not be here!! Shocked
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stewart woodward, actually for slalom you are allowed to have soft ears helmets. For everything else (gs, sg and dh) only full hard shell helmets are allowed.
Freddie Paellahead, as other's wrote, we will most likely never know this, as there's no other (official) tests (unless producer go for FIS legal helmet sticker) then those for EU certification.
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primoz wrote:
there's no other (official) tests (unless producer go for FIS legal helmet sticker) then those for EU certification.


Unless I've misunderstood you, there is the ASTM 2040 standard that the Yanks have... I believe it is a bit more stringent than the EN tests but otherwise basically equivalent.

One nice thing about a few of the POC helmets (and probably other manufacturers too) is that they pass muiltiple standards (eg for cycling, etc) so they've been put through a slightly more serious testing regime than the average hat. Probably not very useful or interesting for most folk, though wink
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The Scott McCarthy crash tells you everything you need to know about POC not only did he survive but he returned to WC Ski racing
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primoz wrote:
stewart woodward, actually for slalom you are allowed to have soft ears helmets. For everything else (gs, sg and dh) only full hard shell helmets are allowed.


Sorry, forgot about slalom helmets.
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Thank you all.
So it does look like some are better than others, but not necessarily manufacturer related.
Summarising:
POC and Sweet make tough helmets.
Race helmets with ears covered are probably better than ears out helmets.
Is that a fair summary?
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Fattes13 wrote:
The Scott McCarthy crash tells you everything you need to know about POC not only did he survive but he returned to WC Ski racing


But remember his helmet came off with impact with the ground Sad Confused and his head bounced again IIRC
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Freddie Paellahead, I have POC Skull Light, hard shell with soft ears and ventilation. Going for a race helmet with inclosed ears has it's disadvantages, very limited if any ventilation, limited hearing, which is why I went for the open version.
POC and Sweet rely on the outer hard shell to provide the protection rather than the normal polystyrene covered in a hard skin. By far the hard shell is the better solution, much more in keeping with Motorsport and motorbike helmets.
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Another complication is how often you need to change helmet. A while ago there was a heated debate about cycle helmets and how they deteriorate through age rather than just use, and manufacturers were recommending a new helmet every 3 or 4 years. Mine was about 12 years old so I thought a new one could be in order, and got a great one at reasonable price from SP. I don't know about skiing helmets. Mine is 4 years old with about 12 weeks of actual use and has only hit hard piste and chair lift bars Little Angel , but when should I consider a new one?
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For most of us, a helmet which fits well, and is comfortable to wear, and which we therefore wear without thinking, every day, is probably fine (but you do need the chin strap reasonably tight). I had to try on a lot before I found one which fitted well - I had some useful help from snow and rock in Port Solent - a patient assistant who told me what to look for. It wasn't a matter of brand, either - one Giro helmet fitted well, other Giro helmets ostensibly the same size, didn't. Buying a helmet online without trying it on is probably no more sensible than doing the same with boots.

Having said all that I was cross-country skiing this morning in no helmet and comfortable boots I could easily drive in. Was most pleasant. Little Angel
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Spyderman wrote:
Freddie Paellahead, I have POC Skull Light, hard shell with soft ears and ventilation. Going for a race helmet with inclosed ears has it's disadvantages, very limited if any ventilation, limited hearing, which is why I went for the open version.
POC and Sweet rely on the outer hard shell to provide the protection rather than the normal polystyrene covered in a hard skin. By far the hard shell is the better solution, much more in keeping with Motorsport and motorbike helmets.


Interesting ....... would have though that in Motorsport you are generally traveling at higher speeds and hitting harder surfaces which you scrap along for longer distances. (people normally hit hard pistes when skiing rather than rocks). I was under the impression that as with a car's crumple zone - the hardest helmet is not the best but the one that absorps the impact is, even if it crumples in the process.
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DB, The hard shell dissipates the impact forces throughout the shell whereas a polystyrene helmet absorbs the force purely by compression at the point of impact. the hard shell helmet still has the absorbent material on the inside, but this is used more efficiently due to the impact force being spread across a larger area.
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Quote:

Summarising:

POC and Sweet make tough helmets.

Race helmets with ears covered are probably better than ears out helmets.

Is that a fair summary?


I'd change it to...

POC and Sweet make helmets that are claimed to be theoretically tougher but there is no evidence to back this up other than anecdotal reports from individual users.

Race helmets with ears covered are required by the FIS for certain events but there is no evidence they are better than ears out helmets for everyday skiiers and having ears covered may affect hearing required for accident avoidance (but again there is no evidence for this).

Not as pithy, memorable or decisive but that's helmets for you. Probably best just to get one that fits and makes you feel comfortable both physically and mentally.
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Flet©h, damn, now I've no idea at all Puzzled
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Quote:

Does the cost make a difference to quality, ignoring branding?



From what I have seen Toofy Grin

The US standards are slightly tougher than the EU ones so look for a Helmet that passes both

Race Standards are higher

The age old question about brands and price is very relevant with helmets as many come out of the same factories, the classic is you can get a good UVEX un branded helmet for £20 where as the UVEX branded one is £100 plus for the same helmet Shocked
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My helmet is over five years old now, thinking of replacing it as it has taken a few knocks ( mostly in the bags when on the plane)

Been thinking of a MIPS helmet http://mipshelmet.com/home, the tech looks convincing but does it really help ? Luckily for me both the sweet and giro helmets fit so is it worth paying extra for the MIPS ?
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2planks wrote:
Been thinking of a MIPS helmet... the tech looks convincing but does it really help ?


"It depends" wink

It seems like a clear winner in situations where you're striking high-friction objects at an angle. Skiiers and ski slopes are not notably high friction, and the objects that skiiers might meet that are (trees, rocks), are often encountered with sufficient force that all the fancy helmet technology in the world won't save you.

All else being equal, you may as well get it. If you're not touring, its usefulness will be limited and the price premium you pay for it might not be worth it.

Edit: MIPS is also an interesting example of tech that race helmets, for all their other fancy features (like the shock-absorbing VPD panels in the new POC Orbic Comp) don't have. Serious gate bashing seems like it might not play well with the way MIPS works.
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Bones, Ge crashed at somewhere north of 140Kph helmet did it's job perfectly absorbing most of the initial impact. Very few people in skis would have a fall half as bad as that one
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Yes, some helmets are indeed better than others. The German AA equivalent, the ADAC, tested several helmets in the past. Unfortunately the latest test was back in 2009 I think so probably most models will no longer be available. I actually posted the links to those tests here but the info did not get much positive feedback back then so can't be bothered to repost again (use the search function). In essence there were 1-2 helmets which failed the tests and some exceeded the standard. I guess now with the Schumi accident there will be new helmet tests in the pipeline for the 2015 season.
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Freddie Paellahead wrote:
Flet©h, damn, now I've no idea at all Puzzled


There's no evidence because no-one's done the test, but that doesn't mean that they aren't better either - it's just not been proven.

It would be possible for manufacturers to put helmets though some of the more stringent tests available, but to do it properly through the various regulatory bodies would add so much cost (ski market is much smaller than cycling, for example) that the helmets would become really exorbitant.
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Lots of talk of POC and Sweet but from a bit of real world testing I have observed Giro make good helmets too..

Bike friend came off his bike and hit the only lamppost in a million miles with some force with his and despite a good stint in A&E to make sure nothing too bad happened, he was good
Another skiing friend decided it would hurt less to slow down against a tree with her head rather than leg and smashed hers - mild concussion but again mostly long-term unscathed (I was standing above the said tree at the time so can attest to the force and bang!).

Both resulted in helmet destruction, but they did what they were meant to (and destruction is by design)


That said I now have a POC Backcountry Receptor with MIPs and all, likewise my son has a POC Pocito, and I'll probably shortly be replacing that with a POC racing helmet.

Not sure with the weight restrictions you could really go wild with safety. There is also the how much do you add to your head dilemma as it increases torque on the neck - lots of hard core biking out here with much more head meets rock potential, but still pondering if it is a good idea for my son to have a full face helmet (for XC at least)
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Scott have been using MIP's for the last two seasons in some of their helmets. The commercial downside is that MIP's adds approx £30 to the price of a helmet which puts a lot of people off purchasing. Before that Scott had a couple of Biomex models that were super protective of the soft spots on the skull (Biomex was developed by a sports rehabilitation centre). You pay for what you get in this world and would like to think that in an accident a £150 helmet would be better protection than a £50 helmet and a £50 helmet would be better than no protection at all - that choice is ours. Like many sports skiing has accidents, some more serious than others, on a daily basis over the winter months. It takes a high profile figure like Natasha Richardson or Michael Schumacher to make it headlines in the media and forums like this but for sure some of us will buy helmets for the first time and others will upgrade their older models for newer technologies that are available.
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Thanks snowman.
For those that are interested, here is the link to the 2010 ADAC testing of 16 helmets - unfortunately (for me) it's in German:
http://www.adac.de/infotestrat/tests/fahrrad-zubehoer-sport/skihelme_2010/default.aspx?tabid=tab1
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