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Michael Schumacher "Gravely injured" in Meribel

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Quote:

Why do people complain about the content of this thread, rather than simply stop reading it?


Because I wanted to read a thread about my childhood hero's accident not listen to a bunch of under-informed brits rave about headwear. I wouldnt mind at all if this wasn't the hundredth time this has happened... I stand by my suggestion, a helmets only chapter!
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The latest Michael Schumacher news is: "No news"
He's not dead, but very seriously injured and in a coma so not much is happening right now.
And his family, rightly, are not going to give us running commentary.

It seems he was going quite slowly and it was an unlucky trip on a hidden rock and he even more unluckily landed on his head on another (possibly spikey) rock. A freak accident, although he was skiing through an area of rocks and boulders at the time so in the event of a fall there he could have reasonably expected to hurt himself. Still in (say) 99 out of 100 similar falls skiing slowly in that area you would not expect not break a bone and maybe 999 out of 1000 you would not expect to break your helmet and your head.
Does that make him unlucky? I'd say yes.
On the other hand it looks like he is lucky - lucky that his helmet and some swift, expert medical treatment seem to have made the difference between life and death.
Let's hope he makes a full recovery.
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This from (a particularly vacuous and insensitive article in) The Daily Mail:
"Speculation is mounting that French prosecutors may be preparing charges against the operators of the piste where Schumi came a cropper."

[Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2534601/Stricken-Michael-Schumacher-distributing-750million-fortune-three-years-horrific-skiing-accident.html#ixzz2pdDbV8Ww]

Well I was waiting for that: we can turn the thread from helmets to "they should have marked the hazards better, marked the edge of the piste better etc and could those orange safety nets like they have in downhill racing have saved him?" etc
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Another helmet article that kicks off with the Schumacher incident. This time Henry Druce, Editor of Telegraph Ski and Board - he'd like to see absolutely everyone wearing a lid. Best of luck.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/snowandski/features/10552987/Ski-helmets-isnt-it-time-we-all-wore-one-on-the-slopes.html
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Quoting from that article ...

Quote:
My personal conversion to helmets came after a week’s learning to snowboard in Morzine, banging my head on the piste one too many times.


I think one or two conclusions could be drawn from that sentence.

Maybe Henry Druce would grace this page to inform us whether he has seriously looked at 'risk compensation' and 'sensory deprivation' as potential factors explaining why serious head injuries have not declined during the period that helmet sales have boomed. This paragraph ...

Quote:
The sticky problem is that there is no official evidence showing that since more people started wearing helmets, the number of head injuries have decreased. Some skiers and snowboarders simply do not wish to wear one as they claim it feels restrictive or limits their sense of freedom when flying down the slopes. Others suggest that wearing one emboldens you to go faster and be more reckless. There might be some truth in this but it’s very hard to prove.


... doesn't cut the mustard at all. What is "official evidence"? How about the scientific evidence?

If serious head injuries (Michael Schumacher's being an example) are not declining then the case for lids isn't proven at all.
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And the Telegraph have also been asking retailers what effect Schumi's accident is having: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/snowandski/skiing-news/10548783/Schumachers-ski-crash-prompts-helmet-sales-spike.html
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Quote:
My personal conversion to helmets came after a week’s learning to snowboard in Morzine, banging my head on the piste one too many times.


Having hit your head just once surely you'd say to yourself "I really must stop doing that" or "I'd better get some protection because I'm bound to do that again". To continue protected or unprotected when you know what's about to happen again, is just mental.
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dulcamara wrote:
Quote:

Why do people complain about the content of this thread, rather than simply stop reading it?


Because I wanted to read a thread about my childhood hero's accident not listen to a bunch of under-informed brits rave about headwear. I wouldnt mind at all if this wasn't the hundredth time this has happened... I stand by my suggestion, a helmets only chapter!


Then maybe you should visit an F1 forum for that sort of news. It is only natural we will be discussing this on her from the point of view of a skier.
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dulcamara wrote:
not listen to a bunch of under-informed brits rave about headwear


Damn those Brits, eh? Clearly, no-one has told them that they should defer to all other nationalities on matters of hats Puzzled

jamescollings wrote:
We didn't have to replace our helmets during a game, or even after each game.. in fact, we'd probably go 2 or 3 seasons before considering a new "lid". We were also able to take major impacts without loss of consciousness. So why aren't people using American Football helmets when they ski?


Different padding materials. A football helmet that couldn't withstand multiple impacts would be a bit like the proverbial chocolate teapot. Being able to withstand multiple low energy impacts doesn't imply being able to protect against high energy impacts (which is what ski helmet standards test, for better or worse), and it doesn't imply it'll be any good at protecting against concussion either. There's a hell of a lot of research going into preventing concussions in football (are air bladders in helmets any good?) and with any luck there'll be some trickle down into other sports, but football safety gear definitely hasn't solved these problems yet.

The new Giro Combyn uses the same sort of padding material (vinyl nitrile) and even seems to pass the normal ski safety standards, so that's interesting. I think it might be the first helmet of its type to do so.

jamescollings wrote:
Conversely, many people would wear neck-rolls to help stabilise the neck, since it was a "weak point" in the body when the additional weight of a helmet was added to the head... whereas in Skiing I've not yet seen anyone wearing a neck-roll to help counter this issue.


Neck rolls seem to have gone out of fashion, no? Their actual real world usefulness was a matter of debate, it seems. They seem primarily intended to absorb certain kinds of force that the wearer experiences when tackling, something that's a bit less common in skiing, and didn't seem to help very much.

A better example might be to look at full-face helmets and Leatt braces. They'd seem to be an excellent way to prevent neck injuries, but they'll not be much better at preventing concussions and traumatic brain injury than more conventional helmets, and those kinds of injury seem to be a more serious risk to skiiers and snowboarders. Not that I have actual accident figures to hand, mind you.
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De Bild is claiming that whilst Schumacher is still in an induced coma his condition has improved.
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Quote:

and it doesn't imply it'll be any good at protecting against concussion either


Lot of research on sub concussions in football and some major lawsuits I think. It seems repeated hits is no good for you.
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nozawaonsen wrote:
De Bild is claiming that whilst Schumacher is still in an induced coma his condition has improved.


Though Sky are reporting this differently.

"A friend of the 45-year-old's offered a ray of hope of Friday when claiming he had been told by a surgeon that there was no longer a threat to his life.

Speaking outside the hospital former F1 driver Philippe Strieff told reporters: "I'm not a doctor, I'm repeating what Gerard Saillant (surgeon and friend of the Schumacher family) told me.

"He said it is a serious condition but his life is not in danger anymore, thankfully. He is such a healthy man. He's 45, he's young and has always been very fit. He is in top shape physically so there are no reasons why he would not make it."

But the claim drew a furious reaction from Schumacher's management team who insist only official statements released on their behalf should be given credence."
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I' m not sure how being generally fit and healthy is going to help anyone with a head / brain trauma injury ?
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Apparently a French News paper called 'Le Journal du Dimanche' has reported that the results of a brainscan taken on the weekend were not very good at all. Hope he isn't brain damaged.

Source = Autobild.de
http://www.autobild.de/artikel/formel-1-2014-4510822.html
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Anyone with any experience of a substantial brain injury (however it occured) will know that the person who had the accident isn't always the same person who leaves the hospital. Once Michael (hopefully) comes out of the coma, is when the truely hard work will start - Fingers crossed for a good recovery for Michael and his family.
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There was a really good documentary presented by Richard Hammond about brain injury and the life after hospital. He visited and interviewed a handful of others and was very open about his depression and pts and the impact his brain injury has on others around him assuming he was fit.
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A doctor from the CHU - but not a brain surgeon, told me Schumacher had three separate lesions to his brain and in similar cases the outcomes were not positive.
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gryphea, to the point where ex-pro-football players are suffering from poor quality of life and committing suicide in ways that will leave their brains available for research. They basically can end up with cavities in the brain from repeated concussions. Boxers suffer a similar problem as well.
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meh, Yup, saw a horrific documentary about this. Its the same for some NHL players, particularly the enforcers.
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Getting back to the topic. The investigators say that the accident wasn't due to skis or faulty signage.
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Mr Quincy said the probe would take time to establish whether the area where he was skiing could be classed as an "official piste" in French law.

He said Schumacher was "obviously a very good skier" but had not been able to slow himself down in the rocky area of the slope where he fell.

Describing the sequence of events after the former F1 driver went off-piste, he said: "At one point his skis touch a rock, he loses balance and falls forward and his head hits a rock which is 3.5 metres below.

"The rock he hit is eight metres from the edge of the piste and Mr Schumacher on the ground, inanimate, is nine metres from the edge of the piste. That's the information we have with regard to the inquiry."

Early viewings of the helmet camera footage appear to confirm this sequence of events, he added.
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Update:

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/jan/08/michael-schumacher-accident-camera-footage

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/motorsport/formulaone/michael-schumacher/10557894/Michael-Schumacher-accident-French-police-give-first-full-account-of-the-crash.html
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"Helmet-cam shows Schumacher skiing at 'very low speed'"

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/news/formula-1-schumacher-skiing-39-low-speed-39-235322658--f1.html

So helmets don't protect you in a worthwhile fashion at all?
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BBC seems to have a different perspective :- http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25651852

"Footage from Michael Schumacher's helmet camera shows him travelling at the speed of "a very good skier on fairly hard terrain" when he hit a rock and fell, investigators say."

and

"They said the 45-year-old "did not really look at reducing his speed when he went off piste"."
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I have noticed that in the original report the bbd didn't translate the french press conference very well. I think that has happened this time as well. The guy said they couldn't tell from the helmet the exact speed. Experts are trying to work it out although they weren't looking at speed as a factor in the investigation.
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James the Last,
Quote:

So helmets don't protect you in a worthwhile fashion at all?


Boring, boring, boring. rolling eyes
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bruisedskier, +1
far too many self important 'helmets' on this thread
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Quote:

So helmets don't protect you in a worthwhile fashion at all?


Just saying but Prof Jean-Francois Payen said if Schumacher wasn't wearing a helmet he would be dead now... you can read/listen to that here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25548140

To think a helmet won't protect you is just as stupid as to think a helmet makes you invincible. A helmet lowers the risk of death from a fall in which you bang your head. It's risk mitigation (IMHO) and that's why I wear one.

Each to there own and all but I don't get the argument that helmets are pointless and your just as safe not wearing as you are wearing one.

My Father in Law is a very keen cyclist and if he wasn't wearing a helmet he would have had a serious head injury when a white van ran over him in Bradford, instead of a serious head injury (to go with his broken shoulder, wrist and ankle) he had a mild concussion. The helmet was trashed but it did it's job when needed, the impact would have been on his temple so the doctors said it's likely it would have been a skull fracture (at best).

Sorry if thats a bit ranty, and I know it's a never ending argument but it's my 2p.
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James the Last,
Quote:

"Helmet-cam shows Schumacher skiing at 'very low speed'"


A report I've just heard on MSN said nothing of the sort. It said the investigators can't tell what speed he was doing but believe he was trying to slow down.

And isn't it about time the anti-helmet lobby just gave it a rest.
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mozwold wrote:
James the Last,
Quote:

"Helmet-cam shows Schumacher skiing at 'very low speed'"


A report I've just heard on MSN said nothing of the sort. It said the investigators can't tell what speed he was doing but believe he was trying to slow down.

And isn't it about time the anti-helmet lobby just gave it a rest.


yes, i think its time that users on both side of the fence stopped trying to change others. Its worse than the historical "skiiers v snowboarders".
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eddiethebus,

Quote:

yes, i think its time that users on both side of the fence stopped trying to change others.


I don't really want to bang on about helmets and so this will be my last post on it however, I can recall a personal experience where a helmet prevented a possible death / more serious (my father in law) albeit cycling, and in this Schumacher incident it's been stated by doctors treating him he would have been dead without a helmet yet with a helmet he is still alive albeit with a serious head injury.

I'm sure others can recall incidents where wearing a helmet has either prevented a death and / or reduced or prevented an head injury vs not wearing a helmet.

I'm sure no one can recall incidents where wearing a helmet has caused the wearer of the helmet to die or receive a more serious head injury vs not wearing a helmet.


That's why I'm amazed people will still try and claim helmets don't work, you can quote all the figures you like about the number of injuries etc but the above is what I think.

Now if someone makes an informed choice not to wear a helmet that's up to them and I have no issue it, but I hate to see people quote statistics and studys about how helmets don't work etc. and all the helmet wearers are wrong etc.

I urge people to read the bit in bold and then make your choice, if you still don't want to wear a helmet that's fine, it's your choice, I won't have a go at you for it, but don't tell me I'm wrong cos I choose to wear one.

Not trying to be aggressive and ranty if it comes off like that it's just a issue I feel strongly about.

For the record my dad doesn't wear a helmet skiing despite me trying to convince him, he's aware of the risk but he's made his choice and I respect that and no longer badger him about it.
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impingu1984 wrote:


I'm sure no one can recall incidents where wearing a helmet has caused the wearer of the helmet to die or receive a more serious head injury vs not wearing a helmet.

but the above is what I think.



But the above is not universally true.
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I feel like going to the nearest brick wall and banging my head against it. Without a helmet. Would someone on either side please at least say something NEW!!! Twisted Evil
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impingu1984,
Quote:

I'm sure no one can recall incidents where wearing a helmet has caused the wearer of the helmet to die or receive a more serious head injury vs not wearing a helmet.

Without getting to precious about it. There are several possible reasons for this.
Firstly and most importantly people recall things that happen to them not things that don't happen to them. If you have died or received a significant head injury you tend to have no recall.
Secondly If there is an element of risk compensation every time you go out without a helmet and don't crash the lack of helmet may have saved your life you just don't recall it that way.

However your overall premise is something I strongly agree with chacun a son gout and lets not prescribe what others should or should not do.
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Quote:


impingu1984 wrote:


I'm sure no one can recall incidents where wearing a helmet has caused the wearer of the helmet to die or receive a more serious head injury vs not wearing a helmet.

but the above is what I think.



Quote:


James the Last wrote:,

But the above is not universally true.



I don't want to get sucked in to an argument but i'm intrigued. Are you saying you can recall an incident where someone had a head injury that would have been prevented or less serious if they HADN'T wore a helmet? Either through personal experience or a documented case (link please if so)
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I know a guy who smashed his knee against the peek of his helmet and had to have constructive surgery on his knee. Never would have happened without this particular style of helmet.

he doesnt wear a helmet any more.
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T Bar,

Quote:

Firstly and most importantly people recall things that happen to them not things that don't happen to them. If you have died or received a significant head injury you tend to have no recall.


I can agree on that from a first person perspective, however my experience from a third person perspective was my father in law, cycling (but this debate has raged in cycling circles too). To be told by the doctors the helmet made a significant difference in reducing his injury and basically saved him from a serious injury I can recall that perfectly. He couldn't remember the impact but his friends in the cycle club could as they witnessed it, one in fact decided to buy a helmet after the incident.

In parallel to some skiing incidents the driver of the van drove off and the police didn't do a thing a about it despite having it on CCTV and a partial reg no, and independent witnesses from a bus stop just next to incident.

I'm leaving my soapbox now. Sorry all.
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If ski helmets really made sense you can be sure that people would have worn them 35 years ago (around the time we were selling hundreds of helmets to parents of skateboarders, or skateboarders themselves, from a famous ski/skate shop in South Kensington - Alpine Sports).

The big irony is that skateboarders don't seem to wear helmets much any longer, be they teenagers or adults.

Head injuries are a very low risk in skiing.

When the weather's nice in spring - often over zero, when the snow goes humid and granular to spring snow - nothing's nicer than having your head in the open air (no hat either) and the wind flowing through your hair.

People seem to have forgotten that pleasure!
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eddiethebus,

Quote:


I know a guy who smashed his knee against the peek of his helmet and had to have constructive surgery on his knee. Never would have happened without this particular style of helmet.

he doesnt wear a helmet any more.


Injury to the knee isn't a head injury... I accept its unlucky tho.

Although smashing your knee against your head can hurt your head too.
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Comedy Goldsmith,

Quote:

People seem to have forgotten that pleasure!


No I do miss that. Vents don't have the same effect.
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