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ski boot issues (fit guarantee / custom liners) - advice sought

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Looking for some advice on some new boots I purchased a few weeks back.

After nearly 8-years of service from my old boots, I decided to get some new boots - so booked into a specialist fitter near me.
Fitting process was very thorough and I walked away with a pair of shiny new boots. However, on my first ski trip with them (a couple of weeks back) I ended-up with severe pain across the rear of the lower-calf/achilles. It seems that there is a ridge/join in the rear of the liners which digs in (particularly when walking, skating, standing - but eventually started to affect my skiing too). It got so bad that by the end of the week I gave-in and hired some boots (cr@p things, but at least I could ski).

On returning to the shop under their 'comfort guarantee scheme, the fitter seemed a little non-plussed by the problems I'd been experiencing (apparently thousands of this particular boot had been sold over the years with no issues of this kind). A few different reasons were given as to why the pain may have occurred (shape of my lower leg; not undoing the boots buckles whilst not skiing/walking; too much walking in the boots; etc.). In the end I've been offered an exchange (less a hire charge) or a custom liner (at additional cost c. £150) .... so a fair chunk of additional cost either way, on top of the money already spend on the boots/fitting charge

Honestly not sure of the right way to go on this. Are custom liners complete overkill for someone who only skis 3/4 weeks a year, or are they a worthwhile investment?

I have a quite a slim lower-leg / ankle / heel area, so often have issues with heal-lift and inadequate hold from boots I've had in the past (this problem seemed to be manifesting itself in my new boots as the liners started to pack-down after the first couple of days of skiing) - which it sounds like a custom liner may help with too(?) So I guess I could be killing two-birds with one stone with this option.

Anyway, enough babbling from me - any advice would be greatly appreciated.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
I'm a bit surprised if they did a very thorough fitting you didn't get a custom liner in the first place. What did they do during the fitting? Sounds like they are making excuses to me, that thorough fitting should have taken account of the shape of your lower leg, I don't need to undo the buckles on my boots when I stop and just how much walking were you doing? I guess on the latter from hotel to lift at each end of the day and from ski rack to cafe/bar on the slopes so not much!
And certainly if you've had boots fitted they shouldn't be giving you heel lift after a couple of days. I'd suggest going back and telling them you've already paid to have your boots fitted so please do it properly!
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Nope, I've never needed to unbuckle in the past either. Walking-wise - yup, just between the hotel and bus stop and ski rack and mountain restaurant/toilet.

On the heel-lift - they suggested heal wedges/lifts. There was also a bit said about lack of flexibility in the calves/Achilles which may mean I'm standing too straight with not enough ankle flex (which apparently means my heel wouldn't be fully placed back in the heel pocket of the boot). Can't really comment on this as the original fitter said that my ankle flex was good and it hasn't been raised by any instructor I've had in recent years.

In fairness to the shop, they did give an option of a custom liner at the original fitting - but as I'd already spend £150 on the fitting charge alone, I have to be honest that I didn't fancy parting with an additional £150 (in hindsight this may have been short sighted/tight-fisted on my part).
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Ouch! Still sounds to me like the fitter didn't do their job right if the first one said the opposite to they are saying now about flex and bringing up new problems I think should have been picked up at the outset. Was it one of the big chains or an independent? Sounds a bit off as well they are asking for more cash (who is to say a different boot would be any better) to sort out a problem they missed (if it is a flex issue)
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Firstly, did you pay as one transaction? If yes it is the same sale so you will be covered by the same legislation. If you are generous you can allow them to fix it for free. I would not part with any more cash.

They charged you a fitting service and should have said..... Fitting is £150, we recommend a liner at £150 and the boot will cost £250 for a properly fitting boot. Are you happy with the cost of this package.

They then sold you a product that they knew was not fit for purpose. You have the right to return the goods for a full refund under the sale of goods act (SOGA).

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1979/54
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006mg74/features/consumer-law-sale-of-goods
http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/sale-of-goods-act

At the end of the day, they always had the option to "not" sell it to you. Remember that.

If they say things like... "Well the other boot fitter should not have said this"..... or the fitter should have made it more clear etc etc etc then that is their internal training problem. Not your problem.

If they say, we cant take back goods that are worn because we did tell you to take a liner then remember "again".

"they always had the option to "not" sell it to you" It is not fit for purpose.


Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Sat 28-12-13 16:11; edited 1 time in total
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I assume they have checked that there is not a manufacturing fault with the boot - I have seen this before. Are you in pain in both feet? It might be worth providing the boot make and model
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Oh and yep, I don't think 'giving an option' of a custom liner gets them off the hook! If they think it is essential they should have said so (as glasgowcyclops says they have knowingly sold you a pair of boots that won't perform. If not then sounds like they are grasping at straws safe in the knowledge you've had this years skiing so might well not be in a position to see it there proposed fix works for another year!
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
I'm not a bootfitter but I've had several pairs of problem boots and it sounds like they're either too big or the wrong last width for your foot. If you've got heel lift after a week of skiing in them then after 6-8 weeks they'll be like old slippers and useless. Have you done a shell check yourself? If you have remotely normal ankle flex your heel should be all the way back; if it's not it's the wrong boot for you. Wouldn't surprise me if the pain you've got is a rear version of shin-bang - subcutaneous bruising caused by heel/ankle slop in the fit.

Reckon you're being fobbed off - go and see another boot fitter (maybe CEM) for an unbiased assessment and if they are unsuitable insist on a full refund as not fit for purpose.

I suppose the only other thing could be that you didn't have them done up tightly enough and that created some slop. I don't subscribe to the "undoing them at lunch, lifts and for walking" view because that causes blisters. If they fit properly you should be able to do them up tight at the beginning of the day and never loosen them again till you take them off (perhaps the instep clips for extra comfort at lunch but ankle/shin clips shouldn't be necessary). However if they were too loose and the liner not bedded in you could bruise your ankle for sure.

My view on new boots is that you should keep tightening up the 2 leg clips (especially the ankle but keep them balanced) until your foot starts to go numb and then back it off a turn or so to restore circulation - that's as tight as you can realistically go until they pack down a bit and then repeat.

Would help if you named the boots (and the fitters) so someone more knowledgeable can give you a view on whether it's a suitable last shape for someone with a narrow lower leg.
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abj, very interesting. I am guessing from the details that you are maybe talking about Profeet? Who are indeed well regarded.

I am not a bootfitter.

It feels to me that a custom liner is probably overkill, if you are happily skiing around in rentals and all other boots you have owned. That begs the question of whether any boot you have had previously has been properly fitted??

It also sounds more like a manufacturing defect in the liners (not at all unknown) or something weird with the shell (equally, not beyond the realms of possibility).

- is it both legs? Could you be deformed? In which case a good fitter should have noticed your weirdness.

- if it seems like a weird seam or other protruberance which is definitely not a manufacturing defect, I would have thought dealing with that would be better - grinding/cutting/padding.

Maybe get a second opinion elsewhere independently, or ask to see someone else in the shop.
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Thanks for the replies.

Boot is the Atomic Hawx 120.
Can't decide whether to name the shop in case they read/use the forum and get shirty with me over it ... afterall still need to 'work with them' to resolve the issue. But it's a well recommended London independent fitter (not S&R, EB, etc.).

I guess it is possible I didn't have the boots buckles cranked-up enough - but I've always gone on the 'only tight enough so that you only have to use two-fingers to close the buckles' philosophy.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
abj, "I guess it is possible I didn't have the boots buckles cranked-up enough"

Sounds unlikely to me.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
For what its worth I have Hawx 100s and they are great, they came with a custom fit liner as standard which EB (at Tamworth fridge and a very knowledgeable fitter unlike most of the chain high street ones) custom moulded as part of the ticket price. sounds like the right tightness on the buckles for me and in case would guess you probably tightened them if they felt too slack during the day.
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abj,

I'm with Raceplate on this. Do a shell check, explained @ circa 3:00 of this clip.


http://youtube.com/v/ZIdmjfiL8Z4

If the shell is too big, custom liners are not the solution - smaller, better fitting ski boots are.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
abj wrote:
Thanks for the replies.

Boot is the Atomic Hawx 120.
Can't decide whether to name the shop in case they read/use the forum and get shirty with me over it ... afterall still need to 'work with them' to resolve the issue. But it's a well recommended London independent fitter (not S&R, EB, etc.).

I guess it is possible I didn't have the boots buckles cranked-up enough - but I've always gone on the 'only tight enough so that you only have to use two-fingers to close the buckles' philosophy.


Dont name the shop. Give them a chance to rectify the problem.

But dont pay for a liner. If they consider you indeed need one then remember they charged you 150 fitting service.

Either they rectify the problem or you get a full refund under the sale of goods act.

When dealling with things like this, always follow up a visit with an email like this.

Dear GS

Thank you for the help today in rectifying my boot problem.

From our discussions, we decided XY and Z was the reason and the actions to be taken are A,B and C.

If this is not correct them please email and we can decide on how we proceed.

Yours


That way you have a time line. Under the SOGA. The longer you wait can affect the money you would get back. And this is a grey area.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
I am yet another non-bootfitter. Unless the shells are right for you a custom liner is not going to help. There's a difference between the kind of pain you get from e.g. shin bang, or a bit of a scrobble in your sock, and the sort of pain you'd expect from an ankle flex problem (one is superficial and localised, the other more "internal" and could be anywhere in the muscles affected. Was it both legs? Was there a visible mark on your skin? My daughter had shin problems with her last but one pair of boots and within a day she had severely rubbed skin on the shins - another day and the skin would have been broken. Did the pain go away completely when you took the boots off?
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
a few facts that might help

1 shell check, see what it is? heel lift is normally a sign of either a boot a bit big or too high volume around the heel/ankle area, it can also come from a tight calf muscle or from super skinny ankles and no boot holding them (in this case a custom liner is a useful tool)
2 a custom liner is a good investment for someone skiing 3 or more weeks a season, occasionally for someone skiing less if there are issues with foot shape, normally it is something i offer to my clients who ski a lot, some take it at the outset some ski the stock liner for a bit to see how it goes, the option to upgrade is always there, it is not however a solution if the shell has too much volume/is too big in the first place
3 there is a line of stitching across the back of the hawx liner (like on many boots), occasionally it catches on the achilles, it is not a fault, just some people find it uncomfortable, depending on the exact liner, sometimes removal of the stitching can work, but there is the risk that if not done properly it can cause the liner to fall apart. each individual is different and the boot is mass produced

regardless of the cause, (unless it is proven to be a faulty liner (note we are no longer doing atomic's warranty inspections)) comfort is NOT covered under the sale of goods act, it is a perceived thing, one persons comfort and another persons comfort are completely different things, like wise not fit for purpose! it is a ski boot which unless it doesn't fit into a binding or clip up etc etc is perfectly fit for the purpose of skiing... which takes you back to comfort.

we have had this discussion with trading standards and lawyers in the past and each time they side with the retailer, assuming you were present at the time of the fitting, you had the opportunity to say, these aren't comfortable and therefore not what i want, or there is a pain here what can we do about it.

so i would't go down that route... what is a lot more successful is working with the fitter to get a resolution (i know that if i see someone with a problem who wants help we will try to help them, those who just want to scream and shout don't get far and normally end up just winding themselves up and looking like a fool)... no "fitter" that i know actively goes out to sell anyone a boot which does not work, you are dealing with the human foot, people change, their level of fitness and flexibility changes, their tolerance to compression or hold changes too.

so, check the shell check, discuss with the store and don't get too stressed about it, all they should want to do is help you and sort the problem so you can write on here how well they handled it and all is good in the world
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
abj,
I have had a similar problem with my atomic liners.
That seam was just in the wrong place for my Achilles. Nicely in line with a blood vessel, my first trip with them left of with numb feet for a while.

Of course you can't tell how a boot will feel after 3 days of skiing during the fitting. I'm sure that on almost all liners, there will be people that have issues.

A bit of customising of the liner (removal of a useless bit of plastic) helped but the stitching was still digging in. Not having the time to get back to my fitter, I removed the stitching and of course the liner eventually started to come apart.
I have since replaced my liners and am very happy as the boot is and always was well fitted.

Speak to your fitter first and I'm sure they can either modify the liner or the shell just behind that point.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
CEM, Interesting Colin. I didn't know of the perception thing.

I recently encountered the SOGA when discussing a watch problem i had. We dont sell watches but have a large consumer department that i asked.
However that was a simple ........ It is not working problem.....
I can speculate but you are an expert in this area. Just the same as im knowledgeable in another area.

However. In the end im sure the shop will sort it.
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Firstly, thanks for all the replies.

CEM, DB, will definitely do my own shell check. The guy that originally fitted me seemed on the ball so I'm hopeful that i haven't ended up with too small a shell.

I do have a skinny lower leg / ankle - so this could be a reason for the heel lift (which was happening mainly on my left / smaller foot). So, assuming that the shell is correct - maybe a custom liner is worth a try.

As for the painful ridge / stitching in the rear of the boot - I had guessed that this might be a tricky issue to resolve. They did try swapping the liner for a fresh one in the shop but same problem was there - so I guess I've been unlucky on this front and it's just he shape of my Achilles vs. the construction of the liner.

Will do the shell check and book another appointment to try and get it all sorted. Will post back with an update.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
However, on my first ski trip with them (a couple of weeks back) I ended-up with severe pain across the rear of the lower-calf/achilles. It seems that there is a ridge/join in the rear of the liners which digs in (particularly when walking, skating, standing - but eventually started to affect my skiing too). It got so bad that by the end of the week I gave-in and hired some boots (cr@p things, but at least I could ski).

I have the same problem with the stitching in the liner, very poor build quality.
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had masses of problems with Atomic liners in the M series, now the Hawks series, where the softer lower part of the liner is stitched to the plastic upper, often stitched an angle thus creating a bar at the back of the Achilles. Short term, quick fix is to cut the stitching at this join and bend the liner the opposite direction, long term, Atomic replace them, no quibbles, over and over and over again until you get one without the issue.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Buy boots in Decathlon, you can take them back up to a year later even if you use them !
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
You mentioned the shop has a comfort guarantee scheme. What is the wording of this comfort guarantee?
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