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How to find fast and safe pistes?

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Hi All,

We just got back from some early season skiing. According to my iphone app we were topping out at 50mph which strikes me as pretty fast. I was wondering how best to go about mitigating the risks of going fast?

Is there any specific discussion or documentation of how safe different pistes are? (other than the blue/red/black gradings)? There often seems to be dangerous features (e.g. rocks/trees on the outside of a bend) amongst otherwise very safe pistes, but no clear communication of the risks until you're on top of them?

It would be great to find red/black pistes from a technical point of view, that have minimal dangers. Is there a way of going about finding them other than by trial and error?

Thanks,

mnbv
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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mnbv, scream loudly and wave your arms around . . . that usually clears a path for me . . . or am I doing something wrong? Blush
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If the hazards you mention are causing a problem you are probably going too fast for the piste you are on given your knowledge of it!
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Masque, I thought it was the others who scream loudly and wave their arms around wink
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If your iphone showed 50 you were probably doing 35 - 40. Unless you repeat the same run several times and even then, phone speeds are very unreliable. To do that speed you will probably be getting ski chatter and will be catching small amounts of air on crests. The best piste I've found for going flat out is near Verbier, it's a black with a totally straight 0.5k run out after a last big downhill section. If you get into a proper tuck on that you should hit 60 at least but if you catch an edge it'll be spectacular Toofy Grin
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mnbv, If you hit a tree you knacker yourself up. If you hit someone else you could end up with a kids death on your conscience. You go as fast as you can turn and emergency brake. Unless you can see that there is 100% no one in front of you as per the piste I mentioned.
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mnbv, You get up early are warmed up and on the FIRST lift, go as far from the resort as possible to get and then the risk is yours and even then you should ski within your and the conditions limits. That's just the one run, after that you knock it back. If you want to go fast, go get race lessons with the schools on the closed piste.

Oh, every run is different every time you ski it so there is no real way to quantify a fixed 'risk factor' for any piste . . . though it is easy to quantify the OOH S**T! factor at the top of quite a few.
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davkt wrote:
If the hazards you mention are causing a problem you are probably going too fast for the piste you are on given your knowledge of it!


This!
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Masque, First tracks on the red world cup run at Zauchensee spring to mind. So much fun, but Christ on a bike, the thigh burn.
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mnbv, If you want to find safe pistes - purely trial and error. This run was lunch time at VT.


http://youtube.com/v/kTTWVBUygyo
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mnbv wrote:
It would be great to find red/black pistes from a technical point of view, that have minimal dangers. Is there a way of going about finding them other than by trial and error?



I suspect this is a troll. If not, two words. "Other skiers".

Said with some feeling as last season I was flattened from behind by an out of control fast skier.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Hi mnbv,

I've been skiing for close to 25 years now and I absolutely love going fast. Luckily, I've never managed to hurt myself seriously (the worst I've ever had is a pulled muscle in my shoulder), but I have had many wipeouts. My record at the moment stands at 72mph (you can see my 64mph run on the same piste here:
http://youtube.com/v/2A6c6FhJmYw - I didn't manage to catch the 72 one on camera Sad ).

I've never seen anything that has helped me to decide on which runs are safe for going fast. For my speed runs, I usually use reds (blacks are often too uneven) and I just make sure of a few things:
1) There is nobody nearby that I could hurt. Use a clear piste.
2) There are no big drops, trees or rocks close to the edge of the run (or on the run!).
3) It must be pisted and fairly even.
4) It cannot be icy.
5) I have been down it a few times before and know the run quite well.
6) It's not one of my first few days (so I've warmed up a bit!).
7) I try to apply as much common sense as possible.

Your 50mph reading is about right, I would say. It is very dependent on the snow though. When the snow is slightly more wet, I will get readings of about 50mph even when really going for it (using a proper GPS device). In good conditions, I usually average about 45mph - 50mph down reds with highs of 60mph - 65mph. The other thing I have noticed is that rental skis are a lot shorter than they used to be. I remember being able to get 200+ rental skis, but I've never found any much above 180cm in recent years.

I usually ski later in the season, but I'm going at the start of February this year, so I hope to beat my record if it is quiet and colder!

As I said, I love going fast, but please make sure you stay safe.

Ian
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thebronsonite, If you are straight lining a red or black in a tuck you will easily pass 60mph. I've stood by the side of the Flying K in Les Arcs watching these guys go above 140mph. But even a decent GPS will have a large error rate on highest speed readings.


https://snowheads.com/the_zone/showphoto.php/data/500/Flying_K_run.MPG

https://snowheads.com/the_zone/showphoto.php/data/500/Flying_K_Partrige.MPG

Puts it all in perspective.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Definitely, if it's long enough.

The guys who go 140+ use slightly different equipment to me though! Their max speed is basically calculated, with special runs made to make sure the record can only be beaten by a few miles per hour every so often. You can read about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_skiing or find it on a more accurate site!

"Speed skiers wear dense foam fairings on their lower legs and aerodynamic helmets to increase streamlining. Their ski suits are made from air-tight latex or have a polyurethane coating to reduce wind resistance, with only a mandatory back protector to give some protection in the case of a crash. The special skis used must be 2.4 metres (94.5 inches) long and maximum 10 cm wide with a maximum weight of 15 kg for the pair. Ski boots are attached to the skis by bindings. The ski poles are bent to shape around the body, and must be a minimum of 1 m long. Speed skiing is practised on steep, specially designed courses one kilometre long. There are approximately thirty of these courses worldwide"

Downhill skiers go 90mph+, but they're going down blacks. I want to be able to go fast, but I also want to be able to ski for the rest of the week too! I'm sure there's not much difference between a bad crash at 90mph on a black and 70mph on a red, but I hope it will help if it ever comes to that!

I'm pretty sure I will have gone over 80 at times, but I've never recorded it (I don't have my GPS recording speed constantly, as I wouldn't have enough battery to record my daily route). And, yes, there will be a margin of error, which is why I always do the run a few times.
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thebronsonite, If you are hitting 80 and then turning you need serious thigh muscles to take the force, most non racers would simply not be able to do more than a couple of them. 100mph has been broken on the DH courses now.

I saw a bloke with one leg do the Les Arcs Flying K speed run, think he hit 135 or 137 mph.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
You used to be able to pay and do the run at 2/3rds height with hired speed skis, some hit 150+kph.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Avalanche Poodle, To quote Billy Connolly, I have "thighs that could crack walnuts". OK, maybe not that impressive, but I have extremely strong legs and frequently push them as much as possible. It comes from years and years of skiing, weights and football! 72 was fairly easy to stop from, but I do try to slow down without doing hard turns before stopping whenever possible. It just makes more sense than slamming on the breaks.

That sounds like great fun. Did you give it a go?
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thebronsonite, Nah, missed the chance when it was open. If you've been an athlete then the G force is no problem Smile I just don't put the training in to be able to do it.
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Some resorts have areas with speed guns you can schuss and see how fast you went. But I dont like this kind of thread re usual reds and black pistes that other skiers are on. Certainly not now that I have kids who ski.

90% of skiers who think they are great going fast are not in control. You can tell by the skidded turns they make. This is not in control. And many of them don't accept that skier below them has right of way and in particular has right to make sudden change of direction.

Try to carve a proper black run like Face de Bellevarde from top to bottom without stopping or skidding. I would say far more challenging than just trying to beat a speed record on their iPhone.
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I certainly agree with peanuthead on most of their comments. It's like driving a car. If you're out of control, slow down until you're in control. If you're putting other people in danger, stop.

However, there are plenty of people who can ski very, very fast, skid as they turn, and still be in complete control (although I find carving to be a much, much nicer way to ski Smile In between my speed runs, I carve and it is delightful!
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thebronsonite, True, I don't believe that I was out of control at any time on the posted vid that I did. And that wasn't trying to go fast, that was playing around with varying radius turns.

peanuthead, True too... enthusiasm often outweighs ability, but if you have a clear view and are prepared to wait for an empty slope... and still be prepared for the unexpected skier exiting a forest etc then go for it. I do a lot of motorbike riding in the Alps, and you don't have the luxury of taking a crash with that game. It teaches you to increase your speed in very small increments and to learn from mistakes. This year one of my mates ground his CBR600 pegs, centre stand and fairing into the deck mid tight 60 - 70 mph bend, it nearly threw him off. Simple mistake, he hadn't adjusted his suspension to cope with the luggage weight and wasn't hanging off the bike enough. Could have killed him Sad
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thebronsonite wrote:
.. The guys who go 140+ use slightly different equipment to me though! Their max speed is basically calculated, with special runs made to make sure the record can only be beaten by a few miles per hour every so often. You can read about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_skiing or find it on a more accurate site!

Or you can talk to someone who's worked at a few speed ski races. But that would deflate your estimation of how fast you can go on a public piste. The FIS deliberately construct the courses to limit the top speed, hence the "record" isn't really the issue, it's the relative speed on the day. The timed section is 100m about 2/3 of the way up the course; the rest is for deceleration.

If you think you're quick, try getting yourself timed, or compete in a race. Otherwise it's just, well, if you think your mobile phone gives accurate speed readings, then you're probably wrong.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
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philwig, Even if you repeat the run and time yourself on a phone or GPS, it is likely that the same altitude drop will result in the same error. As you say, proper speed gun or keep quiet. Then again, I've done 50mph on my mountain bike and have done a few speed gun runs. I'd say a max of 60mph on the slopes is what I've done, full tuck, empty blacks and reds. And it was scary, skis bouncing, getting air on crests etc.
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thebronsonite wrote:

1) There is nobody nearby that I could hurt. Use a clear piste.


How can you possibly know there is nobody ahead, given the amount of ground you will cover at the speeds you are talking about?
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dogwatch wrote:
thebronsonite wrote:

1) There is nobody nearby that I could hurt. Use a clear piste.


How can you possibly know there is nobody ahead, given the amount of ground you will cover at the speeds you are talking about?


First lift?!
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mnbv, where are you skiing this season? -I'd like to avoid it!

And you must spend more time on lifts than enjoying perfecting turns and making the best of the hill and the snow. rolling eyes
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Scrumpy wrote:
mnbv, where are you skiing this season? -I'd like to avoid it!

And you must spend more time on lifts than enjoying perfecting turns and making the best of the hill and the snow. rolling eyes


That's a rather blinkered outlook. That's like a trad climber telling a free soloist who climbs routes without any rope or protection that they must miss out on so much time placing quality gear (protection). It's not worse, it's a different, more intense aspect of the sport. And anyway, one carved turn at high speed feels so much better than ten at snail pace. Wink
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You don't "find" "fast and save" piste.

You contribute to making pistes save(r) by skiing within your abilities and by ensuring that you ski as technically clean as possible. Save speed comes with improved technical ability and controle (and even then it is paramount to always monitor your surroundings, conditions and other people).

As per the FIS code of conduct it is your responsibility not to endanger and ski into people skiing before/below you (thus making your contribution to the safety of any given pist).
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Did I mention "snail's pace"?
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Scrumpy wrote:
Did I mention "snail's pace"?


I'll grant that was somewhat remiss, but I'm sure you can see my point.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
I appreciate the inherent accuracies of a GPs for speed calculations, but I presume there is an inbuilt bias to under-record the actual speed for two reasons:
1. The downhill component of movement is ignored and GPS calculates distance and speed as if the earth is flat. I.e. A vertical descent at terminal velocity will still show as stationary.
2. Because GPS takes fixes every few seconds much of the slalom effect will be ignored and therefore some of the lateral distance travelled will be ignored.

Am I right about this or have I made any mistakes?.
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mnbv, have a word with one of piste security guys, i'm sure they will point you in the right direction.
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Isn't it simple? If you go as fast as you dare on a public piste you are foolhardy UNLESS you are skiing within or at your ability and you are SURE of potential dangers, ie, other skiers, rocks, trees, boilerplate, etc, etc. If you ski as fast as you dare beyond your skills and are unsure of potential dangers on a busy piste, you are not cool. You are a bellend. simples.

I would add that other skiers are often unpredictable so it is therefore impossible to predict what they will do.

No one wants to sanitize skiing so there are no thrills, but common sense is vital. Kids and beginners have as much right to be there as "expert" skiers.
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foxtrotzulu, both of those things are false, GPS does do elevation and modern devices update at a reasonable frequency.

They do typically smooth the results so if you had a very momentary peak speed it might be averaged out a tiny bit but there are other larger problems for very accurate speed reporting by GPS in the mountains.
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Speed is pretty relative thing. Yes I know there will be many jumping on me now, but what the hell... I can ski at 100km/h much more in control then most of people at 40km/h. Most likely this has something to do with me being on skis almost all my life (back in racing days at least once a day from August till end of April, nowadays I still get some 100+ days of skiing every season, plus some 20 or 30 days of going down WC courses for work) and have quite some racing background, and even nowadays I still do as much of possible of between the gate training with WC athletes, while most of people get 5-10 ski days a year... if they are lucky. So no, being 3 times faster then you doesn't mean dangerous by default. When and where can you ski fast? Everywhere Wink Just that sometimes fast means 100+km/h while other times it means 60 or 70km/h.
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primoz, you are probably in 10% who can ski fast and in control. But you must agree 90% of speed maniacs you observe are not in control.
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peanuthead, agree. But as I wrote, most of those people are out of control at low speed already. So even 40km/h is dangerous for some/many of these people. I was trying to say, that number itself doesn't mean anything, as for some 40km/h is deadly speed already, while for others 100km/h is perfectly fine.
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primoz wrote:
peanuthead, while for others 100km/h is perfectly fine.


depending on what everyone else on the piste is doing!
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davkt, precisely! Apart from primoz telling us how big his junk is I don't think that post actually told us anything! Twisted Evil
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primoz, I would be happy to share a piste with you.
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