 Poster: A snowHead
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My niece and party have just arrived, hours late, after an initially good run down. They have done the journey several times before but it has taken them miles out of their way and along a very winding, slow, road. It also involved, at an earlier stage, the Gorge d'Arly road which has been closed for months and is still not fully open so they were diverted off that. And I know from my own experiments locally that Tom Tom doesn't even know where all the roads are - it shows you as being in the middle of nowhere when you are quite clearly on a tarmac road, albeit a little one. The satnav is frightfully useful for telling you, as you proceed north at 115 kph past St Quentin, what time you will reach Calais but as has often been said on SHs it can lead you badly astray in the mountains. It's essential to have a good map in the car unless you are quite sure of your directions. Then as soon as you think "Oops, this doesn't feel quite right" you can pull in and have a look at it.
Poor things, they are exhausted now AND they arrived in the gentle drizzle. the good news is that if it HAD been snowing heavily all day they would have got completely bogged down and could well have got stuck, miles from anywhere, on a road which isn't normally driveable by this time, as it is covered in snow and never ploughed. They have chains, and are very competent with them, but no snow tyres.
So - prepare a route, write down the main waypoints, and if it all seems to be going a bit wrong, don't just plough on regardless, following the satnav.
I wish I could tell them it will be either bright and sunny or snowing heavily; they'd be very happy with either!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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pam w, It's not just sat nav. we were skiing with a couple the other week who asked the car hire person at Geneva for the route to Val d'Isere...and she happily gave them a route over a col that is closed! They didn't notice the signs that said the cols were shut and ended up going through a tunnel (I don't the names of these places) and having to turn back - a 5 hour detour but luckily they weren't charged for the toll at the tunnel as the lady in the booth told them the col was closed and let them turn round to go back.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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holidayloverxx, oh dear. Not a good start to a holiday, is it? I told my niece, a lovely girl, that her grandfather (my father) would have been astonished, and horrified, at the idea of anybody going driving through France - or anywhere else for that matter - without a map. I'm old enough, and old-fashioned enough, to feel that a map is a very good thing to have. I have already bought the map I shall need to drive to Arabba for the Birthday Bash in February - apart from anything else, even if the satnav works fine, people end up with no geographical feel at all for where they are. For me that's part of the enjoyment of the trip - and I'm reading up about the war in the Dolomites to help build that sense of place. You get a lot more value out of a holiday that way.
These days it's easy - you can look at google maps beforehand to get a good idea of distances, directions, jot down details, then you get a feel very quickly for when something is going a bit wrong. Fancy arriving in Gva with no idea where you were going! 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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pam w, My map of Germany & Austria is on my pile of stuff ready for Saturday!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I can't believe Nokia is the only map provider to take closed / snowbound / roadworks etc etc into account in real time?
Having said that it does 'phone home' (data) but cost is negligible as in pennies.
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| Quote: |
| They have done the journey several times before but it has taken them miles out of their way |
errrrmmmm, surely they have taken themselves miles out of their way. Isn't it just common sense not to blindly follow a satnav? If you RTFM you can program in a route with the assistance of a... wait for it... map. Funny how people blame a small electronic box with a screen instead of their own dimness.
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Same goes for maps. A map doesn't know if a road is shut or not.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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^^ TBH, I thought that was all anecdotal cr@p, apart from a few complete prats in the very early days, Sat Nav has been done to death so much, EVERYONE knows the shortcomings.
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Citroen's built in version is terrible. I foolishly used it for GVA to Les Contamines. It told us that the fastest way was to turn off at Bonneville and go over Col des Aravis. It felt like the right direction. GVA to Les C using satnav - 5 hours. Les C back using paper map.......not much more than an hour.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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allanm, Sadly not - it may be the farce book generation but there are warnings on most websites relating to Tignes that the closest pratnav route from GA to Tignes takes you via the Col de Petit San Bernard which is more commonly known as the link piste between La Ros and La Thuile which people fall for every week.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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^^ So it's only on the 'paper' map in the summer then? FFS.
feef Yup. mind Boggles.
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Im really glad you posted this Pam (well I am sorry for your neice though). We are driving to La Tania in January from Lyon and to Les Saisies from Geneva. I wouldn't have even given taking a paper map a second thought as I would have been relying on my satnav so that is a really good tip. Micky isnt keen on driving anyway so I can just imagine if I end up getting us lost! The journey to La Tania will be 10am but the journey to Les Saisies will be from 9pm so will be travelling in the dark. I was even thinking we should maybe stay in Sallanches overnight and drive up first thing in the morning but then that is cutting into ski time.
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You know it makes sense.
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| allanm wrote: |
| ^^ TBH, I thought that was all anecdotal cr@p, apart from a few complete prats in the very early days, Sat Nav has been done to death so much, EVERYONE knows the shortcomings. |
Is that so?
I still come across full-sized lorries attempting to reverse back up a lane when they discover their Satnav-directed rat run won't fit anything bigger than a car.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Bode Swiller, they know it was their fault and they also knew I'd be saying "I told you so" as I have warned against satnavs more than once.
polo99, I wouldn't hesitate to drive up here in the dark if you can get access to your accommodation - check with me on the route nearer the time.
A map doesn't know if a road is shut but they'd not have been on that road if they'd taken the right route anyway - and I'd have warned them.
RachelQ, I've always loved maps, since my father taught me the basics about contours in the Brecon Beacons when I was about 11! And marine charts (and people are starting to rely much too much on electronics in boats, too! ).
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Poster: A snowHead
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| pam w wrote: |
| I'm reading up about the war in the Dolomites to help build that sense of place. You get a lot more value out of a holiday that way. |
I'm surprised at how few people I know would agree with that. I can't imagine going anywhere without knowing a bit of the history, but certainly my work colleagues tend to just want there not to be too big a walk from room to pool (many don't leave the hotel compound even in mainland Europe!).
On your satnav point - last year we used one for the first time driving from Amsterdam to Avoriaz. After Montreux it was directing us up and over what our Michelin atlas described as scenic routes. We chose to follow the shore of the lake to Evian and go from there - when we got to the top, what we took to be the end of the road it directed us to was a couple of metres under snow (it directed us down there on the way back as well). For us the greatest values of satnav are guiding you through complex junctions, which ours did pretty well, giving an estimate of arrival times (so we could phone ahead to tell a hotel we'd be late) and as a km/h speedo which was easier to read than the small numbers on the car one.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I use Microsoft Autoroute on a netbook along with a European Atlas. MSA gives you a proper map and it is great to look around at the surrounding area. The driving time computation is pretty good.
Google Maps with traffic layer on the phone is good for showing real time slow parts of main roads/autoroutes. Of course you need a decent data plan!!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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depends on the mountain. spose most of my mountain driving, blindly following satnav is in austria, where it's lowish down in a valley, and you can't really get lost.
now getting from the autoroute to the other side of Annecy to pick up the road to Albertville, is about the only time my satnav disagreed with commonsense and road signs.
my map doesn't tell me how far or where the next petrol station / pit stop is, nor do road changes/closures change on my paper copy.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
my map doesn't tell me how far or where the next petrol station / pit stop is
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I often use a satnav - fantastic in strange towns, my first experience was finding a specific multi-storey carpark in Bristol, with a 2 year old passenger. But I've never felt the need to ask it to tell me where I could buy fuel though i suppose if I'd had a brainfart and was almost empty it would be very useful.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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We take a map, but follow a satnav that we have spent weeks programming and checking a route for. I don't know how it will function in France, but it is my experience that TomTom's 'real time' traffic information including closed routes, general traffic jams and alternative routes is quite excellent in the UK.
NB. I used to think that nothing could beat me with a map, and I used to be VERY dismissive and derogatory about satnavs. Then I found myself self sufficient in the car with the kids taking them on holiday and places I hadn't been before and got one - best decision I ever made. It's very difficult/dangerous to try an read a map with it balanced on the steering wheel!!!
OK, I didn't resort to that, but I was reliant on a set of instructions poked in the flap of the windscreen sun-shield and that couldn't cope with unexpectedly closed roads either and was still distracting. The satnav with instructions that I can hear is much better.
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Fri 20-12-13 9:37; edited 1 time in total
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pam w, poor them. We rather blindly followed our nagravator last year to a friends house above Samoens and even though I was sure there was no road where it wanted us to go I thought it would be fun to explore. 2kms into a non-reversible track found us with 3kms to go fording gaps in the track...
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NB, don't blindly follow satnavs up the hill from Moutiers to VT though - apply a bit of common sense and stick to the main roads rather than take the suggested route that knocks a corner off - I've never taken it, but it does look awfully steep!!
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| pam w wrote: |
A map doesn't know if a road is shut but they'd not have been on that road if they'd taken the right route anyway - and I'd have warned them.
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What is the right route, and why would you be more likely to have taken that if you're using a map instead of a satnav in an area you don't know?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Satnavs are a great invention, the key is to use them properly. I feel sorry for the OP's niece - a tiring long journey is not nice when compounded with frustration.
The trick is, as many have said here, it to let the satnav guide you (clue's in the name - navigation by satellite). What you mustn't do, is let it choose the route. It's fine for local running about around town, but for longer journeys a map needs to be consulted. The device can't know likely traffic (it can get real time data but it can't guess "choke points" and it can't work out seasonal variations: you'll know just by looking at the map that you'll need to go miles out of the way because the wee wiggly mountain road will be a piste.
So, for all those relying on one for the holiday/ski season: take a few moments to program some waypoints in and then let it do its stuff.
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| Quote: |
^^ So it's only on the 'paper' map in the summer then? FFS.
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They do actually very clearly give the dates the Petit st Bernard is closed and warn about the risk of other closures.
I find the sat nav great fun. The one on my wife's car (a VW Columbus) is forever telling you to do a U turn when possible on mountain roads (it hates hairpin bends) and bear right up farm tracks. And it still does not recognise the Rheims bypass. Remember what it says is only advice and not compulsory.
pam w, it was only recently that I discovered how close the Austrians came to wiining in NE Italy
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| johnE wrote: |
| Quote: |
^^ So it's only on the 'paper' map in the summer then? FFS.
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They do actually very clearly give the dates the Petit st Bernard is closed and warn about the risk of other closures.
I find the sat nav great fun. The one on my wife's car (a VW Columbus) is forever telling you to do a U turn when possible on mountain roads (it hates hairpin bends) and bear right up farm tracks. And it still does not recognise the Rheims bypass. Remember what it says is only advice and not compulsory.
pam w, it was only recently that I discovered how close the Austrians came to wiining in NE Italy |
The average road atlas doesn't give that sort of info tho. Certainly, a more detailed, local map might, but I don't have one of those.
maps, sat-nav, compass, sextant, the sun and your watch.. they are all tools, and none of them are foolproof unless you know how to use them.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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About ten years ago I lived - briefly - close to a junction of the M11 where I was the nearest building to the junction. You wouldn't believe the numbers of people who would knock on the door and ask whether they're going the right way to Birmingham/wherever (usually Birmingham or Bradford, it has to be said, but far from always). "Don't you have a map?" I would always ask. And the answer was invariably 'No'. I tended to suggest they go and buy one at the nearby garage.
Nothing to do with satnavs.
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I have used sat nav more than once to find fuel when I was getting low - I was aiming to get to the airport and fill up there but cut it too fine on one occasion. I update the map 4 times a year, but I did get caught out by roadworks at Salzburg airport the other year when the suggested route..which appeared to be sensible (i could see the motorway)... ended up at the river bank!. I find the live traffic invaluable as well as being able to find points of interest - I decided to go to Ikea in Milton Keynes on the spur of the moment the other day; I could have looked up the address on my phone then plug ii the post code, but sat nav had the location as a point of interest. I use that feature to find hotels, theatres etc and the nearest parking for where I want to end up.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Oh dear I am quite worried now  I was going to rely on my phone satnav (google maps) to take us direct to the door from geneva to la tania but worried incase it takes us up a dirt track. How easy is this journey for those that have done it? are there loads of road changes? anyone suggest a good map i can buy or get from the library? I know someone mentioned a phone plan to use the satnav but i just used my older phone to take me somewhere on saturday and it didnt have any credit but it worked on the gps for free. will the same apply in france?
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Poster: A snowHead
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polo99, If in doubt over the satnav directions consult google maps itself. I find the actual map part of google maps to be quite good.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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polo99, why not run up the route before hand? Take a good look at it and if it starts to use anything other than major roads until you are right on top of your location you might be able to set up some go via's to keep it right.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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polo99, From Geneva follow green signs to France if you have a Swiss vignetteo Once in france keep following blue motor way signs to Annecy then Chambery, then Albertville. Now stay on Dual carriage way following signs to Moutiers, just before Moutiers follow signs to Courchevel and hence La Tania. A GPS is not really needed. I quite like the michelin map of the whole of France, which does give the mountain pass opening times should you feel the urge to go over the Petit st Bernard, but not the little road from Meribel to La Tania.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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As this is Satnavs... over the summer there were roadworks between Moutiers and Bourg St M. Bit of messing about with lanes and bollards (they seem to be doing something on the other side of the river too). Anyway, whoever it was in Centrale des Rues (or whatever) put in that the road was closed between M & BSM. Net result, My Garmin Nuvi satnav picks up the traffic info and tries all sorts of redirections (one being via Cormet de Roselend). I doubt the roadworks have been finished, so maybe the wrong info is still being sent to all traffic aware satnavs. I would recommend setting satnav to Moutiers, then following signs from there.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I found the Satnav built into the Freelander to be very good, automatically updating routes where there were problems and it never took me on a road it shouldn't have, unlike the sat navs in some friends cars, MS Autoroute I never had confidence in once I spotted that Bournemouth (Hurn) airport didn't exist, for those that don't know Hurn is an ex WW2 bomber airport which does a fair bit of international trade, it's also long enough to act as an emergency airport if the London ones are shut down capable of taking a 747 so not exactly small 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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I guess I'd agree that many people find it difficult to work effectively with machines.
As an extreme example, I'm reminded of the kiddies who discover that they can ride their park snowboards at 130km/h. They *know* they're going that fast because the computer tells them they are. They fail to successfully integrate the machine with all their other inputs, so they don't reject obviously incorrect readings.
I would have expected that kind of issue with old people, but it's interesting that children seem if anything more likely to suffer from believing that computers are "always right".
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I guess I'd agree that many people find it difficult to work effectively with machines.
As an extreme example, I'm reminded of the kiddies who discover that they can ride their park snowboards at 130km/h. They *know* they're going that fast because the computer tells them they are. They fail to successfully integrate the machine with all their other inputs, so they don't reject obviously incorrect readings.
I would have expected that kind of issue with old people, but it's interesting that children seem if anything more likely to suffer from believing that computers are "always right".
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some great tips there thanks verymuch. We are travelling from Lyon to La Tania and Geneva to Les Saisies but if Iam correct we will hit Geneva after we leave Lyon anyway wont we? Do we need to buy anything like tolls etc? I note you mention a Swiss vignette. will we need one?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| polo99 wrote: |
| some great tips there thanks verymuch. We are travelling from Lyon to La Tania and Geneva to Les Saisies but if Iam correct we will hit Geneva after we leave Lyon anyway wont we? Do we need to buy anything like tolls etc? I note you mention a Swiss vignette. will we need one? |
If you are driving for Lyon to La Tania, you won't go anywhere near Geneva, but you will be paying french Tolls
Geneva to Les Saisess Swiss Vignette and French Tolls, the swiss bit of motorway can be avoidied without much trouble, but avoiding the French toll bit would be very slow.
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Are you doing an airport pick up from Geneva ?
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FAQ
I love reading a real proper map when we drive anywhere, so much more interesting, with all those place names. And for finding alternative routes when the traffic's at a standstill. Maybe it's a navigational thing from marine charts - I love those too 
