fatbob, big difference between the first little picture and the later bigger picture isn't there though?
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Very good write up.
After all it is free
After all it is free
achilles wrote:
Interesting. Shows the value of an airbag - something that I never used when I was skiing off piste.
It also shows the value in correct assessment of the terrain, weather and snow such that you shouldn't get into the situation where the airbag comes in useful. She admits, herself, that it was stupid and she forgot or ignored many of the warning signs but as so many do, you get caught up in the moment and go just that little bit more.
Respect to her for coming out of it alive and being so honest about her stupidity.
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feef, +1
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
The airbag didn't entirely prevent burial due to the terrain trap. I had a very lucky escape in a similar situation, I know it's been up before but there were some big lessons here. The slide wasn't even deep, just the top layer, but it didn't half pile up where the slope had a dip. The rest of the gang had taken the left side of the ridge line so I was on my own, I should have noted that the slope faced the sun, was steep, few trees, low altitude and a terrible terrain trap. It was a seconds decision to blast down it towards the end of a long run.
ope looks so small and relatively innocuous until you realise the hangfire is the whole slope.
Reading the Utah Avalanche Center report it looks like they measured the slope at 40 degrees. It doesn't look it but they're the ones with the clinometre and I'm not. I suspect the vid flattens the top of the slope and that the skier hits the convexity at the about the sharpest transition between the shallower and the steeper part of the slope.
Interesting how a 40 deg terrain trap with trees (and trees mean facets) gets a reputation as being "safe".
That could easily have gone badly. Props to the rescuers for getting her out in the time they did.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
So what do you do next, Avalanche Poodle, knowing the rest of the slope is primed to go?
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
James the Last, I would ski down the avalanche path or climb back up to the ridge
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
I read about this yesterday from the POV of the two people that saw it from the opposite ridge who rescued her. There is actually a previous skier triggered avalanche just to the lookers right of the one the girl triggered.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
feef, sure, the best way of dealing with an avalanche is to avoid being caught up in one in the first place. Given that she was caught out, the airbag was impressive, though.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
James the Last, I made sure my avi bag handle was fully uncovered, and carefully side stepped up keeping to the sloughed off part until I was over the ridge transition. That was the only slide we saw all day, everywhere else was rock solid. I think that because of the direction of the slope the previous layer has partially melted and then refrozen, leaving a hard layer for later snow to slide on.
I would not ski down it, I've seen a slope go by having the bottom of it skied as that was supporting the snow above, and all the time I'd be in the little ravine I'd be in danger. My friends were also to the left of the ridge so I'd have had to keep close to the bottom to get to them.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Quote:
would ski down the avalanche path or climb back up to the ridge
Yeah. I think the poodle is only 5 m or so below the ridge there. I'd try and regain the ridge.
I got washed in la Grave a few years ago where one of the chutes next to the breche Pacave barfed on me without warning. It is always places you mistakenly assume are safe - in this case there were moguls forming - that kick you in the ass.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
achilles, only if you make the faulty correlation is causation link the lady makes in her blog. It's an easy bias to fall into when dealing with this sort of anecdote. There is no way to tell what effect, if any the airbag had in this particular incident which is why the efficacy of these sorts of safety device is statistically or experimentally demonstrated.
feef, sure, the best way of dealing with an avalanche is to avoid being caught up in one in the first place. Given that she was caught out, the airbag was impressive, though.
The point that much of the reporting has missed a couple of crucial points tho.
Certainly, the airbag helped her survival, but it was still a complete burial, the airbag just meant she was closer to the surface.
Without the help of the rescuers who happened to be in the immediate vicinity, it could have been a whole different story, airbag or not.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Yup, in terrain traps a bags value is limited as snow continues to pile up once you have stopped. On an open slope you tend to only stop when the snow stops moving.
gorilla, I got buried up to the waist on a flat forest track There was a grass embankment above it and as I skied along the path I went too close to it, undercut it and half the slope went. It was on the first off piste bash on the Italian say out, when we were just tracking it back to a village along a path.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Actually I would hope that this is NOT the sort of terrain trap that many of us would have skied!
Yes it's small, but there's clearly a steep convex section right above a fairly obvious terrain trap.
If she'd have stayed on the mellower skier's-left side she would have been fine, but she cut a big hard slash, moving right into the steep convex part and carried straight on into the worst of it.
Very lucky!
The two other guys filming knew it was a bad idea before she went.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Bottom line is that she was close to the surface. Best guess is that she was closer than she would otherwise have been. Seems a plus to me. I did not feel at a major disadvantage not using airbags. I didn't use them for to reasons. Firstly I thought they would be a hassle to lack and get through an airport. Secondly, I they were extra weight - so the secondary safety they provided would have been at the expense of the primary safety of less fatigue during the day. But, of course, I should have been fitter so that that would not have been an issue. However, were I starting off piste again as a young bloke I would use them.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Yep - but that was the money shot for the photographer. To be fair the skier's right might not have lulled me in but I could well have been suckered by the skier's left on the basis of a ski cut.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
clarky999, Yup, but often you are making decisions on the fly at speed, and the view from above can be very deceptive. You may make 100 correct choices all day, but your first mistake could kill you. I just now really concentrate on noticing traps especially, but also constantly trying to notice other aspects of the snow pack. I also had a time when I was on a very safe lower angled slope with just a couple of small rocks above a little lip. I used them to drop over and a little 15 metre patch of slab slid for about 5m. It was just the eddy effect of loading below the rocks which also acted as a trigger point. Not nice seeing cracks shooting away from you
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Avalanche Poodle, wow, the name change is very apt!
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
achilles wrote:
Bottom line is that she was close to the surface. Best guess is that she was closer than she would otherwise have been. Seems a plus to me.
Only if there's someone to see you to dig you out. The rescuer found her with his transceiver, had they not happened to have been there, and equally recognised the potential for a slide before she entered it then closer to the surface or not, it could have been quite a different outcome.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
meh, It was three times in three years, two were very small and on really innocuous terrain though. But yeah, after recalling Tami Knight's old cartoon of sending the avi poodle across any suspect slope first I thought I had to change it. Last year I did 8 weeks, about half of them off piste and managed to avoid even coming near a small slide
I have become very, very cautious. The only place I ski on my own is in forests I know very well when conditions are stable.
achilles, With a carbon cylinder my 18 lt ultralight bag is under 3kg. With a load of off piste kit, spare top, food etc, I really can't say I feel any difference between that and my usual rusksack which probably weighs over half a kilo. They are pretty comfy and have improved a lot lately.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
feef wrote:
achilles wrote:
Bottom line is that she was close to the surface. Best guess is that she was closer than she would otherwise have been. Seems a plus to me.
Only if there's someone to see you to dig you out. The rescuer found her with his transceiver, had they not happened to have been there, and equally recognised the potential for a slide before she entered it then closer to the surface or not, it could have been quite a different outcome.
That's quite a big 'only'. Members of off-piste parties tend keep an eye on one another. Some may brief to do this specifically. So if I was beeping watched by the others in the group, I'd much rather be just below the surface than 1-2 metres down.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
achilles wrote:
feef wrote:
achilles wrote:
Bottom line is that she was close to the surface. Best guess is that she was closer than she would otherwise have been. Seems a plus to me.
Only if there's someone to see you to dig you out. The rescuer found her with his transceiver, had they not happened to have been there, and equally recognised the potential for a slide before she entered it then closer to the surface or not, it could have been quite a different outcome.
That's quite a big 'only'. Members of off-piste parties tend keep an eye on one another. Some may brief to do this specifically. So if I was beeping watched by the others in the group, I'd much rather be just below the surface than 1-2 metres down.
The point I'm making is that they weren't in her group, the photographer and other skier had no kit with them.
It was two unrelated groups who were skinning up the hill and just happened to be passing at the time it happened. Even if they'd been a couple of hundred meters further down the hill, it could have been a different outcome. Had those unrelated parties not been there, or not got there quickly enough, then 0.5m or 1-2m makes little difference. A full burial is a full burial if there's noone there with the kit to find you or dig you out.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
A full burial is indeed a full burial. But a shallow full burial gives rescuers a better chance of digging the buried out in time for an effective rescue than from a deep one. I'm very pleased that I never got caught up in an avalanche. If you are saying that, airbag or no airbag. It's best to be in a group where you are keeping an eye on one another, I fully agree. Don't want to get too involved in this, my off piste days are over. Probably shouldn't have chipped in.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
meh wrote:
achilles, only if you make the faulty correlation is causation link the lady makes in her blog. It's an easy bias to fall into when dealing with this sort of anecdote. There is no way to tell what effect, if any the airbag had in this particular incident
Yes.
The airbag would have kept her nearer the surface, even in that smaller slide, that may have carried her into the terrain trap leading to her burial. She may not have even been buried without the airbag. In this particular case. No-one knows. Airbags in forests and areas above terrain traps can do more harm than good, in the case of wooded terrain you get taken further and faster through trees, which is not nice.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
davidof, That's another reason I lock down my airbag handle when I hit the trees.
I wonder how the other (as I understood local and more experienced) skier in her party felt for letting her go first. If she had gone first, without a transceiver and a highly likely full burial, she would have been dead now.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
There was a grass embankment above it and as I skied along the path I went too close to it, undercut it and half the slope went. It was on the first off piste bash on the Italian say out, when we were just tracking it back to a village along a path.
