 Poster: A snowHead
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Generally, stronger legs and lungs, but being middle aged I'll settle all aspects of leaping off the top of a mountain with naught but a pair of planks for safety!
Specifically, I'd have to go with learning to ski powder...do TDC do lessons Christmas week in Tignes?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| medlington wrote: |
| There just seems to be some invisible forcefield that stops me spinning at 180 degrees |
It's usually your arms that check rotation, try rotating the other direction and dry run it in your boots at home before heading to the hill.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| under a new name wrote: |
| * how often do you ski? e.g. many (esp. UK-based) "skiers" ski for one, maybe two, weeks a year and do nothing else about it. I don't think I would ever expect to be able to play tennis or golf (not that I can anyway) with any real competence with only 6 days a year of practice and tuition. |
Interesting observation. When I first started ramping up my annual ski days from my 5 days or so in the 90s (after having spent my earlier years skiing 30-90 days/season), I made an observation that at about day 12 on-snow, I moved from "conscious competence" to "unconscious competence". I was suddenly "on my skis" and able to experiment with new ideas without finding myself struggling with what I had learned before. This implies that most people never get to that point because they don't get enough time on-snow in any season! I have been actively playing with this, and find that by doing focused drills early in the season, I can reduce this by a few days, but I haven't yet got it much below 10 days.
What's your experience? How many days in a season does it take to get to the point where you're doing most of your skiing without thought, and only having to really think when you're doing drills or playing on improving your skiing?
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ssh, I'd go along with 12 days too. I've done anything from 6-20 in recent years, with an average of about 12 (and always with at least 12 hours of lessons and sometimes with a day of off-piste guiding).
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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ssh, Best skiing I ever had was from around day 10 onwards and improving every subsequent day. It was the first time I had skied 2 weeks in a row and it was an eye-opener which I highly recommend. Of course, it could be me just thinking I was skiing better; I was definitely better balanced, more relaxed and felt more "unconscious" of what I was doing.
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Flexibility.
As I grow older my flexibility seems to decrease due to injuries and the aging process 
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stewart woodward, do you stretch much?
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| Quote: |
What's your experience? How many days in a season does it take to get to the point where you're doing most of your skiing without thought, and only having to really think when you're doing drills or playing on improving your skiing?
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Interesting question. I skied 18 days last year which was the most for several years. Actually by about day 9 I felt I was getting to the unconscious competence stage when skiing in the trees - really flowing and not having to plan my turns. Funnily enough, I had a couple of high speed crashes around days 16 and 17 (not in the trees!) - think I was getting a bit careless to be honest.
I'm planning 16 or 17 days this year. I'd like to make sure that I stick at the unconscious competence but not complacent stage!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Mosha Marc wrote: |
| stewart woodward, do you stretch much? |
I have started Yoga classes to help with stretching & flexibility.
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Core.......breaking at the middle is root of all evil! Been working hard on my abs.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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ssh,
| Quote: |
| I made an observation that at about day 12 on-snow, I moved from "conscious competence" to "unconscious competence". |
Interesting. I came to a similar conclusion several years ago and consequently have only done 2 single week's skiing trips in the last 9 years - all other trips have been 2 or more weeks together.
My logic was based on the following rumour, supposition and personal experience:
It takes 6 days for your body to acclimatise to the altitude.
It takes another 2 days (8 total) for your legs to stop hurting.
It takes 2 days of skiing without aches and tiredness to get back to your 'real' skiing level (10 days total).
From day 11 onwards you can push on and improve.
So in a 2 week trip, say 13 days on snow, you spend 10 days getting back to your level and 3 days working or playing with your technique. Subsequent trips in the same season take less time to re-acclimatise but you need the first one to be 2 weeks or more or else you're just playing catch-up every time and never reach the unconscious competence level.
I think the lack of a full acclimatisation period is the major reason why 1 and 2 (separate) week a year skiers never really get any better.
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You know it makes sense.
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| harrim51 wrote: |
Everything...from top to bottom!
Skiing is such a black art, lesson after lesson an I still look around and wish I could ski like that! |
This!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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Raceplate, if that were true people who holiday skied where they don't need to acclimatize would in comparison ski better than those that ski where they do. I look forward to more than anecdote that shows that. 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Raceplate wrote: |
ssh,
| Quote: |
| I made an observation that at about day 12 on-snow, I moved from "conscious competence" to "unconscious competence". |
I think the lack of a full acclimatisation period is the major reason why 1 and 2 (separate) week a year skiers never really get any better. |
Interesting - do you think that can be mitigated by some snow dome training and a very ski specific physical training programme in the say, 9-12 weeks prior to the season (i.e. balance work, jumping, plyometrics, etc - in other words not just Core, CV, Leg strength). And that makes for a quicker "pick up" to get back to previous levels?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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ssh
| Quote: |
How many days in a season does it take to get to the point where you're doing most of your skiing without thought, and only having to really think when you're doing drills or playing on improving your skiing?
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Now there's a hard question!! I don't think I ski without thought very often, if only to be thinking, "yeah, that feels right". That's part of why I love it so much, it totally absorbs all my conscious attention. (There's probably a high vanity component in there I must confess... at least when conditions are facile).
That said, I will ski most things without thinking about the skiing in advance, so that's a component too. But I think I am at least at some level always playing on improving my skiing.
I don't think that makes me a bad person.
Oddly enough, my wife skis some things(!) way better/prettier than I do and I don't think she's thought about improving her skiing since she was about 10. It's always unconsciously competent with her. 
| Quote: |
How many days in a season does it take to get to the point where ...
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Well my wife ski'ed yesterday exactly as she did on the last day of last season.
I was pleased that I had retained (I think) some of the technique changes that Philbo and Euan had broken into me at this time last year. So honestly, I don't think it takes any time at all for me to get back into where I think I was. But I don't think I am answering your question, quite.
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Raceplate, what altitude are you skiing at? I'm a tad sceptical that 2,200m is going to make a huge difference to most people...? (although...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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moffatross, i'd concur
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| meh wrote: |
| Raceplate, if that were true people who holiday skied where they don't need to acclimatize would in comparison ski better than those that ski where they do. I look forward to more than anecdote that shows that. |
Theoretically, yes. Why don't you agree with it? Anyone who lives in the Alps all year round will have much more efficient lung oxygenation so will not tire as easily as someone who's just come up from sea level. There's something like 30% less oxygen molecules in each breath at 3,000m than sea level. Surely you're not going to dispute that fatigue is a major factor in poor quality skiing and a contributor to many accidents and injuries?
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| Raceplate wrote: |
ssh,
| Quote: |
| I made an observation that at about day 12 on-snow, I moved from "conscious competence" to "unconscious competence". |
Interesting. I came to a similar conclusion several years ago and consequently have only done 2 single week's skiing trips in the last 9 years - all other trips have been 2 or more weeks together.
My logic was based on the following rumour, supposition and personal experience:
It takes 6 days for your body to acclimatise to the altitude.
It takes another 2 days (8 total) for your legs to stop hurting.
It takes 2 days of skiing without aches and tiredness to get back to your 'real' skiing level (10 days total).
From day 11 onwards you can push on and improve.
So in a 2 week trip, say 13 days on snow, you spend 10 days getting back to your level and 3 days working or playing with your technique. Subsequent trips in the same season take less time to re-acclimatise but you need the first one to be 2 weeks or more or else you're just playing catch-up every time and never reach the unconscious competence level.
I think the lack of a full acclimatisation period is the major reason why 1 and 2 (separate) week a year skiers never really get any better. |
Hmmm... Well, I live at ~5,500' and ski from 9,600', so I don't think acclimatization is a big issue for me. So, I don't include that. For me, it's more about the skiing. Now, unlike many on snowHeads, I seldom get many days together (usually just two!), but ski over the course of the season 20-30 days. I think it likely that skiing multiple days in a row reduces this length of time.
I do not see most of my issues being these kinds of physical "in shape" issues. I am in exceptional shape this season, live at altitude, and have been skiing twice without significant muscle pain. For me, it's largely how my mind and body work together. I actually have to think about where my feet are in the turn earlier in the season. Watching video of my second run of the season made it obvious to me that I am disconnected, my body is not doing what my mind thinks it is, and I have work to do to connect the two for accuracy and clarity.
I often play with different aspects of turns for a number of turns (or runs), like transition, early pressure, high angles, etc., but do not do all of them at once. By the time I have 8-12 days on snow, though, most of those things "just happen" without me thinking about them, and I find myself more able to play with tactics, sensations, and other aspects of skiing than technique.
under a new name, that is interesting information about your wife! Does she feel fully "on" right away? Is she pushing her skills at all or mostly "coasting"?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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mishmash,
| Quote: |
Interesting - do you think that can be mitigated by some snow dome training and a very ski specific physical training programme in the say, 9-12 weeks prior to the season (i.e. balance work, jumping, plyometrics, etc - in other words not just Core, CV, Leg strength). And that makes for a quicker "pick up" to get back to previous levels?
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To a degree, it can mitigate it for sure. A strong level of CV fitness will help considerably but there's still no substitute for altitude training. Training ski-specific muscles is definitely beneficial too. I personally only think snowdome training works up to a certain skiing level because of the fixed gradient but it's good for general balance etc. I'd get more of my ski legs back in 2 hours on a mountain than I would in a week in a snowdome.
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| Raceplate wrote: |
| meh wrote: |
| Raceplate, if that were true people who holiday skied where they don't need to acclimatize would in comparison ski better than those that ski where they do. I look forward to more than anecdote that shows that. |
Theoretically, yes. Why don't you agree with it? Anyone who lives in the Alps all year round will have much more efficient lung oxygenation so will not tire as easily as someone who's just come up from sea level. There's something like 30% less oxygen molecules in each breath at 3,000m than sea level. Surely you're not going to dispute that fatigue is a major factor in poor quality skiing and a contributor to many accidents and injuries? |
Given what I've seen with many punters, I completely agree that there are issues at altitude, although the difference between 2,000m and 3,000m is significant. Here in Colorado, having the base at 9,600' (at Copper) with the summit above 12,000', we often see issues with altitude (often more hydration, but caused by altitude). One of the funniest aspects of this is watching a regular drinker attempt to consume their normal alcohol volume here at altitude. It hits them dramatically faster and to a greater degree, and I have seen "fall-down drunks" after 2-3 beers who obviously are used to consuming multiple 6-packs!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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ssh, hee hee, she doesn't hang out here so I can be a little honest...
She doesn't feel the urge to push her skills. She skis very well, and only really got into bumps cos I love 'em and she kept finding herself in a bumps field.
Her ski nature is race bred but she's pretty polyvalent.
Sure, she's mostly coasting, but I would submit at a reasonably competent level. There's some vid floating around here that I'll try and point you at if you like.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I live at about +1.5m. I've never been that aware of the altitude going up to VT to ski even up to the cable car station at 3200m. The only time I think I've ever noticed it was on a summer holiday when we rode a cable to the top of the Corvatsch to the glacier 3433m I distinctly recall being out of breath walking back up the 20 or so steps to the restaurant from the glacier. Then we had gone straight up from St Moritz at 1820 (where we had been for a couple of days previously) and we walked back down.
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| under a new name wrote: |
| Raceplate, what altitude are you skiing at? I'm a tad sceptical that 2,200m is going to make a huge difference to most people...? (although... |
Depends what their residual fitness level is. I can still remember how utterly knackered I was doing my BASI L1 pre-season on the Tignes glacier in the days when I used to just turn up and ski without doing any real fitness work beforehand (like many punters do). In fact it was that very negative experience which made me go out and buy a load of gym equipment and start using it so I never had the problem to the same degree again.
I have to say though, I've done a full season, 2 half seasons, a 3 and a 5 week punter ski in the last 9 years and there is still a massive (positive) difference in fitness/fatigue levels when doing that compared to how the first week of the season feels whilst I acclimatise IME.
I ski mainly in the 3V's so regularly around 3,000m in VT.
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You know it makes sense.
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David Murdoch, seeing vid would be great, but it's more about understanding how she feels about her skiing and if there are avenues to a faster ramp for me! If I can find a way to "get back to" my spring competence without going through my annual ramp, I'd be delighted! After two days, I know that I'm not getting my feet out to the side as far as I'd like, I'm not getting the extreme angles I prefer, and I am still thinking about my technique far more than I will be after I've been on snow a few more days...
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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moffatross,
| Quote: |
| And as skiing isn't really much physical effort anyway, the aerobic hit from unacclimatised altitude is going to make next to no difference, surely |
Again, this really rather depends on your ability level. If you're crap, fighting every turn and falling over a lot it's a hell of a lot of effort. If you can't breath properly either it just exacerbates it.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| moffatross wrote: |
In conclusion, your honour, I posit that 'little and often' is just as good as protracted blocks.  |
Most of my skiing is at the weekends, it always has been, I have done a few 2 week holidays, loads of 6-9 days skiing as well but I find after a few runs I usually feel quite comfortable back on skis, I suspect that might be because I am skiing at no where near the level of ssh.
I do think it must be really tough to only get away for a week a year though, I love my weeks holidays and love visiting new places but if it was a choice between weekend skiing or a weeks holiday then skiing at the weekends would always win out.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Megamum,
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| I've never been that aware of the altitude going up to VT to ski even up to the cable car station at 3200m. |
How many times have you skied a continuous 2-3 week period in VT so you actually have a point of reference for the difference in feeling?
Just because you don't get obvious altitude sickness doesn't mean you're not suffering from a lack of acclimatisation time.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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ssh, i just blew my cover didn't I? 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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ssh, are you quite sure you aren't skiing as well as you were at the end of last season?
I used to find, when I spent more of my summer thinking about it, that my skiing morphed somewhat over the summer.
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ssh,
| Quote: |
I reckon it depends on how you ski, what you ski, etc. While cruising a green isn't likely to get me breathing hard, climbing to a 12,000' peak and skiing down in 18" of new snow probably will...
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Agreed.
I often use Suisses (longish Black in Courchevel) as a fitness yardstick. After a couple of weeks on snow I can ski that non-stop in short turns with no problem. In the first week I'll need to break it into 3 sections. I don't believe my overall fitness level has changed dramatically in that period but what has changed is my body's ability to assimilate what oxygen is available and process lactic acid more quickly.
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Re. the altitude effects, certainly there's a few days at the start of a holiday when people struggle, but I don't think it makes a huge difference in technique improvement. If there was a big difference, I'd see much more improvement in my classes in Niseko (250m) than in Portillo (3000m), but I think it's more or less the same.
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ssh,
| Quote: |
| Given what I've seen with many punters, I completely agree that there are issues at altitude, although the difference between 2,000m and 3,000m is significant. Here in Colorado, having the base at 9,600' (at Copper) with the summit above 12,000', we often see issues with altitude (often more hydration, but caused by altitude). |
I first learnt to ski at Breckenridge. We were warned about altitude sickness - headaches, nausea, vertigo etc. - but I didn't notice anything. I had no point of reference though having never been to that altitude before and only skiing greens and blues it wasn't that taxing. If I was going back there now to play in the bowls though I would work extremely hard on my fitness first otherwise I know it would kill me!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Raceplate, ah, most skiers aren't hanging around 3,000m though I don't think?
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under a new name, I'd say not. Vast majority of resorts in Europe "top out" around 3000.
Japan I don't think gets to 3000 anywhere.
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FAQ
. However, I have kept up with the horse riding (which I've been doing once every two weeks for the last year which is still not a lot, but I wasn't doing anything previously. I have also got some snow dome hours in this summer which I think won't have done any harm and I have lost some weight 
, I also race my son to his bus every morning - all of a 30 yard dash 
) I just lack any motivation to exercise - I ought to get back on my bike.
