Can anyone explain Boot flex ?

A snowHead

I'm relatively new to this and would like more of an understanding of the role of that boot flex plays.

Is it similar to the suspension in a car, firmer in a sports car allows you to go faster around the bends but you feel the bumps and are less comfortable around town at slower speeds ?

If I were to wear stiff racing boots whilst trying to perfect my carving technique on a gentle blue run what problems would I exeprience ?

Conversely, if I were to go fast down a slope in boots that were too soft, what would I feel ?

Regards,
Mike

A snowHead

I'm sure others will be able to provide a better answer, but here's the basics:
You want to be able to flex your boots, but not too much. Especially when initiating turns, you want to be flexing your boots to put pressure on your tips. A heavier or more powerful/experienced skier will need a stiffer boot to support them, while a lighter or less powerful skier will need a softer boot so that they can still properly flex it. Skiing should consist of fluid motions, and if you're not flexing your boots things get jerky and go wrong.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

ponder, not strictly true, a stiffer boot makes it easier to transfer pressure to your skis, the transfer of pressure is what helps the skis to turn, so a stiffer boot should give you faster turns than a softer boot, however if you are not worried about ultimate performance a softer boot may give you more comfort, the trick for recreational skiers is to find a boot that is comfortable to ski in but stiff enough that it gives you enough support, downhill racers tend to have very stiff boots, however they don't leave them done up all day unlike a recreational skier.

Actually that would be a good question to ask Martin Bell, how does the ski boot he skis in for recreation differ from that which he raced in World Cup events

Of course the real expert on Boots is Smallzookeeper

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The mythical SmallZooKepper!

I went hunting for this rare beast and was greeted by complete blankness by the various boot shops I enquired in Chamonix Sud.

"Je cherche un mec qui garde un petit menagerie," received the sale incomprehension as "who is the SmallZooKeeper?".

I am beginning to doubt his existence...

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

D G Orf, I have tried on a lot of boots in different shops.

I find XWave8s very comfortable, no space just snug all over with no pressure points but I don't flex them much, the shop is trying to put me into GTS10s which I flex more. As a new boy I'm not sure why I need to flex them but I do know why they need to be comfortable all day.

So going on what you say, if I buy the very comfortable boots it shouldn't really matter that I don't flex them much, it just means that when skiing every movement will translate into the skis and I will have to concentrate hard on what I'm doing ?

Am I correct ?

Mike

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mike.healy, the less experience you have the more flex you want in a boot, the less flex you have the more twitchy a ski feels underfoot, so an experienced skier will generally want the highest response between foot and ski, whilst a novice will generally want something with a bit more tolerance and give, think of it in car terms, the stiffer the ski boot the more like a sportscar, the more flexible the skiboot the closer you get to a soft suspension 4x4 most people want something in the middle where the boot performs like a good saloon car, comfortable and can handle most conditions.

There are exceptions though, I have a relatively flexible boot matched up to a very stiff high performance ski, because I have sufficient leg strength to be able to transfer the power to the ski with muscle power alone, however I'm an exception not many people can legpress 260KG (on one leg) repeatedly, I got my boots because they fit perfectly and are really comfortable, I'm prepared as a result to work a little harder on my skiing

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

mike.healy,

After all it is free

Many thanks to all contributors so far.

'm getting a better picture on flex now but my research on the internet reveals that the GTS10 has a flex index of 90/80 and the Xwave is a 85, so on those figures they are equally stiff.

One step forward, and one back.

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mike.healy, I may be wrong but I don't think you can compare flex numbers across different makes. A Salomon boot with a flex of 80 isn't necessarily the same as, say, a Nordica flex of 80 and certainly isn't 10 times stiffer than a Head boot with a flex of 8.0.

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jtr, That's correct, the flex patterns cannot be compared across the brands. I think Biggie SZK was telling us about a move to try and get an industry standard flex measurement.

mike.healy, Don't get too hung up on your boot flex. Concentrate on the fit. You should be looking for an entry(ish) level boot that will allow you to progress.

There are two (or more) schools of thought on boot flex pattern. Traditionally stiff boots were preferred by better skiers and their aficionados – for the reasons above^. Modern carving techniques, and more importantly some of their coaching gurus, advocate a softer boot. (Massive generalisations accepted wink

)

At the end of the day it’s personal choice. Your boot fitter should have gone through with this really, either he’s not up to the job or you were being male (as my wife says).

The fit is so important I’ll mention it twice… You need to love your bootfitter. With all relationships you both need to share the most interment details with each other for ultimate fulfilment. Don’t be shy. A good bootfitter should take care of all your concerns. I’m afraid I no longer know any in the UK but lots of other snowHead

will be able to help…

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Dave Burt,

You know it makes sense.

Well I'm at the other end of the scale to you, ,D G Orf, I'm 6' 1" and about 11st 12lbs (76 Kg), so tall and skinny. My calves are a mere 13" but in my defence I offer the following words of wisdom "it's the gunner that matters, not the gun" - and at this point I must emphasise that I'm only defending my skinny frame.

Now back to my boot flex problem. Salomon X-waves 8 are a perfect snug fit all over but the guy in the shop reckons I'm not flexing them enough, he says I should go for the Nordica GTS10 which aren't as good a fit but I'm flexing better. I can't really feel any difference between them in terms of flex. It has to be one of these two 'cos the shop are giving me 70% credit on a pair of Technica Rival X8s that I just can't get comfortable in.

In terms of ability I've done about 3 weeks and I'm a (Snow and Rock) level 5 but improving all the time.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

mike.healy, A no brainer, you must go for the correctly fitting X-Wave's. In fact if you've given your fitter all the info you've given us I'd go as far as suggesting that your fitter is giving you duff info.

The 8 is not a particularly stiff boot (it's an excellent boot BTW but unfortunately too low volume for me) & should be easily flexed by a 76kg'er. Therefore it's your ability to flex them that's the problem not that the boot's too stiff - but that's understandable with your limited experience. The common problem for newish skiers is usually their inability to isolate ankle flex from knee flex (as it's unlikey that they've been shown during lessons at this level) but it's easy to learn once shown the correct exercise. Your fitter should know this.

Also although boots are softer in a warm shop they are also harder to flex (especially for beginners) as you are not locked in the ski binding & can't lever against the skis. Ask to be clamped in some demo skis to try the flex - you'll find it a lot easier.

As you're learning fast if you buy the 'not so good fit' Nordica's you will regret it as not only it is likely that they'll be too soft for you, their lack of fit could well hamper your improvement. If required it's easy to soften a boot slightly but v.difficult to stiffen it. Buy the Nordica's & you'll end up replacing them after a few more weeks use. I know from experience as I bought my third pair of boots after just five weeks.

Buy the 8's, get custom insoles, wear them loads at home (12/15 hours Profeet told me) have a lesson & ask the instructor to show you how to isolate ankle flex & give you a couple of exercises to do. Even better, go to Profeet & get the benefit of their skill & their pressure/alignment testing as well - their extra fitting cost is well worth it.

A snowHead

[quote="David Murdoch"]The mythical SmallZooKepper!

I went hunting for this rare beast and was greeted by complete blankness by the various boot shops I enquired in Chamonix Sud.

"Je cherche un mec qui garde un petit menagerie," received the sale incomprehension as "who is the SmallZooKeeper?".

I am beginning to doubt his existence...[/quote]

Sorry, mate. I was feeding the frogs at the time. Made the cage cleaner laugh all day though. Can't say that i really thought you guys would turn up. My interest here was just to prevoke a different train of thought from the norm(S&Rmarketing etc). Winter is now upon me and my need to talk ski boots and feet is being enduldged by our clients. Should anyone be passing by the shop, i would suggest maybe asking for some help. Can't imagine how the other guys will react if another snowhead pops by asking for a 'SMALLZOOKEEPER'. It cost be a fortune in the bar later trying to explain to our staff. Cheers Murdoch. You're also very small in real life, a la prochaine. Steve.

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Physicsman, yes think I agree, my new boots fit so well that I didn't have any problems with control and no heel lift so that answers b. Yes you can go too soft, I'd say stiffish walking boot is the ideal stiffness, as for c. I've been skiing for 30+years and it comes as easily to me as walking so I guess in addition to the strength I've also had the practice wink

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SMALLZOOKEEPER, ha, I'm just glad I hadn't carted my boots all the way over the channel then. Although If I had done that I'd have made a more formal RV.

So the look on your face (unless there are 2 Steve's) was indeed one of "rumbled" rather than bemusement? wink

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

I have read what has been written above about ankle and knee flex with great interest and was feeling moderately smug because I thought that my boots were quite comfortable and fiited quite well - until:

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Nick L, No your heels can go up an down a bit rolling eyes

....as long as they don't go from side to side..... Shocked

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

Nick L, also if you are standing in your boots in your living room (or in a shop) and you are trying to lift your heel vertically then there is going to be some movement straight up. This is not a good indication of how much heel lift you'd get clamped to a ski and actually trying to lift your heel while exerting pressure on the tongue of the boot i.e. trying to make the ski tips dive. If you have the second type of lift then there are some things a good bootfitter can do but I can't help you in the UK, sorry.

After all it is free

Thanks parlor, I think that I have the second type of lift. I don't think that I had it when I first bought the boots (Rossignols) in 2000 and feel that it has developed in the 5-6wks that I have skied since. Not sure if this is the liner compressing or me getting smaller (I am a lot fitter than I was then).
BTW, I wonder how many of us saddos have got the tape-measure out following D G Orf, 's post just to see "who has got the biggest" - mine measure 40.5cm (16") Blush

A propos stiffness in skiboots, a lot of good skiers ski with the top clip or clips loose or even undone completely if they feel the conditions require more flex. Therefore it would seem to me that it is better to have a slightly too stiff boot than too soft. The one thing I would stress is comfort is more important than anything else, especially for the inexperienced and children as we don't want to put people off by having a holiday ruined by the misery of sore feet.

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

Nick L, a quick fix to a small amount of heel lift is often to just throw some small foam "heel wedges" into the heels of the boot. Cost next to nothing and should get rid of heel lifting problems.

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Thanks ponder,

I can explain the BootFlex rating of many brands, however ther are few that make sense. The brands employing the most understandable and having therefore consistant results are; Dolomite, Tecnica, Nordica.

The test states: The boot is to be closed at its middle adjustment through the four buckles(micro adjusted mid-way too), the boot is then placed in a temperature controled environment at 23 degrees. An artifical leg is then placed into the boot and expanded to contact pressure. We them flex the boot through 10 degrees(angle) 30,000 times. The average force required to flex the boot is then measured in newtons. This figure is your flex rating. i.e. A Nordica Doberman 130, requires 130 newtons of force to flex the boot 10 degrees(angle) at 23 degrees(temperature)

I hope this is easy to understand, however, change the micro adjustment 1 turn, change the temperature 1 degree, mal-adjust your bindings or wear a boot with a worn sole, wear a thicker sock and this flex rating is affected greatly.

So, when looking for the right flex for you, i'd advise looking for a constant resistance against your shin and some progressive movement, when you load the boot. Your weight and strength are the most important factors. Get you bootfitter to show you how to flex the boot. Have 70% weight on the foot with the boot on, flex to pressure the front of the boot, then imagine all your strength comes from your hip and in one hit bend that knee and push, hard. How does it feel, descuss this feeling with your bootfitter. Do you still trust him/her? What did they say, how did they explain the problems or attributes of this kind of flex. If you don't trust them now, run away, however, take the boot off first or the'll catch you. Twisted Evil

You know it makes sense.

mike.healy, At the end of the day, comfort is more important than anything else. However, Salomons tend to fit evryone more or less, but not too many people perfectly (they are apparently rectangular in basic shape). My Atomics are apparently wider at the front of the foot than the heel, giving good hell hold (not vertical), whereas my Flexons are narrow everywhere. Shocked

I recommend that you buy your boots in resaort. Ask around (people that live there, not seasonals) for the best boot shop and go there. They will get the right boot for you, they'll have more stock, and you can get them customised as you go. I really don't recommend buying them in the UK unless you really know what you're doing. Also, the shop you're going to only has 2 boots that fit you - you need more choice. Little Angel

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

easiski, Hi, I would love to buy them in resort because everything in Bulgaria seems cheaper. I'll be there in Feb and I think I would get better advice BUT I am getting 70% credit (not a refund) on the Tecnica Rival X8s that a shop sold me this April as they cannot make them comfortable even after 2 weeks use so I have to buy there again.

I think the shop is reasonably capable and they have different staff now but having used an ill-fitting boot for 2 weeks I'm keen this time to get it right. There's no doubt the Salomon X-Wave8s are the best fit of the dozen types that I have tried on, surprisingly other Salomons aren't that good.

Can ayone tell me if Salomon X-Wave8s are stiffer than Tecnica Rival X8s ? Puzzled

Rgds,
Mike

A snowHead

mike.healy, I forget how many shells Salomon make now, SZK will have more details, but it's not very many. I know the Course shell will be a different fit to the boots in the X-Wave series, not sure about the others. This would explain some difference with fit on the Sollys.

Go for the X-Waves. Once you break them in you can get them made less stiff if you're still worried about it.

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

SMALLZOOKEEPER, Do boots soften up with use? I've a pair of X-Wave 9's and while they fit perfectly, they felt really stiff first time out. Now 3 hols (and a few days trips) on they seem to flex just nicely. Just wondered if they have softened or if I've got used to them?

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SMALLZOOKEEPER, We experianced the brittleness a couple of years ago when one of the mother in laws boots, which were about 15yrs old ("don't want new ones, these are comfy") shattered completely half way down a run. She couldn't carry on, so we had to get the ski patrol to take her down on the back of a skidoo.

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DAVID F, you see far too much of that. STOP SKIING IN REAR ENTRY BOOTS. Sorry for shouting, I doubt there are many snowHead

that still are. It's the silly old people that begrudge buying (or renting) new kit but it could make the difference between ruining a run, a leg or your life...

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

A mate of mine had his Raichle Flexons (yes, they were pretty old) break in two on day one of a heli trip. Luckily there was a heli heading to Whistler the next day and a very kind shop sent back a few pairs otherwise it would have been an expensive diversion.

After all it is free

SMALLZOOKEEPER, On the Xwave8 there is a height adjuster on the cuff you can't cut a Vee into it. How else can the flex be adjusted on this boot ?

Take of the spoiler then have the 'v' cut on the clog(lower shell). Cutting a 'v' in the spoiler will do nothing. Twisted Evil

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SMALLZOOKEEPER, ...and then put the spoiler back on or will that not be possible ?

Help!!

Can anyone explain Boot flex ?

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