 Poster: A snowHead
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I have stalked the forum for some time so I realise this topic has been done to death. However, there is a lot of contrasting advise so I was hoping we could create one definitive thread to bring it all together. Basically my question is:
For the beginner skier (with ambition) what is the best combination:-
1) Hardshell goretex shell
My thoughts
Pro's - most waterproof/windproof option.
Neg's - probably overkill. Only useful versus softshell in extreme rain. More expensive, less comfortable/flexible.
2) Traditional insulated ski jacket
My thoughts:
Pro's - cheapest & simplest option, useful ski specific fetures (lift pass pocket, large hood, snow skirt).
Neg's - bulky? Forced to wear insulating layer when it might be desirable not to.
3) Softshell
My thoughts
Pro's - cheaper than a hardshell and some have comparable waterproof/windproof qualities, but are also lighter and more flexible/comfortable. Ability to add/remove layers depending on the conditions.
Con's - lack of ski specific features? May work out more expensive that option 2.
Bonus questions:-
*Given your advise on the above, what would you recommend for ski pants/salopettes?
*Is the outerlayer of a traditional insulated ski jacket more similar to a softshell or hardshell?
*Would your advise vary depending on budget - say £100, £300, £500 (just for jacket and layers)
*Those in favour of hardshell/softshell - can you recommend any designed with skiing in mind?
Thank you everyone in anticipation!!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Some important questions-
-Where are you going?
-When are you going?
-How tight is the budget?
-Is image important to you?
-You say you are a beginner. Are you a complete beginner, ie this is your first ski holiday?
Answers will vary depending on the above. There's a place for all options (othwer wise the stuff wouldn't get sold), but the gear necessary for a mnursery slope in January, which spends the whole day in the shade, may be very different to the gear needed on the same slope in March when it gets blasted by the sun for8 hours a a day.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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-Where - Borovets!!
-When - February 2014
-How tight is my budget - flexible. I would be willing to spend decent money (say up to £500 for jacket, pants & thermals) if it is justifiable. Could be convinced to spend more, but equally I have no problem spending less if I can get away with it.
-Image - not particularly important.
-Beginner status - went to Glenshee last January having never skied before. Wore adidas trousers and my father in laws old ski jacket that was three sizes too big. After falling over on the nursery slope all morning I spent the next day and a half crashing into people on the blues. Have been getting indoor lessons and plan to have private lessons in Bulgaria. I would describe myself as advanced beginner. Others would perhaps not be so generous! My better half's family are very keen skiers so I have my eyes set on the blacks...
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jonnycumlately,
My tuppence:
Layering "systems" give you a great deal more performance and flexibility. Ski specific stuff tend to look like ski specific stuff and won't get nearly as much use when you're not skiing. i.e. you won't be likely to wear it down the pub at home. Without potentially looking a little silly. And I think it tends to be less well made.
My hard shells, soft shells, fleeces, bases, etc. all get used for all sorts of things not exclusively mountain related, and so get used pretty much until they're useless. My perception is that many ski jackets (but not all  ) get changed on the basis of fashion. So layering is massively more cost effective and can reduce packing.
And layering, if done properly is more efficient and effective at helping you stay at a comfortable temperature.
Lighter weight hard shells are not, IMO, any if at all less comfortable than soft shells - to the extent it's hard to tell the difference without reading the accompanying marketing puff. And many shells of both varieties have ski related features like arm pockets for passes, etc. (None of my jackets have ever had arm pockets and it's no biggie.) Snow skirts are not necessary, as long as your jacket fits properly/has adjustable waist.
I would suggest that as a beginner, if you are having lessons you are likely to spend a bit of time hanging around. So you want something that will cope with a wide variation in pace.
If you are misguidedly just following better skiers, be prepared to spend all of your time attempting to keep up, while they ski off as soon as you catch up and you eventually expire in a pool of your own sweat.
So a decent shell jacket and trousers, of your choice. Polartec 200 weight fleece jacket and leggings (if your legs get cold, mine do), handful of mid layers if you think you need them (I do) and some base layers of choice should sort you out and also equip you for the pub after skiing.
Decathlon/Quechua are a good bet for decently engineered kit at keen prices.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Do you run hot or cold? Do you sweat much? Does your kit need to be useful outside of ski holidays?
I don't rate traditional insulated ski jackets... not that great in the rain, not that great in the warm. If you're a very cold sort of person, you might like em. If you're going to be spending a lot of time skiing in places where you might expect rain or wet snow, you might do better with hardshell rather than softshell. Remember that own-brand 3-layer waterproof fabrics are pretty good these days, not as good as goretex or event, but a good deal cheaper. Don't bother with 'zip-in' fleeces and shells, they're a gimmick. You probably don't need ski-specific features like snow skirts, and you pay a hefty premium for ski-specific kit with those sorts of features. Softshells often have insulating fleecy layers bonded to them... that's extra weight and warmth you might not want or need... look out for non-insulating ones, cos you can always stick thermals on underneath.
Consider Paramo gear. It tends to be decently weatherproof (moreso than stretch-weave softshells, perhaps less so than serious and expensive powershield type things). It dries quickly if you're active, doesn't feel as nasty as a hardshell if soaked, breathes very well if you're hot and sweaty. You can pick it up second hand quite often, it lasts for ages, it is easy to repair, easy enough to maintain. The older jackets tend to be as well tailored as a sack of spuds, mind you.
Rab's Exodus softshell jacket and trews are intended for skiing, so you get a little pass pocket on your shoulder and the cuffs of the trousers fit over ski boots. They're nice bits of gear, and I've used them in the past. Non-insulated, by way of a bonus. If you get softshell, consider budgeting for some cheap waterproofs to through over the top. Marmot's precip full-zip pant is a good choice, though the fabric isn't ski-proof so it'll look a bit tatty after a while
If you're on a tight budget, just pop into mountain warehouse or decathlon and grab whatever takes your fancy. It'll be fine, and come in comfortably under budget. You've missed some good deals on sportpursuit, but they may come round again!
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Ok, here's my take:
You've summed up the pros and con's pretty well.
Sounds like you are going to be pretty active while out on the slopes, and you are not going in the depths of January or to anywhere super high, so pure insulation is less of a concern.
Legs. This is the easy bit in my opinion. Go for goretex (or similar) shell. Useful to keep you dry whether sitting in the snow after a fall, or to stop you getting a soggy bum on a wet chairlift. You are unlikely to notice the lack of insulation over your legs. Thermal leggings underneath as required depending on the temperature. The North Face make some nice ones that are not ridiculously overpriced.
Jacket. Waterproofness is less important. A goretx type shell will keep you dry when skiing in the rain, but frankly, skiing in the rain is horrible and best avoided anyway. Good option if you intend to ski in Scotland again though. Like you say, you get flexibility with regard to insulation. Have a look at mountaineering/technical climbing type goretex jackets as well, these can be a fair bit cheaper than pure skiing shell jackets, e.g. Mountain Equipment stuff.
I really wouldn't bother with softshell stuff (as a sole outer layer) I see a softshell jacket as a nice thing to have for sunny days when you don't need your 'main' jacket. Or for those hsardy ski touring types who have a lightweight shell in their backpack to go on over their softwhell.
If money is a bit tight I'd be looking for a lined, or very lightly insulated ski type jacket which appeals (in fit, colour, style, hood/pocket design etc) without worrying too much about how 'waterproof' it was. If money is not so much of a problem, I'd apply similar criteria to choosing a goretex jacket.
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jonnycumlately, I pretty much agree with under a new name
Almost all of us will have followed the following skiwear path:
FIRST TRIP: Traditional insulated ski wear, probably bought at significant discount in either TK Maxx or Decathlon or even borrowed from a mate.
SECOND TRIP: The same traditional insulated ski wear that we dig out of the attic from last year. It probably smells a bit foosty because it didn't get worn since last year but is still fine.
SOMEWHERE BETWEEN THIRD TRIP and PRESENT DAY: Decided what features we really want from our skiwear based on (a) comfort (b) breathability (c) waterproofness (d) budget (e) versatility - can it be worn down the pub etc and spent a reasonable amount of money on that.
There's nothing wrong with following this path because there isn't anything inherently wrong with traditional ski wear. It can be bought very cheaply (£40 will get you a jacket in TK Maxx usually). If you elect to spend a lot of money on hardshell or softshell at this stage you might find yourself regretting it in a year or two because you decide you prefer the other.
I ended up with the goretex. I have several softshell style jackets I could wear skiing but I don't think I ever will. The goretex performs very well for what I do. If i ever did wear the softshell I'd probably want the goretex in a backpack in reserve, which ultimately defeats the point of the softshell I think because it becomes a glorified mid layer. My feeling (and this is unscientific and subject to correction) is that if you did a SH poll you'd find most are hardshellers.
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| Spud9 wrote: |
Jacket. Waterproofness is less important. A goretx type shell will keep you dry when skiing in the rain, but frankly, skiing in the rain is horrible and best avoided anyway. Good option if you intend to ski in Scotland again though. Like you say, you get flexibility with regard to insulation. Have a look at mountaineering/technical climbing type goretex jackets as well, these can be a fair bit cheaper than pure skiing shell jackets, e.g. Mountain Equipment stuff.
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All pretty bang on except for this (IMHO). You generate heat when skiing, especially as a beginner, when you're really working at it. If it's snowing, the snow melts when it hits your jacket (unless it is very cold). Decent Gore Tex (or similar) membrane (not coating) will stop your jacket getting soaked from outside, and from inside by breathing properly (provided your other layers are breathable). The sort of insulation you get in cheaper ski jackets tends not to breathe very well, and the waterproofing doesn't deal well with sitting snow melting as you radiate heat.
I always had mid-priced insulated jackets, and it was always a problem on a) warm days, when I overheated and b) snowy days, when you got soaked. Last season I went to a hardshell (expensive Gore-Tex affair). And I have to say it solved both problems beautifully. "removable" insulation in the form of a midlayer made the whole getup more versatile.
To solve problem a) insulated jackets are simply no good. You'd need a softshell/windproof fleece in your kit as well.
To solve problem b), your outer layer is going to have to be pricey anyway, as cheap jackets (mine was a 200 quid North Face, so not exactly a piece of rubbish) tend to let water in when cold snow lands on warm, exercising person and stays there (powder day, heavy snow day). So spend on an outer layer with a proper membrane, not just a waterproof coating.
A decent hardshell (doesn't have to be ski specific) is just more versatile. Mid layers are cheap - I use 15 quid Berghaus fleeces that do the job just fine, and stuff into a pack when you're feeling a bit warm. Really cold? 2x 15 quid fleeces under the hardshell.
I don't run particularly hot or cold, unlike my GF who wears down jackets because she really does get cold. I'd say I'm pretty average. I will say this - as a beginner, when I was trying hard, insulated jackets made me sweat horribly in all conditions. Wish I had worn a hardshell with a fleece, so I could remove a layer. Instead I skiied everywhere with my jacket fully open to stay cool, earning me the nickname "Flappy Jacket Man" from my friends. They paint an endearing image of me, skiing unsuitably fast, sitting back and crouched forwards, jacket flapping behind me like a cape. Hopefully things have improved since then...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I'm trying out the rab exodus jacket this year in the hope it will stop me overheating.... So on that note I'd suggest that a major "pro" for a softshell jacket should be breathability.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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under a new name, a bit of patience. Lessons and practice can turn all of us Flappy Jacket Folk into decent enough skiers, one day. Everyone starts somewhere. 
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Harry Flashman, I'm not suggesting otherwise, but I think it was terribly cruel of your "friends" to let you behave that way, and terribly cruel of all those other folks "friends" too when a little sartorial advice would have sorted the problem in advance.
People get emotionally scarred by that sort of behaviour.
P.S. have fixed the e'icon
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You know it makes sense.
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under a new name, they even took photos, and laughed.
Years of therapy to fix. Therapy of the on-the-snow kind, obviously. 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Harry Flashman wrote: |
All pretty bang on except for this (IMHO). You generate heat when skiing, especially as a beginner, when you're really working at it. If it's snowing, the snow melts when it hits your jacket (unless it is very cold). Decent Gore Tex (or similar) membrane (not coating) will stop your jacket getting soaked from outside, and from inside by breathing properly (provided your other layers are breathable). The sort of insulation you get in cheaper ski jackets tends not to breathe very well, and the waterproofing doesn't deal well with sitting snow melting as you radiate heat.
I always had mid-priced insulated jackets, and it was always a problem on a) warm days, when I overheated and b) snowy days, when you got soaked. Last season I went to a hardshell (expensive Gore-Tex affair). And I have to say it solved both problems beautifully. "removable" insulation in the form of a midlayer made the whole getup more versatile.
To solve problem a) insulated jackets are simply no good. You'd need a softshell/windproof fleece in your kit as well.
To solve problem b), your outer layer is going to have to be pricey anyway, as cheap jackets (mine was a 200 quid North Face, so not exactly a piece of rubbish) tend to let water in when cold snow lands on warm, exercising person and stays there (powder day, heavy snow day). So spend on an outer layer with a proper membrane, not just a waterproof coating.
A decent hardshell (doesn't have to be ski specific) is just more versatile. Mid layers are cheap - I use 15 quid Berghaus fleeces that do the job just fine, and stuff into a pack when you're feeling a bit warm. Really cold? 2x 15 quid fleeces under the hardshell.
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+ 1 ( & also for the post saying use the 1st 2 trips while you work out what you need/like.)
To add more confusion and despair, have you considered or do you already own a suitable hardshell walking/hiking jacket that can be teamed with layers? the Ski specific adjuncts (ticket pocket, snow skirt, iPod pocket, wired brim soft chin bit) can be missed for the 1st time around. get a Buff though. Plenty of jackets like this at around £100 that can go on to be used for UK rainwear after. Make sure you get good wicking layers though, to keep moisture away from you, and if poss get one with pit zips in order to prevent the "endearing image" projected above ( I sympathise, I was the same once myself…)
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Poster: A snowHead
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Some very informative/entertaining replies (flappy jacket man) so far - thank you!
It seems that aside from being a cheap option there is not a lot of love for insulated jackets.
Three in one also seems to be a no.
I have read in another thread that some top end softshells are comparably waterproof to gore-tex hardshell, with the benefit of gore-tex only been seen in torrential rain that I wouldn't be skiing in anyway. I do like the idea of being able to use a jacket for other things, so I was considering one of the following:-
1) Arc'teryx Gamma MX Softshell Hoody (£230) - http://www.cotswoldoutdoor.com/arc-teryx-mens-gamma-mx-softshell-hoody-13110233?id_colour=124
2) Mountain Hardwear Isomer Jacket (£140) - http://www.cotswoldoutdoor.com/mountain-hardwear-mens-isomer-jacket-13110510?id_colour=157
Neither are cheap, but are not outrageous. I would be interested to hear opinions as to how either of these might fare.
In answer to a couple of questions asked:
1) Do I feel the cold - slightly more so that average, although I was fine in Scotland except for my hands which I thought were about to drop off at one point. I have noticed my hands getting very cold when skiing indoors whilst wearing some cheap gloves from amazon - discussion for another thread though perhaps.
2) Not going to get a definitive answer - absolutely right.  I do feel much more informed, however. Hopefully this thread will help some other first timers too. Ski gear seems to be a minefield of hype and misinformation.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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The Gamma MX is a nice bit of kit, but I wouldn't necessarily say that it is twice as good as a nice stretch-weave softshell from another brand. It is quite warm, from recollection. The Isomer looks nice enough, but it isn't clear what the fabric actually is... '2l' suggests a powershield-like arrangement, which will trade off breatheability for weather resistance. It still won't keep you dry in prolonged rain and sleet, though.
| jonnycumlately wrote: |
| 1) Do I feel the cold - slightly more so that average, although I was fine in Scotland except for my hands which I thought were about to drop off at one point. I have noticed my hands getting very cold when skiing indoors whilst wearing some cheap gloves from amazon - discussion for another thread though perhaps. |
There have been recent cold hands and glove recommendations threads; well worth a read. Make sure your core, arms and wrists are warm enough first before blowing hundreds of pounds on fancy branded handwear 
A nice long sleeved base layer may sort you out.
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Wed 27-11-13 18:26; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Serriadh wrote: |
A nice long sleeved base layer may sort you out. |
with a thumb hole that is comfy to cover the cold point where the vein crosses the wrist.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Wed 27-11-13 18:28; edited 1 time in total
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Personally I love my insulated jacket. It means I can just wear a thin base layer underneath. On a warm day, I just undo the zips/vents. I just prefer the simplicity of having one item of clothing to deal with rather than several. Plus I freak out at the thought of spending over fifty quid on a a single item of clothing. I get bored of them long before they are worn out so would hate to be stuck with the same jacket for 10 years to try and justify the expenditure.
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queen bodecia, I know what you mean. I have thrown a lot of money at mid priced kit because I liked it and wanted something new. The last two years I've done a lot of skiing though (30+ days per season) and am about to do a season - so went for something pricey that would work every day, in all conditions, and not wear out. That North Face jacket I was talking about (about 250GBP) lost its waterproofing and wore badly after just one of those 30 day seasons. Hence the move to a hardshell (which I bought at 70% off in the summer, so not all bad!). It is of course a ridiculously lairy colour, so will probably be shelved for a new one next season.
*sigh* The trials of being a kit queen.
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jonnycumlately, a chum uses an MX for much of his skiing. He has a hard shell for heli skiing.
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That is interesting - I wonder how Mountain Hardwear would justify that price difference?!
I have taken on board comments about not really knowing what my preference is going to be until I have actually hit the slopes. To that end, I am looking at the lower end of the shell market - something that will do the job, have more than one use & also leave some £ in the bank if I decide to go for an expensive hardshell down the line.
Any thoughts/comments on this?:
Outdoor Research Ferrosi Hoody - £55
http://www.cotswoldoutdoor.com/outdoor-research-mens-ferrosi-hoody-13110549?id_colour=108
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| jonnycumlately wrote: |
| That is interesting - I wonder how Mountain Hardwear would justify that price difference?! |
"A skiier and his money are soon parted"
| Quote: |
| Outdoor Research Ferrosi Hoody - £55 |
If you wear a helmet, you may find that the Ferrosi hood won't fit over the top of it, which was a deal-breaker for me.
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jonnycumlately, that's a really light jacket/jumper not really intended to be layered with more than a t-shirt or baselayer.
Shell wise, just find something you like the look of that will fit a fleece underneath. Pit zips are good, even on soft-shells and the less fancy frills and pockets the better.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| jonnycumlately wrote: |
That is interesting - I wonder how Mountain Hardwear would justify that price difference?!
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Well, Its a different material according to their specs, and it has more pockets and a ticket pocket and probably a snow skirt. And the true comparison is c £100 because the 1st one was on sale. But that's why it pays to shop about !!!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Isn't layering old hat now?
Aren't you just supposed to have one shell that is both very waterproof to keep you dry and very breathable to keep you cool and very windproof to keep you warm which is then combined with a decent base layer.
Polartec Neoshell is the answer apparently (although I haven't yet had the chance to experience it and am stuck in the past with a GoreTex Proshell hard shell jacket. It has zero ski features as its a UK walking jacket but I don't think this would be an issue unless I was up to my neck in powder (I wish))
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Hardshell, couple of lightweight fleeces, base layers (any stuff like Adidas climacool or Nike dri-fit that you have from other activities is fine). Pants - the same.
The amount of ski gear with unnecessary insulation in is redonkulous. Get a primaloft or down micro puffy if you really want that insulation.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Flet©h wrote: |
| Isn't layering old hat now? |
No. The system you just listed has limited ability to cope with reasonable changes in temperature or heat output... bring a puffy jacket to throw over the top when you get cold. If its really parky out, stick a mid over your baselayer before you leave. Layering is still the way to go.
| Flet©h wrote: |
| Polartec Neoshell is the answer apparently |
Might be worth a stab if you had a decent chunk of cash burning a hole in your pocket. There have been quite a few complaints about its longevity, which boil down to there being numerous different grades of the fabric and manufacturers who wouldn't tell you much about what you're getting. That might be fixed for this season, maybe next. It'll still be super expensive though.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Flet©h wrote: |
Isn't layering old hat now?
Aren't you just supposed to have one shell that is both very waterproof to keep you dry and very breathable to keep you cool and very windproof to keep you warm which is then combined with a decent base layer.
Polartec Neoshell is the answer apparently ) |
Polartec Neoshell is very waterproof (when new) and very breathable, but it is not very windproof.
-The high breathability comes from making the fabric air permeable, which means that it is less windproof than other shell fabrics.
I was in my local outdoor store the other day, and it struck how the myriad of different fabrics and designs is making it complicated for consumers to work out what to wear in the mountains. Conventional ski wear doesn't cope well with a range of conditions, but at least it is easy to understand.
My 2ps worth. Google 'Layering for Backcountry Snowboarding' and watch the video. Th Patagonia Micro Puff Gillet shown in the video is no longer available, but Brenig do an excellent Thinsulate one for £100.
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Poster: A snowHead
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New kit is fun and helps to scratch the skiing itch in the off-season. However, let's not forget that people have been skiing pretty comfortably in a whole range of clothes, from tweed and wool through to kevlar/goretex etc. for countless generations. Sure the materials get better and more versatile, but I do think we all get far too obsessed about our clothing and kit.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| foxtrotzulu wrote: |
| New kit is fun and helps to scratch the skiing itch in the off-season. However, let's not forget that people have been skiing pretty comfortably in a whole range of clothes, from tweed and wool through to kevlar/goretex etc. for countless generations. Sure the materials get better and more versatile, but I do think we all get far too obsessed about our clothing and kit. |
I totally agree with this. Some ski wear talk makes it sound like anyone wearing cheap insulated stuff will be lucky not to internally combust in anything other than perfect weather.
That been said....
Bearing in mind my previous jacket was considered too lightweight, does anyone have any thoughts of experience on this:
ARC'TERYX MEN'S VENTA SV JACKET
I can get from Snow & Rock for £230 using quido.
Apparently it is virtually as waterproof as a hardshell. It looks cool, not ridiculously expensive and should last me a while.
Thanks again everyone. Any further comments on the subject will be read and digested (although I suspect it is almost done to death!)[url][/url]
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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The Venta softshells use Goretex Windstopper. This is basically the same sort of stuff as conventional goretex shells, but less waterproof and with untaped seams. It is entirely windproof, unlike most other softshells... on the other hand it is as breathable as a hardshell. It is nice for when it is very cold indeed and you don't need super breathability or waterproofness. It's handy for covering bodyparts that don't need to breathe so much... makes for nice gloves and trews for example.
I wouldn't bother with it meself. If you want waterproof, get a hardshell. If you want breathable, get a conventional softshell. If you want neither, get windstopper
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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As above..... You always have to sacrifice one element when deciding on a jacket, whether it be breathability of waterproofness
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| jonnycumlately wrote: |
Bearing in mind my previous jacket was considered too lightweight, does anyone have any thoughts of experience on this:
ARC'TERYX MEN'S VENTA SV JACKET
I can get from Snow & Rock for £230 using quido.
Apparently it is virtually as waterproof as a hardshell. It looks cool, not ridiculously expensive and should last me a while.
Thanks again everyone. Any further comments on the subject will be read and digested (although I suspect it is almost done to death!)[url][/url] |
I bought this jacket recently; have been wearing it as a general winter jacket but intend to take it to the slopes as a hardshell alternative on the sunny days. I looked at the Gamma range and decided it was just too lightweight. The worst the Venta has been through so far is some very heavy wind and rain whilst up in Aberdeen (usual conditions!) and it did not leak anywhere or feel draughty. I am impressed. The soft/hard shell debate is something I have been contemplating since last season. I have been using a Salomon Sideways jacket which was very dry and windproof but I never felt entirely comfortable with the 'crispy' feel of a hardshell in cold weather. I shall still bring it along for the really cold windy days.
For the insulated question; I tend to run hot from poor technique & lack of fitness combined with enthusiasm so long ago decided on uninsulated shells with mix and match layers was the way forward with wicking mesh t-shirts, Helly Hanson thermal zip necks, and thin microfleeces like the Montane Oryx are generally all that I use. And then I still have the vents open.... My first jacket was insulated and cheap so I used to have to take it off during the breaks and lay it in the sun inside out to dry!
Something often overlooked are the trousers; these are worth spending good money on as you will tend to keep them much longer than a jacket. Also, this is where the real work is being done (heat) and the most in contact with the snow (wet). Hopefully. Again I go for minimal insulation, the highest breathability and ensure there are zipped thigh vents fitted.
Hope this helps!
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| Quote: |
I wouldn't bother with it meself. If you want waterproof, get a hardshell. If you want breathable, get a conventional softshell. If you want neither, get windstopper
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Yeah, that's right. That venta will be a lovely jacket but only ideal in niche conditions - not foul weather and not lovely weather. Don't get me wrong I really like arcteryx stuff and have a few things but I wouldn't buy that as my only ski jacket. The best do anything/swiss army knife solution is a goretex hardshell - I'd start with mountain equipment as the performance is excellent and pricing reasonable. A good hardshell will always be useful. As it happens, these days I seldom ski in a classic hardshell but that is because I have several different jackets which are ideal in different conditions - these is a complete luxury and not necessary.
One of the jackets I have and really like is an arcteryx gamma softshell - great cut, simple, comfortable, highly breathable (no membrane) - really nice in dry conditions. If you end up in sustained wet snow (never mind rain) you get soggy pretty quickly though.
Another jacket I have is a ME primaloft insulated goretex jacket (half price in a sale!) - it's a brilliant late Dec to early feb jacket, too warm later in the season. Even in nasty conditions i wear it over just a base layer. If I warm up on a run I can unzip, dump all the heat and moisture very quickly then zip up again for the lift. Layering is the most flexible solution but all those layers do make it harder to get rid of excess heat and mositure.
I agree with outhers on legs - goretex shell pants are ideal (I prefer salopets but opinions vary), just wear them over base layer/or stretch fleece tights if its really cold. I perfer calf length base layers etc so they dont get in the way of ski boot cuffs.
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Those last two posts were very useful as I still have ski pants to buy, thank you.
In the end I went for an Insulated jacket. It is the Haglofs Utvak II reduced to £180 from £320: http://www.cotswoldoutdoor.com/haglofs-utvak-ii-jacket-1a110320?id_colour=2008
My reasons for going against much of the advise above were:
1) I am fairly lean & tend to run cold. It think it is unlikely that I would ever find the built in insulation to be too much.
2) I like the unnecessary ski features - big hood, ski pass pocket, snow skirt etc. I might find them redundant, but at least I'll know!
3) My brother will be in need of a ski jacket in the future, so if I decide to go for a shell on future trips I will have a willing buyer. He is extremely lean, and really feels the cold, so it would be well suited too him.
Now for the trousers:-
I am willing to spend quite a bit of £. Is gore-tex definitely the way to go versus other highly waterproof fabrics?
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| monkey wrote: |
Almost all of us will have followed the following skiwear path:
FIRST TRIP: Traditional insulated ski wear, probably bought at significant discount in either TK Maxx or Decathlon or even borrowed from a mate.
SECOND TRIP: The same traditional insulated ski wear that we dig out of the attic from last year. It probably smells a bit foosty because it didn't get worn since last year but is still fine.
SOMEWHERE BETWEEN THIRD TRIP and PRESENT DAY: Decided what features we really want from our skiwear based on (a) comfort (b) breathability (c) waterproofness (d) budget (e) versatility - can it be worn down the pub etc and spent a reasonable amount of money on that.
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Nope, I've spent 25 years happily stuck at the tkmaxx level, and it's a good place I do actually own a couple of shell type jackets for other reasons, but for skiing I love a traditional insulated jacket and have never had any problems, nor spent more than £75...
aj xx
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| jonnycumlately wrote: |
| Is gore-tex definitely the way to go versus other highly waterproof fabrics? |
Any of the fabrics used by major brands will be more than adequate, and potentially quite a bit cheaper.
It is worth getting trews that are aimed at skiiers though, so there will be enough room in the cuff to fit over your boots and a decent area of tough fabric over the instep to stop your ski edges cutting them up.
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| jonnycumlately wrote: |
I am willing to spend quite a bit of £. Is gore-tex definitely the way to go versus other highly waterproof fabrics? |
If you like the jacket then the matching Uvtek pants would be an obvious choice. They have side vents, so if you wear just boxers underneath you will be able to open the vents on warm days.
Obviously the above advice is only relevant if they fit.
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FAQ
You might as well change the thread title now as I don't think you will get the definitive answer that you seek, sorry not much help I know. Good luck on your quest 
