oldmancoyote, I agree! I just think that such angles (and, frankly, even thinking about them) create more problems for many recreational skiers than working on the upper/lower body separation to create angulation. My goal is to avoid many of the theoretical "it's possible" aspects of skiing and focus on the practical adjustments an average recreational skier can make to enjoy their time on the mountain more. As a result, I think learning to move the inside foot forward and "out of the way" instead of learning to separate upper/lower and angulate tends to create more issues.
Do you disagree?
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
We're back to using extremes of sporting prowess to illustrate basic technique issues. That beautiful shot above is perfect to show what can be achieved by superbly fitness and intense training. His body position is his own to enable him to ski on on just one outside leg for that captured moment. The inside leg is being controlled and positioned to begin playing it's part in the transition to the next turn. For that brief time the inside ski has no role in the 'carve'.
Skiing is dynamic, there's a constant separation and swapping of roles between legs . . . that's why a balanced musculature and response is essential to develop.
Angulation and inclination are important if only for you as the skier to be able to 'feel' and adjust as needed to change the insertion angle of the primary ski edge, the mass put into it and the location of the force vector of that mass.
If you want to see high inclination just look at the extreme carving from 'Squall' riders.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
ssh, Masque, fully agree with both your posts. The "problem" if we want to call it such, is that people often take as examples people/techniques that are way too high for their current and potential capabilities. There is nothing wrong in wanting to get to that level, but there is a path...
More or less apropos, the other day I listened to a short interview to Lara Gut just after she won the first race of the season. It was humbling to hear her describe how she got back to snowplough to fix some of the issues with her skiing. So many people skiing seem to be obsessed with getting to the "advanced" technique forgetting that there is a foundation for that in other far more "basic" stuff. Perhaps if we (you) taught ski as a mix of techniques right from day 1 (i.e. "this is how you carve, this is how you parallel turn, this is how you snowplough") rather than somehow implying that some techniques as necessarily better in all circumstances, things would change. Or perhaps not, given human nature. Perspective and hindsight are wonderful things.
Sorry, will get off my soap box now. Have a good weekend, all!
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
So if we're not to use Ted as a model for carving, who should we use? No, people are not going to be able to ski exactly like him, but using principles from his skiing will help in developing carving. In the summer I watched Ted train a lot, and skied with his coach for a few hours in a clinic, so I know what he is working on, and am looking forward to helping my clients/instructors with the same drills that he uses.
So if we're not to use Ted as a model for carving, who should we use? No, people are not going to be able to ski exactly like him, but using principles from his skiing will help in developing carving.
If I wanted to learn how to paint, I wouldn't start by grabbing a paintbrush and a copy of the Mona Lisa. It might be inspiring, it might be useful later when I understand more about it, but as a beginner it would tell me absolutely nothing about how to paint.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
finestgreen wrote:
Quote:
So if we're not to use Ted as a model for carving, who should we use? No, people are not going to be able to ski exactly like him, but using principles from his skiing will help in developing carving.
If I wanted to learn how to paint, I wouldn't start by grabbing a paintbrush and a copy of the Mona Lisa. It might be inspiring, it might be useful later when I understand more about it, but as a beginner it would tell me absolutely nothing about how to paint.
As a beginner, you should go and get some lessons from an instructor, and that instructor should certainly understand how Ted's skiing works, and how the principles from it can help you learn.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Quote:
am looking forward to helping my clients/instructors with the same drills that he uses.
jimmer, but you're describing a process where an expert instructor uses his knowledge and experience to turn the drills that Ted Ligety does into something which is accessible to others which much lower level skills. Looking at the pictures and videos is always worthwhile but most of us need do need some kind of "middleman" such as yourself to provide us with something useful!
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oldmancoyote, the focus of PSIA teaching is exactly that; learn skills so you can apply them is various ways. Those are the tipping, rotary, pressure, and balance skills applied with varying duration, intensity, rate, and timing. Exactly right! I work on developing the skills and then applying them, rather than showing static (or even dynamic) positions and encouraging emulation.
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Ski the Net with snowHeads
ssh, as does every instructor in a class, but this is in an Internet forum, not a class. How are we to illustrate our points without the use of images?
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Sideshow_Bob wrote:
Masque wrote:
AAAAAAAGH! Gag me now . . .
Paging Scarpa/AvalanchePoodle to the thread
To clarify before Masque explodes I don't disagree with anything (much) that ssh is saying other than the assertion that the inside leg has nowhere to go.
Don't be silly. If you gag them you can't hear the screams
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
jimmer wrote:
So if we're not to use Ted as a model for carving, who should we use? No, people are not going to be able to ski exactly like him, but using principles from his skiing will help in developing carving. In the summer I watched Ted train a lot, and skied with his coach for a few hours in a clinic, so I know what he is working on, and am looking forward to helping my clients/instructors with the same drills that he uses.
I call poop on that specious argument. At no time other than a discussion on race training or competition should any image or video of the above nature be used . . . and here's why.
Racing skiers apply intense strength and fitness to subsume risk in applying incredibly well practiced and ingrained base technique to their individual mental and physical abilities. It bears no relationship to ANY of the goals an aspiring recreational skier.
A racer in full flight does not demonstrate good style or skill that can be used by an aspiring skier or even of any use to a smug instructor (gratuitous insult) who can say to an aspiring carver "I can see what the racer's doing and I can use that to teach you" . . . Horseѕhіt! That's just giving your ego a hand job. The aspiring carver/skier needs solid technique and mental development inside the envelope of personal and public safety and not at the absolute edge of sports performance.
The day we start using images and video of great skiers practising drills at the speeds we lesser mortals can, with much practice, reach on a public piste . . . THEN it starts getting relevant to the client, whether beginner or accomplished.
A racing skier in full flight is nothing more than a potential fatal accident and an absolute insult to both the racer and the rest us to be used in the context of any thread such as this.
Keep the racing where it belongs and start using proper skills development and appropriate imagery for the context of the thread conversation. Just what additional information did you get from a race coach to apply to recreational skiing that you should not already have?
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Masque, I think that's rubbish. skimottaret and I spent an hour yesterday while we were shut off the glacier in Tignes using a range of videos and photos for motion analysis for the clients we had been teaching all week. Some of that video included world class skiers, training and in competition, as well as footage of skiers at pretty much all other levels. Often we used the footage of the world class skiers to illustrate a point we were making about technique or tactics, referring back to things that we were actually working on with our clients on the hill. Sure, it needs careful annotation otherwise it is easy to get bamboozled by all the other things that are going on when competitors ski at their limits, but if you think we can't look to great skiers when they are in full flow and can't learn anything you are, IMO, dead wrong. I think my clients from that MA session yesterday would agree with me.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
A racer in full flight doesn't represent good style or skill? Who does then? Yes racers ski on the edge, but they use the best skiing technique out there to do so, skiing like them should be the goal of everyone who wants to carve. I think you overestimate how hard skiing like that is, you don't have to be built like Ted to get similar angles to him.
As for implying that I should have already known what I learnt from the Ted's (the Head US team) coach, you may think you already know everything, but I still get new ideas from a lot of places, and am not too proud to learn from people.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Quote:
skiing like them should be the goal of everyone who wants to carve
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I didn't think that ski racers always carved?
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Megamum wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I didn't think that ski racers always carved?
Racers do whatever it takes to be fast. Nothing else matters. Sometimes that will be cleanly carved turns, sometimes that will be throwing the skis sideways, sometimes that will be breaking the "rules" (not that there are any), but it will always be skilful.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Masque wrote:
A racing skier in full flight is nothing more than a potential fatal accident
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Quote:
Racers do whatever it takes to be fast. Nothing else matters. Sometimes that will be cleanly carved turns, sometimes that will be throwing the skis sideways, sometimes that will be breaking the "rules" (not that there are any), but it will always be skilful.
rob@rar, so sometimes they demonstrate good technique that we can learn from and sometimes we should jus watch them to admire what they can achieve by any means? i.e. A skillful instructor should know what students can learn from watching and what constitutes pure envy!!?
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Mon 11-11-13 12:02; edited 1 time in total
Megamum, I'd say it's always good technique because they are matching their skiing to the terrain (very firm snow on moderately steep pistes) and how they want to ski it (fast as f**k, along a line set by someone else). In order to do that their fundamental skiing skills have to be incredibly strong, so if we know what we are looking for we can learn a great deal, and as instructors and coaches we can highlight to our students the skills racers use are no different to the skills we are trying to develop (albeit at a much, much lower level of performance).
The key thing when looking at any world class skier, if you are using them as exemplars, is to highlight their fundamental skills and how they relate to the rest of us mortals. Other than that, just sit back and enjoy what they do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
On the racer point I was one who didn't think that isolated still images in this thread were particularly helpful to the OP topic. Struck me that they were mainly being used to illustrate or counter some technoweenie points (guilty as charged that I'd referenced Ted as someone who proved that skidding was still an essential tool rather than some second class technique). There is a value in world class skier demos but I feel they are best seen in things like LeMaster image progressions or super slomo rather than stills or realtime, otherwise a lay viewer can't really see what is going on.
I think IOS's annotated clips that use real skiers at a level to illustrate points are a very good tool, better than a top level skier "faking it" and better than the unattainable angles and positions that WC racers achieve (not least because we are never travelling at that speed in a controlled environment, regardless of skill).
fatbob, the image I posted of Ted Ligety had nothing to do with the OP. A secondary point about track width & stance width was raised by someone else, and that's what I responded to. Sometimes using extreme examples makes it easier to see what is going on.
I agree that world class skiing is best viewed in slo-mo. That's always what I do, accompanied by a running commentary and occasionally freeze frame to point out things. Even with a reasonably experienced eye I find it very difficult to see what's going on at normal speed.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
rob@rar, Sorry wasn't digging at the pic. I'm still personally agnostic on stance width - I understand the fundamental point of wanting to break away from the Austro-germanic"fiver between the bumcheeks" look in order to actually use skis' attributes but really struggle with forced bow legged stances etc. When you're tearing up your inner pant or boot cuff it's probably time to go wider
After all it is free
After all it is free
fatbob,
I ski like a cowboy but still manage to mash up my boot cuffs somehow. I think I need a camera droid to follow me so I can work out how. No point fitting a go-pro to junior though as he will never look where he's going.
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rob@rar wrote:
In order to do that their fundamental skiing skills have to be incredibly strong, so if we know what we are looking for we can learn a great deal, and as instructors and coaches we can highlight to our students the skills racers use are no different to the skills we are trying to develop (albeit at a much, much lower level of performance).
The key thing when looking at any world class skier, if you are using them as exemplars, is to highlight their fundamental skills and how they relate to the rest of us mortals.
Seem to recall almost that exact explanation several years ago from a BASI instructor. If they represent the best way to ski, then why not teach those basic skills and then the rest will come (though obviously not at the same level )
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The real distinction, I think, it between skills and the use of skills. So many times, photos are used in isolation to illustrate something that isn't even remotely close to what was happening simply to reinforce a pet theory (or to bash someone else's theory). That's not helpful to a recreational skier. While I think Masque took his point to the extreme, and I see rob@rar's counterpoint, there is validity to the core of what Masque says: we often do not understand what we are seeing when looking at an elite athlete, especially in a single frame.
If there are those who believe that angulation isn't a valuable skill for recreational skiers, that's worth a conversation. If there are those who believe I was saying that it was the only way to accomplish effective edge use, I apologize for being unclear (and perhaps mistakenly using hyperbole to make the point). I find that learning angulation is a very useful process for most recreational skiers, and has wider positive impact than guiding them in inclining into the turn. Especially when the snow gets hard. If you disagree, I'd like to understand why.
Thanks...
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
I'm driving 16hr., 700 mile days to get back to Florida to clear my apartment, buy a van and get my lardy ass to the Rockies . . . I will get back to this as its important and I see a FUNDAMENTAL disconnect between what some people think and what they actually do.
Gonna change my siĝ. to 'I do hyperbole good ' . . . na, I'll leave it as is
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
jimmer, Be specific and stop dissembling, I asked what you got from a race coach that what you can apply to teaching that you didn't already know.
Here's my question to you directly . . . What is the difference between a 'teacher' and a 'coach' . . ? It's rather important to know if you don't want to develop a bad case of self propagated athlete's throat.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
This is all getting a bit Epic Ski.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
ssh wrote:
we often do not understand what we are seeing when looking at an elite athlete, especially in a single frame.
Oh, we've done video before too. The one below was discussed recently and someone decided he could see several fundamental and basic flaws in Giorgio Rocca's free-skiing (about 2:50 in). See if you can prove you are as good an instructor as he is by spotting them too
Masque, I'm on mobile, on my last kitesurf day before the winter, so don't really have the desire to explain everything we went through in a 2 hour session. Big things for me were getting off the outside ski really early, with a drill called the reverse bicycle, lots of one legged skiing, which I liked before but will use more now, skating drills and a modified schlopy drill called the hitler.
I wouldn't say there was a huge difference between a teacher and a coach, I don't really use the term teacher in reference to skiing, why do you ask?
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
ssh wrote:
find that learning angulation is a very useful process for most recreational skiers, and has wider positive impact than guiding them in inclining into the turn. Especially when the snow gets hard. If you disagree, I'd like to understand why.
No argument here. However I still believe that a blanket statement that any inclination (be it hips, shoulders, hands) is bad and everything has to be perfectly parallel to the snow surface is incorrect. Inclination without angulation is invariably incorrect, but there's a biomechanical limit to the angles/forces one can achieve without any inclination whatsoever. Although more race-focused Greg Gurshman is as always pretty good reading here: http://www.youcanski.com/en/coaching/inclination.htm and there's another good take from an Australian trainer here: http://www.paullorenzclinics.com/#!inclination-or-angulation/cu0z . Heck, it's not a new technique either : Ron Le Master discusses it in a presentation from 2000 here: http://www.ronlemaster.com/presentations/AlpineRacingTechnique.pdf You can certainly see a level of inclination alongside angulation in any decent demonstration video of free-skiing carving turns.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
jimmer, is the reverse bicycle kind of like the drill the dude in the video above is doing at around 1:14? Edit: A bit of googling says yes:
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Sideshow_Bob wrote:
The one below was discussed recently and someone decided he could see several fundamental and basic flaws in Giorgio Rocca's free-skiing (about 2:50 in). See if you can prove you are as good an instructor as he is by spotting them too
He seems to have his bib or arms of his racesuit flapping round his arrrse.
The one below was discussed recently and someone decided he could see several fundamental and basic flaws in Giorgio Rocca's free-skiing (about 2:50 in). See if you can prove you are as good an instructor as he is by spotting them too
He seems to have his bib or arms of his racesuit flapping round his arrrse.
That was one of the clips we used when we weren't able to get on the Grand Motte, and the flappy catsuit was the only thing we were comfortable criticising as well
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
meh wrote:
jimmer, is the reverse bicycle kind of like the drill the dude in the video above is doing at around 1:14? Edit: A bit of googling says yes:.
We use that, although normally done one turn at a time from a traverse, and call it the Up 'n Over drill. I love it, and when it is done correctly really helps people to get the timing of early edge and early balance on the outside ski.
find that learning angulation is a very useful process for most recreational skiers, and has wider positive impact than guiding them in inclining into the turn. Especially when the snow gets hard. If you disagree, I'd like to understand why.
No argument here. However I still believe that a blanket statement that any inclination (be it hips, shoulders, hands) is bad and everything has to be perfectly parallel to the snow surface is incorrect. Inclination without angulation is invariably incorrect, but there's a biomechanical limit to the angles/forces one can achieve without any inclination whatsoever. Although more race-focused Greg Gurshman is as always pretty good reading here: http://www.youcanski.com/en/coaching/inclination.htm and there's another good take from an Australian trainer here: http://www.paullorenzclinics.com/#!inclination-or-angulation/cu0z . Heck, it's not a new technique either : Ron Le Master discusses it in a presentation from 2000 here: http://www.ronlemaster.com/presentations/AlpineRacingTechnique.pdf You can certainly see a level of inclination alongside angulation in any decent demonstration video of free-skiing carving turns.
Um... Sideshow_Bob? I am pretty sure I said nothing like what you've suggested here that I said! I've said that inclination is one way of increasing edge angles, but that angulation is most often required to some extent, and more so for recreational skiers than elite athletes. I certainly didn't say, "Any inclination is bad!"
In fact, here is what I said:
ssh wrote:
jimmer, I don't disagree, but I don't think your comment is in opposition to mine. If you fully incline your upper body, pressure will come off that outside ski because your legs are (approximately!) the same length. If the pelvis isn't tilted, the outside leg will lift off the snow. Has to. There's no room for anything else.
That said, you can certainly incline more with newer gear than we ever could in the "old days," especially when the snow is soft. It is helpful, though, to understand why we "angulate" so that one can adjust pressure more effectively when one discovers a dynamic different than the preferred...
So, I suppose you could read my "fully incline" differently than I intended. But, if you only incline and leave your pelvis perpendicular to your femurs, I think you'll have a difficult time pressuring that outside ski. If you can and do so effectively, more power to you! But, I won't teach such an approach as the primary means for a recreational skier to do so.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Sideshow_Bob wrote:
ssh wrote:
we often do not understand what we are seeing when looking at an elite athlete, especially in a single frame.
Oh, we've done video before too. The one below was discussed recently and someone decided he could see several fundamental and basic flaws in Giorgio Rocca's free-skiing (about 2:50 in). See if you can prove you are as good an instructor as he is by spotting them too
I have been told before that I will never make it in the ski industry...
...because I don't have the ego for it.
...and I'm perfectly fine with that!
I tend to avoid analyzing technique and skills from video or images, since they leave so much out about intent and the variety of options for accomplishing any given intent. Sometimes, I do stuff on snow simply because it's fun. I don't care about how it looks to anyone else, whether or not it's efficient, or anything else. It's fun, so I do it. A video of me doing those things would be great fodder for the Internet experts who enjoy the thrill of dissecting the fallacies of others' skiing. I couldn't be bothered.
Now, if someone wants to post video of their own skiing, describe what their intent was and how they'd like to grow in their skiing, I'm happy to give my input. Those who skied with me at EoSB '07 seemed to get something out of the time, as do my guests at Copper each season. That doesn't mean I have something to offer everyone, though...
After all it is free
After all it is free
meh wrote:
This is all getting a bit Epic Ski.
Hmmm... Could you explain what you mean by that? If I'm contributing to that sense, I would like to know, since that's precisely the opposite of my intent.
Thanks...
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
ssh wrote:
Um... Sideshow_Bob? I am pretty sure I said nothing like what you've suggested here that I said! I've said that inclination is one way of increasing edge angles, but that angulation is most often required to some extent, and more so for recreational skiers than elite athletes. I certainly didn't say, "Any inclination is bad!"
Apologies, I wasn't meaning to imply you were. We're not in any disagreement here other than splitting hairs over what's possible vs what's desirable on the full-incline thing (hence probably inducing the Epic Ski comment, guilty as charged). I only posted the video as it's arguably better to discuss motion from video mostly outside of racing than single images in the middle of a race (qn for others, compare the two, is the motion in gates much different from the free-skiing?) - it's one that came up on a previous thread and prompted some debate on dropping the inside hand/shoulder/hip.
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Tue 12-11-13 15:54; edited 1 time in total
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
fatbob wrote:
He seems to have his bib or arms of his racesuit flapping round his arrrse.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
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