 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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fatbob, thanks. I'll continue to work on not doing those things. It can be difficult to describe skiing skills and movements without technical jargon, but frankly, it's critical for an instructor/coach to do so, since most guests/students aren't going to understand that speaker who uses it! So, I find other ways of saying it. And, as mentioned, I focus on the practicalities of recreational skiers in the low- to mid-range of skills. While I help people with very high skill levels, they have far more understanding and ability to make minor changes to see dramatic differences. At the lower-end, most skiers need some insights into how to feel what they are experiencing and why. The simple process of showing a skier how sidecut of a ski impacts turn shape can have a significant impact. And that's all I care about.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| meh wrote: |
| jimmer, is the reverse bicycle kind of like the drill the dude in the video above is doing at around 1:14? Edit: A bit of googling says yes:. |
We use that, although normally done one turn at a time from a traverse, and call it the Up 'n Over drill. I love it, and when it is done correctly really helps people to get the timing of early edge and early balance on the outside ski. |
Yer it's a touch full on with the speed and the skate push, looks like good fun though.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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ssh, haha, yeah not a dig at anyone in particular, just the direction the thread seemed to be heading.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| meh wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| meh wrote: |
| jimmer, is the reverse bicycle kind of like the drill the dude in the video above is doing at around 1:14? Edit: A bit of googling says yes:. |
We use that, although normally done one turn at a time from a traverse, and call it the Up 'n Over drill. I love it, and when it is done correctly really helps people to get the timing of early edge and early balance on the outside ski. |
Yer it's a touch full on with the speed and the skate push, looks like good fun though. |
That's the one, I guess it would work well with a traverse, but maybe better from an actual turn, as it's focus is getting off the outside ski as early as possible, I think the voice in the background of that video is the guy who showed me the drill.
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jimmer, Interesting in that I have been given that exact drill as an activation warm up at very slow speed to help slow down my transition when on long radius GS skis and had progressed to doing those today at full pelt and it was pretty sporty  As Rob said we use this drill set a lot and the progression we use is first extending off the little toe edge of the uphill ski in traverse to then toppling over into a one legged turn and repeat ( up and over) and occasionally if client's skill base is high enough doing the linked turns as per the video you reference but at much slower speeds and on easier terrain...
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| jimmer wrote: |
Masque, I'm on mobile, on my last kitesurf day before the winter, so don't really have the desire to explain everything we went through in a 2 hour session. Big things for me were getting off the outside ski really early, with a drill called the reverse bicycle, lots of one legged skiing, which I liked before but will use more now, skating drills and a modified schlopy drill called the hitler.
I wouldn't say there was a huge difference between a teacher and a coach, I don't really use the term teacher in reference to skiing, why do you ask? |
Bit of a resurrection as I became sidetracked: Jimmer, the difference between a teacher and a coach is that a teacher provides the skills/techniques for the student/athlete to learn . . . A coach develops the student/athlete to use them. There is a small overlap sometimes that is variable to a situation but the roles are distinct and separate.
The job of a ski instructor may move toward coaching with a higher level student but the primary task is to provide your client with a solid grounding in all techniques and behaviours to be used in a safe manner in a public space.
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Masque, well said, Mate! I cross back and forth across that distinction quite often, but I like it and will use it with my guests...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Masque, ssh, OK guys, so at what point does a skier move from needing an instructor to needing a coach?
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When she understands the skills and techniques, is familiar with the drills to train them, but wants guidance in applying them and disciplining herself to improve the blends and the DIRT.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Megamum, They don't until it becomes their profession/obsession/depression. Reading some of these threads on technique basics I tend to ask the question when will instructors stop pretending they are coaches.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Masque, ha! And when will avid skiers stop pretending they are instructors. 
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ssh, If I actually manage to pass an exam  However I have been a qualified sports 'Coach'.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Masque wrote: |
| I tend to ask the question when will instructors stop pretending they are coaches. |
Just curious, how do you distinguish between the (mere?) instructors and those who are (amazing?) coaches based entirely on their ability to write short posts on an Internet forum?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Megamum wrote: |
| Masque, ssh, OK guys, so at what point does a skier move from needing an instructor to needing a coach? |
When his or her ego and/or bank balance deems it necessary?
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Poster: A snowHead
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Masque, wasn't a comment aimed at you! Just the general commentary I've read over the years on various Internet skiing forums. I still have a lot to learn, and it's always amazing to me how many believe, on the he basis of their ability to get down a steep piste, that they have deep and skilled understanding of skiing skills, technique, and the teaching thereof. Given that I, as an "expert skier/former racer" of 30+ years, had to essentially rebuild my skiing from the snow up when i embarked on my hobby of ski instruction! I think that many people think they know *FAR* more about skills, technique, and teaching than they actually do. ...and Internet evidence continues to reinforce this hypothesis...!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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rob@rar, tongue was planted firmly in blue touch paper . . . however there is a gist of truth in the comment. Just as in this thread everything quickly moves into to realms of sports performance rather than skills development. You brought in some much needed sense in your posts but you were washed away with all the racing analogies. I'll be the first to laud the use of high performance examples when the question is about race training.
I don't want my Granddaughter to be taught to drive by someone fixated by the driving prowess of Seb Vettel using a pic of his Red Bull car mid corned to say "that's the way to do it" I want her taught by Bob from the BSM who will teach her how, why and within the rules to drive a car on a road and not kill herself or anyone else. Racing has no relevance to driving a car in the real world nor learning to ski on an open piste. Learning to race is different and shouldn't be part of any discussion about learning to ski.
Here's an even easier one: I can teach you to draw. I can teach you about pencils and chalks; About papers and cardstock; About perspective both straight and curved . . . and all the minutia of putting, pushing, pulling, rubbing and erasing a mark on a surface. At the end of that you will be able to produce a perfectly accurate and competent representation of what you are looking at. What I don't do is give you a crayon and a wall then point to a Leonardo silverpoint cartoon and say "do it like that." That involves development in the use of the tools I've given you, the parts of what you see to diminish or augment, to leave out or create from within your mind, for you to become the artist that takes a competent drawing and makes it something that will drag your eyes and heart into the image to the distraction of everything else. The difference between teaching and coaching.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Masque, we're going around in circles on this, but I think using a wide range of examples including world class skiers, carefully selected and explained, can be beneficial (and inspirational) for recreational skiers. You seem not to agree. I guess we will have to live with that difference of opinion, because I can't believe either of us can persuade the other.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Masque, so unless I am coaching I am not allowed to look at racers for a model of how to ski? This thread isn't about how to wedge, it's about carving, a high level skill, and the best examples can be found in racing. And also, it's not a ski lesson, it's a discussion forum, we have to illustrate our points with something.
When (if) you teach a class you are free to teach your clients to ski safely and defensively like a driving instructor if you like, but a lot of my clients want to learn how to get some performance out of the ski.
The distinction between coach and teacher is not as clear cut as you think and instructors have to do both. The next 3 weeks I am only training instructors and L1 candidates, with your definitions will I be teaching or coaching?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Wow, epic coaching debate guys. I have a wee question though that is slightly more in line with the OP - how do you really know when you are carving? What is the specific technique/sensation? As far as I'm aware it's a smooth arced turn without any skidding - is that correct? The sensation I've assumed to be carving or at least not dissimilar to it is when skiing fast and executing the turns by simply tipping onto the edge and getting the feeling of it almost 'catching a rail' and turning in a really smooth and gentle curve.
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| Quote: |
point to a Leonardo silverpoint cartoon and say "do it like that."
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You might, on the other hand, point to the cartoon and explain how the artist used the techniques you've already explained in the context of achieving a particular intent. Pointing to a racing skiier and saying "Mimic this position" would be obviously wrong; but explaining what forces were acting on him, how it would feel to ski like that, why he might have chosen to move in that particular way, how the ski would act differently if his position was different in particular ways...
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rob@rar, jimmer, you still don't get it. If you are fine tuning the carving of an advanced skier you are effectively being a coach, you're developing the individual you are not teaching him/her how to carve which is why racing and all to do with racing has no place in teaching until the student has a solid fundamental understanding and application of the base skill or technique. Even then The speeds, forces and body positioning of a World Class skier in full flight are not something to even attempt to emulate on an open piste.
finestgreen, You're there, I will teach the different shading methods, the student will practice them repeatedly learning the tricks and subtleties and once mastered I will 'suggest' (coach) different ways for the student to play with and apply it within their own design visions . . . even down to copying/mimicry once they can use the technique.
The contortions of a racing skier to get around a turn are counter-productive to someone who wants to start or learn to carve.
The techniques and skills of many top end athletes are their own and unique, they've been developing them over many years to suit their own body morphology, personal development, non-commercial equipment and sport rules.
jimmer,
| Quote: |
| The distinction between coach and teacher is not as clear cut as you think and instructors have to do both. The next 3 weeks I am only training instructors and L1 candidates, with your definitions will I be teaching or coaching? |
Internal sports development is a mixture of both teaching and coaching, you understand the distinction of roles. training instructors will entail evaluation, critique and development of existing skills and separately teaching any missing or new skills. The Level 1s will be students who if they do not have the required skillset will have to go back and start again because you will be teaching them how to instruct, if you have the time you will also spend a little suggesting they continue to practice and self develop the curriculum drills I don't know if you will be teaching them 'How To Ski', isn't there a filter level they need to have before embarking on a course?
But that is not the paying client relationship of learning how to ski. and unless you are taking your trainees or your client into training for TT or Eurotest, racing imagery has no place in developing a consistent and clear demonstration technique.
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| Masque wrote: |
| rob@rar, jimmer, you still don't get it. |
John, with the greatest respect, I do this for a living. I have a bit more experience of teaching/coaching skiing than you do, typically ranging from skiers beginning to make parallel turns through to skiers working towards Level 2 instructor exams. As you don't actually do it I don't think you're in a good place to decide whether I get it or not Sometimes I find a reference to a world class skier is a useful teaching tool. Not the only tool, and never as "look at that, now do the same". But as a way of illustrating a particular skill or movement it can be useful.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Megamum wrote: |
medlington, I am still at an early stage of learning and I have def. had it presented that a skidded turn should be something actively taught and learned. rob@rar, has certainly advocated this approach and IIRC Fastman actually devotes some fair sections of his website to discussing the skidded turn and why it is important to be able to do. I am not an instructor, but I am a learner, I can see the point of learning it and I can't agree with your comment:
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So at no point would the 'skid' be a taught technique.
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As I am sure it IS a valid and taught technique because I have been taught about it. |
Also, the carve radius of most skis is quite large. Mine are 15 meters. If you need to make a turn in less than 15 meters, you have to 'skid'.
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| dangerMouse! wrote: |
| Also, the carve radius of most skis is quite large. Mine are 15 meters. If you need to make a turn in less than 15 meters, you have to 'skid'. |
Please correct me if I'm wrong but can't you load your skis up to effectively decrease the ski radius?
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Mon 25-11-13 13:05; edited 1 time in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Having recently been on an Inside Out weekend with Rob and Scott, I’d personally say Rob has the use of such examples spot on. We did video analysis of various skiers to evaluate skills on the Sunday that we’d been working on the day before. I found it enormously useful to see and talk through the various examples used, including Ted Ligety, and found the overall approach (analysis as well as onslope instruction) made a big difference to my annoyingly rudimentary carving skills.
It was never presented as ‘here’s what you should do’ and I never thought of it as an exact stance I should be in – instead it came across very clearly as an extreme example from a top-flight athlete, and contrasted very well with other examples presented from all different levels of skiers to show how stance, angles etc can vary depending on speed, ability, physical prowess/limitations, and desired results.
Since the weekend I’m desperate to get back on snow and work through a whole range of drills Scott had us doing, and using the greater understanding I now think I have based on the excellent analysis and discussion from Rob and Scott, including the more extreme examples. And no, I have no intention of trying to emulate Mr Ligety! That’s way faster than I would feel comfortable going, and I do not have the physical training/fitness etc to pull that off 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Daishan wrote: |
| dangerMouse! wrote: |
| Also, the carve radius of most skis is quite large. Mine are 15 meters. If you need to make a turn in less than 15 meters, you have to 'skid'. |
Please correct me if I'm wrong but can't load your skis up to effectively decrease the ski radius? |
You are right in theory. In fact the (theoretical) problem is making "pure carved turns" with a radius larger than the "free radius" of the ski. In practice we all know these are "easy" but the smaller radius turns are "difficult".
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| Daishan wrote: |
| dangerMouse! wrote: |
| Also, the carve radius of most skis is quite large. Mine are 15 meters. If you need to make a turn in less than 15 meters, you have to 'skid'. |
Please correct me if I'm wrong but can't you load your skis up to effectively decrease the ski radius? |
If you tip your skis over more, the radius of the turn is decreased.
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You know it makes sense.
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rob@rar, +1, when Masque has actually taught skiing then I'll take his views on how I teach a bit more seriously.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| jimmer wrote: |
| Daishan wrote: |
| dangerMouse! wrote: |
| Also, the carve radius of most skis is quite large. Mine are 15 meters. If you need to make a turn in less than 15 meters, you have to 'skid'. |
Please correct me if I'm wrong but can't you load your skis up to effectively decrease the ski radius? |
If you tip your skis over more, the radius of the turn is decreased. |
ah that makes sense! so if skis have a variable carve radius how to they calculate the published figure, e.g. 15 meters?
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Poster: A snowHead
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| dangerMouse! wrote: |
| ah that makes sense! so if skis have a variable carve radius how to they calculate the published figure, e.g. 15 meters? |
This blog from Phil Smith of Snoworks explains things in more detail.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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emwmarine, 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Daishan wrote: |
| dangerMouse! wrote: |
| Also, the carve radius of most skis is quite large. Mine are 15 meters. If you need to make a turn in less than 15 meters, you have to 'skid'. |
Please correct me if I'm wrong but can't you load your skis up to effectively decrease the ski radius? |
Yes.
The measurement of radius isn't of a ski being used, but the radius of the sidecut of the ski when flat (draw a circle continuing the sidecut; the radius of that circle is the reported radius of the ski).
However, if you put a ski on edge and decamber it by pressuring it, you (dramatically!) shorten the radius. If you use fore/aft pressure, you can alter it even more. The flex (and, to a lesser degree, the torsional rigidity) come into play in terms of how the ski actually performs when in use.
So, the "radius" of a ski is but one of a number of variables that will determine how the ski works for a given skier on-snow.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| rasmanisar wrote: |
| Wow, epic coaching debate guys. I have a wee question though that is slightly more in line with the OP - how do you really know when you are carving? What is the specific technique/sensation? As far as I'm aware it's a smooth arced turn without any skidding - is that correct? The sensation I've assumed to be carving or at least not dissimilar to it is when skiing fast and executing the turns by simply tipping onto the edge and getting the feeling of it almost 'catching a rail' and turning in a really smooth and gentle curve. |
That seems a pretty fair description. FWIW, I will review my tracks to make sure that the sensations I feel are reflected in my tracks. If I don't see two distinct and consistent lines (one for each ski), then I know I've not "carved". In my best turns, the transition from the uphill edges to the downhill edges are very clear, as well, with the tracks "hopping downhill" one ski width.
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FAQ
