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Carving > 100mm skis

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Tim Heeney, agreed and interestingly the uphill, less pressured, ski can have greater flex with only the tip and tail engaged whereas the downhill ski flex is limited by the initial ark of the tip cut. This is at higher speeds than nice clean RRtracks. This only noticeable on really hard/icy surfaces
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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rob@rar wrote:
Masque wrote:
If most of your terrain requires 100+mm waist skis then you will rarely need to carve them down an icy black or even spend much time 'in groomed resort' so I really don't see the purpose of the OP?
Do you agree that one of the key skills you develop when you are learning to carve, beginning the turn by tipping the ski on to their edges rather than twisting them, is a valuable skill for all the mountain not just skiing on firm snow? If you're skiing quickly in powder or chopped up snow you don't want to twist the skis too much at the start of the turn because the consequences of 'catching an edge' will be dramatic!

Absolutely. . . . see I don't always try to pee you off wink
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Masque, you never pee me off, no matter what your intention wink

Rather than focusing on "carving" I'm much more interested in how turns are initiated. I see lots of people get their skis on to a big edge angle at some point in the turn, and the ski will be happy to follow that edge (although not always if you also give it a big twist). However, relatively few people do this all the way around the turn, often rushing the setup of the turn by pushing the ski sideways or twisting it so it doesn't grip the snow. If they don't have the skill to initiate a turn with no perceptible rotation in the relatively benign circumstances of a firm, smooth piste, how can we expect them to do it when the conditions are much more complex such as deep snow, chopped lumpy snow, etc? That's why I think developing carving skills on piste is a pretty good preparation for skiing all the mountain.

Going back to your springtime slush conundrum, I think there's only two ways to ski it: very slow, with lots of rotation as if it is a bump field; or very fast with little rotation. I think medium speeds with a medium amount of rotation blended in to your turn makes skiing slush much less fun that it should be.
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rob@rar, I think that this is where I benefit from being a snowboarder. Unless I carve I'm just a bulldozer moving snow around the mountain and initiating a carve on a board requires isolation at the hips. Small downhill (leading leg, regular or switch) pressure and while the upper body stays up and focussed on where we want to go, a slight knee relax puts pressure into the toe or heelside and the board simply transitions onto an edge. It's very gentle and progressive. You can make it much more aggressive with larger mass shifts and twisting torque ('pedaling' NOT twist steering) but until you get into that aggressive carve then an on piste carve is begun very gently. It's the same when I'm on tele bindings. Because I have very limited ability to apply forward pressure I have to break at the hip and use the ski's natural sidecut to initiate the carve turn, You saw that at VT, again that is quite gentle and progressive. A morning on alpine did break me of that but there is a large envelope of technique to embrace just in carving.

The slush was too soft and the skis were way too deep to rotate and too slow unless I sat back and put them planing aka aquafoil. Fun but tiring
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Masque wrote:
The slush was too soft...
Yeah, there's slush and there's slush. It was pretty hot in Val Thorens that week and the water content in the snow from early afternoon onwards was very high, so the skis were grabbing really badly. I chose to spend more time sitting in the sun with a drink and company!
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Its was quite interesting testing different skis on the eosb last season. If you are really honest with yourself, you can tell when a ski is too much for you to handle. Its quite easy to get sucked into(and blinded by) all of the marketing and cowdoo. Sometimes the gap between the kit that some people use and their ability is massive.

If you struggle and have to sit back in slush when using race skis then I would imagine that the skis are too stiff for your ability or you need to adapt your technique. Nothing wrong with that, they are a handful.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
I know I would have struggled with the Kneissl White Stars a few years ago.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
kitenski wrote:
livetoski, at 5:20 they ain't what I'd call carved turns I'm afraid!

aha, found something Smile


http://youtube.com/v/7KPHHvKNPaU


I loved watching that - fantastic.

I am happily getting far enough over for carved turns both short (harder) and long (pretty easy) on 89mm skis now, after some hard work on angles and edge control last season (as in lessons, and a lot of of practice). And, frankly, on anything steeper than an easy red, I don't think I have ever properly linked carved turns without pivoting too. Ever.

I have a whole season out in France this year. That vid gave me something to aim for on my new 112mm underfoot fellas (Preachers, so sidecut should help, no?). I get the impression that starting on a nice easy blue, with no-one else around, is going to be the way to practice this...

I know it's not what fat skis are designed for, and mine are for powder days - but I will be taking them out onto the piste and mastering carving on the fatties. It just looks like so much fun!
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Harry Flashman wrote:
... but I will be taking them out onto the piste and mastering carving on the fatties. It just looks like so much fun!
Good for you! If you can manage it on wide skis with a long turn radius then you'll have it completely nailed and your performance on regular piste skis is going to be so much stronger Happy
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 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Raceplate wrote:
balernoStu wrote:

(OT) Raceplate, is the 79mm piste ski as much fun on hard/refrozen pistes as GS skis? I might be soon to buy something similar.

No, definitely not. In truth I only really trust them for the latter two-thirds of the season. I'm actually very keen to get something around 70mm for hard snow, even if I only use them in December/January. I missed early season last year but if I go away this December I'm going to play with the side edge angle to see how much that helps.



As I read down this thread, it just gets more interesting!

For January skiing last year, a 3 degree edge angle on my 79mm twin tips did me a world of favours. It really did...but it made them horrific in the park (somewhat unsurprisingly)

But completely depends on the skier, IMHO. My friend, Swiss, expert, always skis piste biased skis, everywhere. He loved my skis in softer snow. Utterly detested them on hard pack - his better technique meant that the big edge angle I had tuned onto them to help me to rail/carve them was too on-off for him. His superior edge control meant he didn't rely on the sharp edge to hold him, but rather his subtler movements. Or something. Anyway, he kept falling over mid carve, which I found hilarious. Then, of course, he mastered them and looked effortless everywhere.

He grew up on straight skis, went racing slalom and bumps, and swears by GS skis. Reluctantly went to a K2 90mm ski for some powder days last season, and still outskiied everyone else in our group (except my OH, who is an equally strong skier, for similar reasons, and who still skis her banged up, ancient 165cm, mens 67mm K2 Apaches), regardless of what they were on. As someone said, time on snow and training. And starting when 2.5 years old, I expect.

But as others have said, carving is not everything. But it is such a wonderful feeling. Rob - your comments on turn initiation for carving is almost verbatim what I was taught at the Warren Smith Academy, and also by Parallel Lines in Meribel - so there has to be something in that. I was doing exactly what you and others have commented on - rushing it and also giving a little sideways kick or push to initiate, unconsciously. Which was making the whole thing so much harder when trying to link, especially at speed on hard piste (where that kick was pushing me off balance and out of control). And just as you said, that fault in variable snow/powder was enough to send me flying when initiating a turn (especially at medium speed, actually). On piste I was getting away with it and still looking OK. When it got steep and deep, I wasn't. A great example of something easily practised on piste that resonates everywhere else.

So much more practice needed. Luckily I have 3 months out there to get this right. As well as a number of other things too (moguls, anyone?)


Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads on Tue 29-10-13 12:24; edited 1 time in total
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Harry Flashman wrote:
I was doing exactly what you and others have commented on - rushing it and also giving a little sideways kick or push to initiate, unconsciously. Which was making the whole thing so much harder when trying to link, especially at speed on hard piste (where that kick was pushing me off balance and out of control). And just as you said, that fault in variable snow/powder was enough to send me flying when initiating a turn (especially at medium speed, actually). On piste I was getting away with it and still looking OK. When it got steep and deep, I wasn't. A great example of something easily practised on piste that resonates everywhere else.
That's exactly right, IMO, and very perceptive of you to understand how developing a core skill in an easy learning situation is a good way to improve your skiing when the situation is much more challenging.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Been quite enjoying this thread, esp. the opposite poles of rob@rar, and Tim Heeney, on the maths / physics of skiing. Before I forget, can I recommend Ron Le Master's book to both (though I suspect Rob's already read it but being modest...). Helped me a lot to understand what's going on under my feet and within my body, but definitely to be drawn on sparingly with clients!

No escaping the physics though. Take a pair of planks a foot wide each. Nail a plimpsoll to each. Put them on and now get the planks on to their edges. I expect you'll be a long time trying. Now try again with planks two inches wide - much easier? Now try again with a pair of ice skates - you barely have to twitch and the blades are on their edges. The difference between them is that the foot-wide boards exert a massive leverage across your ankles, so make it impossible to set on edge.

Now apply the theory to skinny skis and fat skis which are all somewhere between the extremes. There. Lots of physics but not an equation in sight...
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
bobski62, Yes, I've got both editions of LeMaster's book and use the 2nd edition more than any other book on skiing. I don't like to name drop, well, not too much, but here's a photo of me and Ron wink
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
bobski62, good analogy! I think with modern ski boots though that the extra leverage is a knee killer more than the ankles, which is as good a reason as any to leave the fat skis off piste where they belong. Very Happy
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Harry Flashman,
Quote:
on anything steeper than an easy red, I don't think I have ever properly linked carved turns without pivoting too

Not many people do! I only claim to have carved the Face in Meribel (black) once in 50 odd weeks of skiing down it when the snow had exactly the right balance of give and grip and I was feeling particularly athletic. I'm not sure it'll happen again unless I get some slalom skis.

Quote:
For January skiing last year, a 3 degree edge angle on my 79mm twin tips did me a world of favours.

That's what I want to try. Was interesting to read your comments about your friend. My normal edge is 2 so I can't see that 3 is going to be revelationary but will be interesting. I'm expecting it really to just feel like the difference between a really good service and a crap one. There's quite a few recommendations on the net that suggest 1,3 is best for advanced/experts and I'm quite influenced by this guy who seems to be respected on Epicski http://www.skimd.com/parameters.php He argues that all modern skis should be on 1,3 or 1,4 for race skis. It's also standard for some manufacturers anyway - Atomic, Fischer, Whitedot, - and Stockli and Kastle race skis - so it can't be that radical. Funnily enough, they're all brands that seem to have a strong piste performance reputation so there must be something in it.

Quote:
well as a number of other things too (moguls, anyone?)

Good luck with the bumps on your 112mm skis! Very Happy
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
So my hunch was right then rob@rar. Nice to put a face to a name, btw - will keep an eye out for you in Les Arcs this season. Best book I've ever read on skiing. Though Christophe Ancey comes a close second (if rather different subject matter).

Yes Raceplate, knees defo one place to counteract the effect of that twisting force the fat skis are creating - and hips, etc (grannies / eggs no doubt, esp. to a possible ex-racer?!). But the leverage is being created around a point just below the foot - so working the ankles the opposite way can also be important. Even in a stiff boot there's a surprising amount to play with there.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Raceplate wrote:

Good luck with the bumps on your 112mm skis! Very Happy


Smile

I'll be back on my 167cm, 65mm, battered old planks for my mogul practice!
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Have a look at Icelantic skis. Big side cuts make them easy to carve BUT you have to be committed and really lay them over, as with any wide skis. You also have to realise that the flex of an off-piste oriented ski isn't going to allow you to carve through the gates on a bullet proof piste. Things can get a bit nerve wracking. On piste in new or spring snow, then no problem if you have the ability - because the skis do
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Harry Flashman wrote:
Raceplate wrote:

Good luck with the bumps on your 112mm skis! Very Happy


Smile

I'll be back on my 167cm, 65mm, battered old planks for my mogul practice!


Bumps are no problem on big skis.

Btw as your Preachers have a deep sidecut an trad camber, you should have no problem carving them, unless the pistes are bulletproof.

--------

Skied with a guy who was having no problem carving his 140mm (but trad camber/sidecut) Nordica Jah Loves today. Racer though, which goes some way to explaining it.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
clarky999, i would note, however, that it's a bit odd onwider skis as they force your legs apart in bumps, which is at least odd, if not gets right in the way...
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I haven't skied anything wider than 100mm and those are quite shaped (19m radius). I can carve on those under most conditions but struggle as it gets both steeper and firmer - i.e., very firm blues - doable, very firm reds - pretty tricky, needs a BIG commitment to get from one edge to the other with enough edge angle to hold the new edge (i.e. LOTS!), softer pistes are fine, even blacks if they are not too narrow.

Obviously they are not ideal for the purpose - if I knew I was going to be spending most of the day on-piste I'd prefer to be on something stiffer and narrower.

Don't have any vids - only have footage on those skis off piste but if this thread is running later in the season perhaps I'll post some up.
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