 Poster: A snowHead
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I can carve my Movement Jams easily on piste (85 under foot).
However, my Majesty Superior, which are 115 underfoot, are very hard to carve on piste. Also, I find that when I do have to ski on piste for any length of time on the superiors, my knees get quite achey which I can only put down to the different loading from a ski which is wider than my boot, as it'll be adding lateral forces to the knee which just aren't present when the edge is under the foot.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| andy wrote: |
Where I would comment though is, is there a need or want to get to pure carve on piste on such wide skis designed for use off-piste? I'd certainly accept a compromise when taking a ski on to terrain that's not really what they were designed for. |
^ This & I'm not sure the real intent behind the OP's question? To get everyone to agree punter GS skis or lessons are great and that most people are delusional about their ability? To suggest a carving police who clamp down on every punter who is applying the non-pure terminology?
Last time I looked skiing was fun and it only really seems to be badge chasers who are obsessed with the perfect carve. Plus racers while it remains the fastest line through the gates. If guys like Ligety can operate without it (by necessity rather than lack of ability) how essential is it in the real world other than an extreme reference point for the blend of toolkit that gets applied? Flame off.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| fatbob wrote: |
| Last time I looked skiing was fun and it only really seems to be badge chasers who are obsessed with the perfect carve. Plus racers while it remains the fastest line through the gates. If guys like Ligety can operate without it (by necessity rather than lack of ability) how essential is it in the real world other than an extreme reference point for the blend of toolkit that gets applied? Flame off. |
I think your final point sums it up for me. It is at one end of the spectrum of ways in which we can steer our skis. A useful skill to develop, and something which I think all skiers should aspire to. Having good skills so you can initiate a turn with very little perceptible rotation has application beyond just carving linked turns on firm snow. But having said that, it's one tool in the toolbox and no more or less important than the others.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
it's one tool in the toolbox and no more or less important than the others.
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And if the only tool you have is a hammer, everything becomes a nail....
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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kitenski, so your biases have been confirmed. 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Might as well chuck my 2p in...
I'd probably have lost interest in skiing if it wasn't for carving.
For me, it is the single most enjoyable feeling in the sport and brings me more pleasure than anything else except heli-skiing (which, unfortunately, I can't afford on a daily basis  ).
I may, of course, just be a lazy skier but in terms of effort/reward it's outstanding. 10 mins relaxing on a chairlift for 1-2 kms of pure carving pleasure on piste. Compare that with a 10-20 minute hike for 100m of powder eights and 9 times out of 10 I'd take the chairlift. Add carving into the itinerary mix and it's even more fun doing GS size turns down an open powder bowl or blasting through crud. Sure, I've got a couple of badges and I learnt to ski bumps, steeps and short turns to make myself a reasonably rounded skier but it's carving that brings me back to the sport, it's carving that gives me the buzz.
It never fails to amaze me that I can just stand on my ski and it does all the work. If I want to turn tighter, I push a little harder or drop my hips a bit. If I want to relax or ski bigger arcs I stand a little more upright. That's it! So simple! Such a genius design concept I wonder how anyone ever enjoyed straight cut skis.
With regards to the OP, I learnt carving on 64mm GS skis and stayed on that width for about 13 weeks of skiing before moving to mid 70mm's for the next 30 odd weeks. After another 12 weeks on 85mm skis I reckoned my carving skills were waning and I moved back to a stiff 79mm waist as my piste ski which I'm very happy with.
I have 110mm powder skis too and can carve them on softish piste but they are so sensitive to edge angle compared to a narrower ski that it's just not pleasurable. In fairness, that's not helped by their soggy rockered tip and I'm sure a wide cambered stiff ski would be a lot easier.
I'm very much in the camp that says if you want to learn the skill (and the pleasure) properly, get a narrow ski.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| kitenski, The biggest problem I see with people trying to develop that skill is they are impatient at the start of the turn and push the ski sideways, not engaging the skis' edges until fairly close to the fall line rather than the moment when the turn starts. |
Thought this was interesting.
Can't say I've done much carving teaching to the general public but when acquaintances ask me to analyse their carving/tracks I always think it's the apex of the turn where it all goes wrong. Seems to me that they can get a clean edge going across the fall line but lose their nerve that the ski will continue turning as they enter the fall line/turn apex and flatten the ski perhaps with a little heel flick before resuming a clean edge as they start to traverse again. The very point where they should be increasing their edge angle is the actual point where they soften it. I was taught to concentrate on long leg/short leg at that point which naturally creates a stronger outside edge angle and solves the problem.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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fatbob,
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how essential is it in the real world other than an extreme reference point for the blend of toolkit that gets applied?
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It's not essential at all. But the difference in pleasure between hacking your way down 2km of cruddy piste in scrappy skid turns and effortlessly carving it is immeasurable 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Raceplate wrote: |
With regards to the OP, I learnt carving on 64mm GS skis and stayed on that width for about 13 weeks of skiing before moving to mid 70mm's for the next 30 odd weeks. After another 12 weeks on 85mm skis I reckoned my carving skills were waning and I moved back to a stiff 79mm waist as my piste ski which I'm very happy with.
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I think this might set you apart from the average skiing punter who might aspire to that many weeks over a lifetime And presumably you weren't just carving all that time? Bumps/crud/pow/corn?
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Raceplate, in my experience once people are balanced on their edges they are happy to stand there until they have turned as much as they want. But getting to that point without twisting the ski or pushing it sideways is usually the challenge. I don't think anyone I've taught can initiate a cleanly edged turn but then comes off their edges half way through the turn. The little push or twist at the start of the turn is often a deeply ingrained habit.
Once they can initiate a clean transition then I'll then look to work on managing turn shape by changing the edge angle so they can open or tighten the turn.
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You know it makes sense.
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kitenski, good OP question I'd say, as I also really enjoy carving on piste and may only have space for 1 pair of skis on a trip. The replies confirm that 100mm+ still wouldn't be a good choice in my case unless going somewhere sure to snow a lot. But then I'm still new to the idea that 80mm is narrow...
(OT) Raceplate, is the 79mm piste ski as much fun on hard/refrozen pistes as GS skis? I might be soon to buy something similar.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Raceplate wrote: |
It's not essential at all. But the difference in pleasure between hacking your way down 2km of cruddy piste in scrappy skid turns and effortlessly carving it is immeasurable |
Depends what your crud is and how you're skidding of course, but I know what you mean. Of course the nature of the crud might redefine the tool for the job - mid April late afternoon?
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Poster: A snowHead
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I think I can carve pretty much anything (with sidecut) in the right conditions, but the range of conditions in which I can carve clearly reduces or increases depending on what sort of ski I am on. So, I have done pure carves on 40m turn radius Dynastar XXLs... maybe about 5 turns since I have owned them! My DPS112s are actually wider underfoot but have a much smaller turn radius so I can pure carve them in a much wider range of conditions - but they certainly wouldn't be my first choice if easy carving was my sole intention. no video evidence of any of this, I'm afraid, although I think Kitenski may have been present when I performed one of my XXL carved turns. He may not have been aware of the significance of this at the time though
This has been done to death before, but I don't think anyone really means that fat skis carve as well as dedicated piste carvers. They often say they carve "surprisingly well", which is fair enough but such a subjective statement that it's not really worth getting in an argument about
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| fatbob wrote: |
| Last time I looked skiing was fun and it only really seems to be badge chasers who are obsessed with the perfect carve. Plus racers while it remains the fastest line through the gates. If guys like Ligety can operate without it (by necessity rather than lack of ability) how essential is it in the real world other than an extreme reference point for the blend of toolkit that gets applied? Flame off. |
I think your final point sums it up for me. It is at one end of the spectrum of ways in which we can steer our skis. A useful skill to develop, and something which I think all skiers should aspire to. Having good skills so you can initiate a turn with very little perceptible rotation has application beyond just carving linked turns on firm snow. But having said that, it's one tool in the toolbox and no more or less important than the others. |
I agree with you both to an extent, but I also think that carving, whilst only part of a toolbox of skills, is also the most advanced part, and something to be aspired to. When I see great skiers ski, they are typically carving, I very, very rarely admire anyone's skiing for the the rotation skills they have. This might just be because personally I love the sensation, but I also think it's because it's using the ski design to it's maximum.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| balernoStu wrote: |
(OT) Raceplate, is the 79mm piste ski as much fun on hard/refrozen pistes as GS skis? I might be soon to buy something similar. |
No, definitely not. In truth I only really trust them for the latter two-thirds of the season. I'm actually very keen to get something around 70mm for hard snow, even if I only use them in December/January. I missed early season last year but if I go away this December I'm going to play with the side edge angle to see how much that helps.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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When I crank my Whitedot Preachers (112 underfoot and 14m radius) right over they sure as hell feel feel like they're carving; and fast too. However reading the above I may reserve judgement and humility until I get some photo / video proof 
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I had fun carving on my GS skis last week in Solden. Proper fun hooning around on a pair of 188 Head iGS RD's. Most fun I have had on a pair of skis for a while!
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rob@rar, Hi Rob. I wonder and value your opinion. Given a ski edge in undeformed air has a parabolic shape and when this edge is pressed into the snow at a specific and only one specific angle, then the ski will deform into a true curve radius of the specified ski.
It seems to me that there can only be ONE true turn radius to which the definition of 'pure carve turn' applies i.e when all points of a ski edge when tipped into the snow surface ( necessarily for this definition, a flat plane albeit an angled plane) travel through ONE point in the snow. That's the thinnest of tracks possible along the surface of the snow AND at any depth of the track, the full edge length must pass through it at this depth.
There is no argument from me about tightening up the turn by edging more etc. My point is though, only in ideal perfect theoretical conditions can this 'pure carved turn' actually be seen. For sure, and for all intents and purposes alot of us get the 'railing' feeling and track examinations look pretty damned good but, it's not a 'pure carved turn' of necessary perfect radius. It is though, a carved turn i'd agree - it's just not 'pure'.
Being very pedantic here. Sorry everyone, as you were. 
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Tim Heeney, Ski flex and where pressure is applied can drastically change a carve radius. If you stay neutral and centred over the ski then you will have a wider turn than if you put you mass through the ski in front of your boots and bend the nose of the ski and the remainder will follow the tighter turn as long as you can keep the tail in the track formed.
Turn radius is a mix of speed, edge angle, mass, position over the skis and skill . . . all of which are variables. If we are describing a true carve then the turn radius is defined by the track cut into the surface by the first few inches of the contact edge, the rest of the ski just rides along that track.
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Raceplate, I think the joyous feeling you describe, and which most of us just get a tantalizingly brief glimpse of, now and again, is
well worth chasing and working on. Doesn't have to mean that skiing isn't "fun" or that you have to set about it with grim determination all the time.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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pam w,
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Doesn't have to mean that skiing isn't "fun" or that you have to set about it with grim determination all the time.
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Did I suggest that 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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It might be difficult to make a pure carve on a 100mm ski. But you can ski the whole mountain in any snow.
Sometimes I look at people on their race / piste carving kit... and wonder who is having the most fun
As ever its about right tools for the job OR making a compromise.
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Last time I looked skiing was fun and it only really seems to be badge chasers who are obsessed with the perfect carve.
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No, Raceplate, it was this comment from fatbob that I was responding to. I know my limitations too well to pursue the "perfect carve" but it's worth a bit of effort to get some imperfect ones going, now and then, for the reasons you described so well.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Tim Heeney wrote: |
| I wonder and value your opinion. |
Sorry, and hope I hope you don't think this is a cop out, but I try not to get involved with theoretical discussions about the physics of skiing. It's a dynamic sport in a dynamic environment and I think that trying to explain it with reference to mathematical precision doesn't help us become better skiers. As you said, edging the ski more will tighten the turn, and provided the skier has initiated the turn cleanly that's about a pure a carve as I'm looking to see.
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Fri 25-10-13 21:17; edited 1 time in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Masque wrote: |
| If most of your terrain requires 100+mm waist skis then you will rarely need to carve them down an icy black or even spend much time 'in groomed resort' so I really don't see the purpose of the OP? |
Do you agree that one of the key skills you develop when you are learning to carve, beginning the turn by tipping the ski on to their edges rather than twisting them, is a valuable skill for all the mountain not just skiing on firm snow? If you're skiing quickly in powder or chopped up snow you don't want to twist the skis too much at the start of the turn because the consequences of 'catching an edge' will be dramatic!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Masque wrote: |
| . . .slow dangerous nightmare in lunchtime slush. |
Why were they difficult to ski in slushy snow?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Arno wrote: |
I think I can carve pretty much anything (with sidecut) in the right conditions, but the range of conditions in which I can carve clearly reduces or increases depending on what sort of ski I am on.
This has been done to death before, but I don't think anyone really means that fat skis carve as well as dedicated piste carvers. They often say they carve "surprisingly well", which is fair enough but such a subjective statement that it's not really worth getting in an argument about |
This.
My 97mm Nordicas actually carver really really well, even on wind-scoured hardpack if you're aggressive/committed enough. Took a while to get used to them/trust them in those conditions though.
I can carve my 118mm Moments properly on nice snow. Forget it on real hardpack, though unless it's really horrible ice, they ski pistes much better than most would think. I skied with Markymark29 a few times last season, he has both commented on my carving with them, and laughed at me tentatively sliding them around. Very condition dependant, but in fairness they've had probably 70/80 days since the last service.
I'm 100% a 'ski mortal.'
No video, sorry.
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pam w,
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| to pursue the "perfect carve" |
I guess one of the motivations is that it's one of only two things I can think of in skiing that are objectively measured, the other being race times.
It seems to me that everything else in skiing is someone's subjective opinion of how good you are, whether that person is a world cup freestyle judge, an instructor, a trainer or just your mate. With carving, your tracks are clean or they're not, you're either carving or you're not. You might get subjective opinions as to how good you do or don't look while doing it but the output on the snow doesn't lie.
And unlike trying to get the fastest race time, carving 2 clean tracks is perfectly attainable for the average skier. Maybe that's why it gets so much attention and is viewed as an aspirational (but achievable) skill.
I don't know if fatbob's putting me in the badge-chasing category but for sure one of my motivations for doing BASI was to get a semi-objective judgment of my all-round skiing competence, that nobody can take away.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I tested my new skis - these http://www.powder7.com/Dynastar-Exclusive-Legend-Eden-Skis-158cm-New-Flat-2013/for-sale - in variable conditions (excluding very icy slopes, which weren't available at the time) and liked them a lot. Given all that has been written above, I'm very much hoping that, at 10mm wider underfoot than my current skis, they don't undermine the efforts I have been making to execute carved turns or, even more worryingly, cause me knee problems. Guess I'll have to see and perhaps hang on to my old skis for a while.
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Masque, Hi, i'm fine with any definition of carving, or tightening the carve by increasing the ski edge angle during a turn as long as generally ski tracks are left that are sharp~ish thin tracks. If, however you wish to define exactly a 'pure carved turn' then it will be exactly as the radius stated on the ski and that will be suddenly discovered by gradual tipping of the ski edge until the LEAST path of resistance is reached (i.e no lateral snow deflection - only depression due to pressure) and the NATURAL turn radius of the ski has been established/ set with the feeling of skis self turning.
However it's only a pedantic theoretical perfection situation that probably never ever ever really 100% occurs - although, i try to get close, i don't really enjoy of being on perfectly set and' locked in' 'RAIL TRACKS' that much.
All got a bit boring. Sorry all.
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rob@rar, Hi Rob, not a cop out. There's some enjoyment for me in thinking about what the 'pure' carve really means in defining the theoretical perfect situation for minimum snow displacement leading to minimum friction leading to maximum speed. If i were a high level coach perhaps i could adapt the theoretical into a novel / unusual drill to make my skier 0.01 seconds faster over 100 seconds or so. Real world result is whats important. Agreed 99.99% or more of skiers and instructors have no need to think like this at all with bigger more important issues to concur. All got a bit boring. Sorry all (again!)
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towards the end of last season I found myself happier carving (probably due to habituation) on my Mantras (96? 98?) than on my GS race (67? 68?) skis...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Raceplate, yep skiing slush like it were soft fresh snow is a great pleasure. I've found it can be tricky on regular piste skis or rentals whereas I usually find it a blast on my everyday or fatter skis. Maybe I need to add kiddie killers to my quiver. Problem is they're so damn heavy for a second pair in the bag.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Masque wrote: |
| . . .slow dangerous nightmare in lunchtime slush. |
Why were they difficult to ski in slushy snow? |
Because I was skiing them like I was still on hard piste, staying forward and driving them so as they were deeper in the snow (and suffering from some water stiction) the downhill ski enjoyed the pleasure of driving into the slush, turning hard, x'ing tips and giving me flying lessons. Staying more central fixed that but being so skinny (the skis, not the lump on them) just sank and slowed to a halt . . . So it was time to burn the quads and surf on the tails. Quite fun but with a serious Lactic Acid legacy 
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