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#Helmetsarecool

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Ok this is not meant to be a Helmet discussion thread just putting out there, an interesting piece on the effects of lids

B.A.S.I.C.S #HelmetsAreCool from HighFivesFoundation
http://vimeo.com/77008826
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
warning though, some very disturbing and distressing images
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
holidayloverxx, Yep the real world is not pretty!
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I saw this the other day and it pretty much reinforces my own thoughts.
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Quote:

an interesting piece on the effects of lids

More of a propaganda film, I'd say. Or possibly an ad for POC.
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Lizzard, +1. I don't think there is any doubt that helmets will help with a big bash, or even a number of small ones. Will I be jumping in like those guys of the top, I doubt it, will I be skiing up walls or off buildings or down rails or steps? errr no. And I certainly won't be doing 200ft jumps off of kickers. Still possible to get a decent knock on the noggin on piste but not as likely as the activities that some of those folks were getting up to.

Choices and decisions. Make your own. Educate, but don't legislate.
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Quote:


More of a propaganda film,

Yeah because the two stories in it are totally made up to suit the needs of the message. rolling eyes rolling eyes Regardless of the company involved the core message is fairly simple.
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Fattes13, I said propaganda, not fiction. Pay attention.
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Maybe helmets should be mandatory until you reach a standard set out by ski schools?

Once you have achieved it you are allowed to make a choice.

It is bad skiing that causes accidents on piste.
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Lizzard wrote:
Fattes13, I said propaganda, not fiction. Pay attention.


It could be argued, actually, that that film does the opposite.

The guy who didn't wear the helmet and had an accident recovered fully and is, essentially, back to normal.
The guy who did wear a helmet and had an accident is now living with severe brain damage, his life irreparably changed.


As for the point of "well, I won't be doing that so sod it", that film's not for you. It was mentioned in the piece that the kids getting into the sport now are wanting to do what they see the pros doing AND look the way the pros look. Maybe they won't become pro-level freeskiers/boarders, but they'll all give it a try at some point. Wearing a helmet is the sensible choice.

It also put a decent argument forward for the why you should get a new helmet every few years. The technology gets better, they become more effective at protecting you. Most people wouldn't think twice about replacing their phone after 2 or 3 years when the tech is getting better, nor would some think twice about replacing their skis. So why do we treat helmets differently?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Quote:

Maybe helmets should be mandatory

No they shouldn't.

"The only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others. His own good, either physical or moral, is not sufficient warrant."

John Stuart Mill
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Seatbelts.

Fuses.

Zebra crossings.

Crash helmets.

Thermostats.


Electric kettles.

Etc
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
I think the film would be better without a helmet manufacturer involved but lets get the information out there and let everyone make their own choices. For me one serious head injury (15 years ago in a car accident not skiing, fully recovered physically but it certainly changed me) is enough, so given on balance helmets seem to help prevent head injuries I wear one. But because I choose to, wouldn't want anyone making me!
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Lizzard, I heard what you said but propaganda implies, information of a biased or misleading nature used to promote a cause or point of view, I hardly think the information or stories in here are categorized as such.

I advocate a choice position, your noggin your choice.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
davkt wrote:
...but it certainly changed me...


If you don't mind me asking, how so?
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Filthyphil30k wrote:


It is bad skiing that causes accidents on piste.


That's right, but not necessarily your bad skiing. snowHead

The most telling comment for recreational skiers like most Snowheads was:

Bumps to the head are accumulative.

snowHead
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
NeddySkiGoon wrote:
Filthyphil30k wrote:


It is bad skiing that causes accidents on piste.


That's right, but not necessarily your bad skiing. snowHead

The most telling comment for recreational skiers like most Snowheads was:

Bumps to the head are accumulative.

snowHead


The based on that little statement we should wear a helmet all day every day.
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NeddySkiGoon, I think we mean 'cumulative' there. Clearly you have banged your head recently. Laughing

Filthyphil30k, I don't see why seatbelts or crash helmets should be compulsory either. The rest of your examples are designed to stop people (electricians, motorists etc) causing harm to other people.
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Lizzard wrote:
I don't see why seatbelts or crash helmets should be compulsory either. The rest of your examples are designed to stop people (electricians, motorists etc) causing harm to other people.
if you're expecting the NHS to put you back together after an accident is it unreasonable to require people to take some moderate safety precautions?
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rob@rar wrote:
if you're expecting the NHS to put you back together after an accident is it unreasonable to require people to take some moderate safety precautions?

The same could be said for the NHS putting people back together for alcohol-related injuries. By that argument, sobriety should be mandatory.
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Propaganda is an accusation you can throw at any health or safety related campaign. Let's face it it's not really targetted at grizzled shs cynics or the "I never fall over while I'm pootling around on my blue runs " brigade. You only have to see the crash reel stuff to see who they are trying to educate - those who aspire to that sort of stuff.

High 5s is an organisation with its heart in the right place when it comes to rehabbing serious injuries in snowsports. I really don't see the harm unless you're in Goldsmith's tinfoil hat, international helmet company conspiracy club.
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Quote:

if you're expecting the NHS to put you back together after an accident is it unreasonable to require people to take some moderate safety precautions?

Like banning skiing because it's a frivolous activity which results in a lot of expensive busted knees, for example.
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Anyone who does high altitude inverted jumps ... almost celebrated by that video's HD crash fest ... sticking their skull and prayers into a bucket ... lapping up the video's 'safety message' ... and gambling that maybe the 501st jump will be safer than the 500th ... but encouraged ever higher by the ski area's huge kickers ...

... might be infinitely better off choosing another (safer) way to enjoy skiing ... and not pandering to the commercial cocktail of jumps, helmets and 'safety videos' ... that generates (but does not actually protect from) those frightening risks in the first place.



[that message comes to you courtesy of doc, though I should emphasise that I am not a doctor and cannot therefore be trusted]
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Zero-G, Lizzard, only if you take things to absurd levels. Perfectly reasonable to mandate seat belts IMO, not reasonable to mandate non-smoking or non-drinking.
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Quote:

and not pandering to the commercial cocktail of jumps, h

Maybe some people's ideas of skiing are pushing the limits, testing themselves to the very edge, not everyone is happy skiing around on groomed pistes.
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not reasonable to mandate non-smoking

Why not?
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Lizzard, because forcing people to give up smoking is considerably more intrusive than forcing them to wear a seatbelt. It's about a reasonable balance between personal freedom and social good. Seat belts fall on a different side of the line than smoking/drinkng (and wearing ski helmets).
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Bizarre. The video is showing ugly landings off huuuge inverted aerials (the kind of thing only a tiny tiny % of snowsporters attempt) and they are talking about helmets. Of course it is better to be wearing head protection under such circumstances but the reality is that it's the unprotected neck that's in the greatest peril. In motor racing there is the Hans Device but I've not seen a snowsports equivalent - and I'm not sure how neck protection could be achieved successfully. There are flimsy neck protectors out there that clip onto back protectors but they don't look like they'd help much. POC have a habit of promoting their helmets this way - they also used the Scott McCartney crash in Kitzbuhel.
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Bode Swiller wrote:
Bizarre. The video is showing ugly landings off huuuge inverted aerials (the kind of thing only a tiny tiny % of snowsporters attempt) and they are talking about helmets. Of course it is better to be wearing head protection under such circumstances but the reality is that it's the unprotected neck that's in the greatest peril. In motor racing there is the Hans Device but I've not seen a snowsports equivalent - and I'm not sure how neck protection could be achieved successfully. There are flimsy neck protectors out there that clip onto back protectors but they don't look like they'd help much. POC have a habit of promoting their helmets this way - they also used the Scott McCartney crash in Kitzbuhel.


In off-road motorcycling there's also the Leatt brace but from my own experience, I feel as though it's getting to the stage that it restricts movement enough that it's likely to increase the change of an accident happening in the first place.

They also addressed part of the neck injury incidence in the video. One of the reasons for neck injuries is the helmet causing rotation about the first few vertebrae. With that two-skinned lid they had, it would help reduce that as well as the rotational forces within the head and brain
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Bode Swiller, I believe there are airbag collars/vests for motorbicyclists and equestrians. IIRC skinanny was working for a business involved in them.
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fatbob, I've seen the airbag collars but aren't they just storage for an airbag helmet system?
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fatbob, you remember correctly - www.safermoto.com does the airbag jackets and vests.
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Filthyphil30k wrote:
Seatbelts.

Fuses.

Zebra crossings.

Crash helmets.

Thermostats.


Electric kettles.

Etc


The only ones of those which don't meet the criteria are Seat Belts and Crash Helmets.

And there have been plenty of arguments that people should be allowed to choose in both those cases.
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fatbob, ..well said....

The film is not propaganda. It includes an interesting set of observations from POC - yes they have an interest in selling helmets and other safety gear but they are not arguing for things which are absent of research evidence. People can indeed choose not to wear a helmet. I chose to wear one. And when I came out of serious amnesia the consultant stood at the bottom of my bed and said '...this saved your life...' holding up the remains of my helmet.

POC makes body armour as well as helmets and plenty of my friends have avoided serious injury by using it. POC are the only company which make helmets which have a liner which has been explicitly designed to reduce rotational brain injury, which is a a major cause of debilitating acute injury. Few helmet manufacturers currently throw as much research at helmet design than POC. GIRO did excellent work on cycle helmets, including work on the grabbing effect of EPS helmets - hence the thin plastic layer on most cycle helmets - designed to prevent rotational injury in MTB-ing and road cycling.

Since we don't have HANS we shouldn't wear helmets? I know that's not exactly what was said, but it was implied. HANS was a huge innovation in NASCAR and F1 (indeed in karting for young ones) and has saved many lives (God rest Sid Watkins - big thanks to you Prof Sid). If we can get a device which can stop neck injury in big falls in skiing, then that would be great for those who do big air.

Of course it's vital to look at research on increased risk-taking as a result of protection - just as we need to research the psychological dimensions of exposure to avalanche risk.

Do I wear a helmet - yes. Do my kids wear a helmet - yes. Are there instances where wearing a helmet would lessen injury - yes, and we are beginning to see research which helps understand what kinds of situation these are. Are there instances where wearing a helmet would have no beneficial effect - yes. And is there research which suggests that helmets might increase the risk of injury or death - yes, with poor helmet design (high aural attenuation; designs which grab and cause rotational injury) and certain psychological adjuncts of helmet wearing involving increased risk-taking. But on balance, I wear a helmet. An orange one. The pink one stays in the chalet, but that's another story....

It's crass to say 'Danny survived without wearing a helmet' - suggests the poster knows nothing of Danny's story. The medics in his case were clear that a helmet would have played a key role in moderating his incredibly severe injury - which was a big compression injury, exactly the thing which helmets can protest against.
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valais2 wrote:
Since we don't have HANS we shouldn't wear helmets? I know that's not exactly what was said, but it was implied.
I was basically saying that if you are going to land head/neck first from a great height (probably with rotation) then the helmet alone could well be irrelevant. And, actually, it doesn't even have to be from a great height. The point is that the pros train properly for it, work up to their tricks and we're not seeing carnage. But they promote an image that is copied by people "unqualified" to be attempting the same kind of tricks. In my youf an upright 360 off a mogul was amazeballs and there wasn't much to go wrong. Now, in the pipe and the park, their ante is their spinal cord. So, until there is a snowsports equivalent of HANS, the answer isn't simply a helmet (however good), it has to be more about the training and prep for attempting inverted aerials. And even if there was a snowsports equivalent of HANS, it still has to be more about the training and prep for attempting inverted aerials. I have never heard a helmet manufacturer talk about such things because the answer always has to be... their helmet. But when the helmet is doing it's job, the trick off the 50 foot kicker has already gone wrong. There are parallel examples of this kind of marketing with avi gear.
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Bode Swiller, ...this I agree with absolutely. Especially...

The point is that the pros train properly for it, work up to their tricks and we're not seeing carnage. But they promote an image that is copied by people "unqualified" to be attempting the same kind of tricks...And even if there was a snowsports equivalent of HANS, it still has to be more about the training and prep for attempting inverted aerials.

Absolutely right.

My eight year old aspires to big air. But he gets good coaching, does loads of rotations on the trampoline and has been encouraged to work up. And he wears a top notch helmet and back protection, which he puts on just as matter of course. I was told on here that I was 'wrapping him in cotton wool'. What tosh.

Good post Bode ... very accurate stuff IMHO
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valais2, kind words merci.

Wrap him in kevlar, carbon fibre, high-tech everything I would.
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Just a reminder - for anyone lusting for 'big air', or knowing anyone who's craving for it - that Britain's most expert and trained athlete of his generation, Mike Nemesvary (who skied for the James Bond film 'A View to a Kill') ...

... was paralysed in 1985, in a trampoline accident ...

http://www.roundtheworldchallenge.com/challenge/challenge.htm
http://www.roundtheworldchallenge.com/team/mike.htm

A much-loved and important figure in skiing and life ...

https://www.facebook.com/mike.nemesvary

The charity for spinal cord victims - Back-Up Trust - that he established in 1986 ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Back-Up_Trust
http://www.backuptrust.org.uk/home
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thedrewski wrote:
It could be argued, actually, that that film does the opposite.

The guy who didn't wear the helmet and had an accident recovered fully and is, essentially, back to normal.
The guy who did wear a helmet and had an accident is now living with severe brain damage, his life irreparably changed.


You mean 'I had a minor bump and ended up in hospital for weeks when I could have walked away if I wore a helmet' and "I had a serious whack on the head and would have been dead if I hadn't been wearing a helmet" are comparable?

I think you've had a bump too many on the head yourself.
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