 Poster: A snowHead
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I did a week's off piste course in Chamonix last year and would like to try touring. I'm not especially fit at the moment but have plenty of time between now and my trip in feb to get fit. How fit do you need to be, it looks quite hard. And is it worth it. I loved the off piste last year.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Most definitely worth it if you are prepared to:-
- accept that you are going to spend a hell of a lot more time going up than coming down;
- go with an open mind and don't expect powder;
- enjoy the ascent and treat it as the fantastic wilderness experience that it is.
In terms of fitness, if you can walk up hill at a steady pace you should be ok. It's slightly tougher than fell walking (due to the weight of the skis) but not significantly so.
We love it and recommend trying it if you are even remotely interested in giving it a go. I'd recommend booking an intro couple of days to see what you think and then take it from there.
In terms of location, Chamonix is so popular that it can be busy (relatively speaking, of course, as it's never going to be like piste skiing) and the powder can be quickly tracked. Still not a bad choice though.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Jonesj, i'll be in Chamonix all winter if you fancy hooking up for a day tour or two.
Have you thought about doing a avalanche intro course? Avalanche Academy run one day foundation/progression courses, might be worth a look if it fits in with your dates.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Jonesj Ditto Bergmeister's points. I'd say go for it. Touring is fantastic - but is a completely different experience to lift-served off piste. It's like doing a different sport entirely. As Bergmeister has alluded to, you can spend 4 hours climbing for a half hour descent in poor snow - but it's still worth it!
By way of further comment, we did an intro 2 day tour in Chamonix that included a night in a refuge - commonly known as 'huts'. There are loads of guiding companies that will do take you on that sort of thing - in Chamonix and everywhere else across the Alps. We stayed in the Argentiere Hut, which is reached off the back of theGrand Montets lift system.
You should definitely consider including a hut night or two in your itinerary - the get away from it all wilderness experience is fantastic and beer will never taste as nice as it does after skinning up a few thousand feet and skiing down to spend the night in a hut  . Note that the huts are not huts at all. Some are more basic than others but, more often than not, are more akin to rustic hotels serving hearty mountain food and drink and providing beds for the night. Some are very large and will sleep over 100 - which can lead to quite a nice atmosphere in the hut on an evening.
Sleeping arrangements are generally in communal, mixed sex, dormitories (though smaller rooms are often available). We're generally so tired that it doesn't matter. Some may have the luxury of hot water and showers but others we've stayed in have had no hot water in winter. Regardless, you soon get used to hut life and returning to civilisation can be a bit of a blow....
By way of further info., in the last year we've found that the cost of a guide in Austria is much cheaper than France or booking UK-based guides. Next March, we're paying €285/day in Austria vs €350 in France and £350 in the UK. That cost can generally be split between up to five people.
Kit hire works out expensive as you need a lot of it (skis boots, skins, ski crampons plus safety kit - transceiver etc). We have our own touring boots and skis now and the Austrian company that we are using provides free transceiver, shovel, probe, harness, ice axe and crampons - which is brilliant and will save us a packet.
A few pics below to hopefully whet your appetite for a hut to hut tour :
Typical Austrian mountain hut:
Often very rustic inside:
Typical sleeping quarters - this room sleeps six:
But other rooms can sleep a few more - you'll sleep anywhere when you're tired:
A fantastic wilderness experience - you may hardly see another soul all day:
You won't always get powder....but when you do there's usually plenty to go around:
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Sun 20-10-13 11:26; edited 2 times in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Thanks, this looks absolutely fantastic. Really appreciate the pics.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Cheers Jonesj - always glad to share a few snaps  .
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Some good "snow farming" going on there. Mind you, I find it a pain since I prefer to do longer turns.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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mountainaddict, great photos!!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Jonesj
Ski touring is not off piste skiing, it is a totally different sport, it is mainly enjoying what the wilderness in winter has to offer, a journey in the mountain in the winter, skiing because one has to come down the mountain to the valley ,
90% of your day is spent walking, and more often not very good snow to ski on.
If off piste skiing is what one is looking for, I think a ski safari trip would be more suitable when emphasis is to having maximum off piste skiing and minimum up hill walk. Just a thought
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Jonesj
Ski touring is not off piste skiing, it is a totally different sport, it is mainly enjoying what the wilderness in winter has to offer, a journey in the mountain in the winter, skiing because one has to come down the mountain to the valley ,
90% of your day is spent walking, and more often not very good snow to ski on.
If off piste skiing is what one is looking for, I think a ski safari trip would be more suitable when emphasis is to having maximum off piste skiing and minimum up hill walk. Just a thought
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You know it makes sense.
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Goldfish888, Have to disagree with that; it's only one aspect of touring. Plenty of people tour precisely to find good snow and special descents. Obviously the wilderness travel aspect is always great, but not always the main objective.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Clerk999, yes, of course there are many tracking on skin with light pack a few hours to look for good snow and special decents. And back down the valley. That In my mind is off piste skiing. But if you are carrying 10/15kg pack and skinning up most of the day and sleeping high up and move on day to day for a week . Looking for good snow is the last thing on your mind . Of course, if good snow cames your way, it is a bonus. Safety is the main concern.
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Poster: A snowHead
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The Americans define backcountry skiing like this ...
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The terms backcountry and off-piste refer to where the skiing is being done, while terms like ski touring, ski mountaineering, telemark, and extreme skiing describe what type of skiing is being done. Terms for backcountry skiing exist according to how the terrain is accessed, and how close it is to services. Backcountry can include the following:
Frontcountry: off-trail within ski area boundaries where ski lifts and emergency services are close at hand.
Slackcountry: terrain outside of the ski area boundary that is accessed from a lift without having to use skins or bootpack. Usually this also includes area with access back to the lift as well. For purists, this could also include where people use a car as a shuttle.
Sidecountry: terrain outside marked ski area boundaries yet accessible via ski lift. Typically sidecountry requires the skier to hike, skin, or climb within ski area boundaries to reach or return from the sidecountry area, or both.
Backcountry: skiing in remote areas not within ski area boundaries. Ski patrol, marked ski runs, grooming, snowmaking, and ski lifts are absent.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backcountry_skiing
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Ski Safari is what I do: using lifts and short hikes (for preference perhaps an hour or two at most). I do the walking purely to get the wilderness skiing and good snow, I don't really enjoy it for itself, which you must for touring. Try a short tour first like I did (perhaps 3 days) to see if you like it, combined with Safari skiing.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I have a friend who snores very loudly and wonders if this will upset other hut users. has anyone got any advice for me? i mean him.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I guess that "touring" is not really for you if you don't also enjoy mountain walking in other seasons?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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mountainaddict, your second picture above doesn't look at all "rustic" to me - was your caption sarcastic? I had visions of a great deal more rusticity than that.
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Pic 2 looks like the Wiesbadener hut. It has showers and is at the comfier end of the spectrum.
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Don Keebles, you could take a supply of ear plugs and donate to cohabitees In September I stayed a couple of nights in Refugio Frey in Patagonia which has one big open dorm on the first floor. It was almost full to capacity with 25 - 30 sweaty tourers and the noise was incredible with every variant of piggy like grunting you can think of being blown out into the air. I would have been awake all night if it wasn't for ear plugs - an essential bit of ski touring kit.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Don Keebles, if only other hut users were as thoughtful as you. i have shared huts with some truly monumental snorers. earplugs are mandatory and if a noob doesn't bring any it is a lesson they won't forget too quickly
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i'm going to be in Chamonix early November, first time in Cham, mainly because its one of the few places with lifts open (grand montets open weekends apparently) but I don't imagine there will be a lot of piste skiing available, does anyone have any recommendations for tours at that time of the year? i'm guessing will need to go very high to get good coverage and therefore glacial terrain the only option?
would appreciate any early season tips and/or recommendations for guides.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Pam W
What? You expected even more simplicity in the huts?!
World English Dictionary
rustic (ˈrʌstɪk)
— adj
1. of, characteristic of, or living in the country; rural
2. having qualities ascribed to country life or people; simple; unsophisticated: rustic pleasures
3. crude, awkward, or uncouth
4. made of untrimmed branches: a rustic seat
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Bergmeister, it's nicer than my house!
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ractys, it's a bit tricky at that time of year. May not be enough snow to fill in the holes on a glacier or cover the rocks surrounding them. Your best bet is to make sure you have access to transport and see what people are doing on the ski rando websites. Relatively low level touring might be a better bet because often less snow is needed to make it skiable
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Although hinted at above by Goldfish888, it is worth emphasising to any wannabe tourers that skiing with a big pack is not the same as normal resort-based downhill (on or off-piste). A weight of 10-15kg in a 40 litre pack is about right if you're carrying hut-to-hut and also have stuff like glacier skiing/crevasse rescue and/or climbing gear on board. The extra weight and the higher centre of gravity change the dynamics a lot. And, of course, floating on powder is not as straightforward on those uber-lightweight touring skis with just 80mm underfoot! Great fun, though. Certainly one of the things you have to do before you die...
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Poster: A snowHead
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Skiing a plenty on the glaciers, Argentière basin has some good routes with fewer crevassed like the col d argentière. Non glacier routes like Mont de L' arpille from ravoire the other side of col de forclaz should be quickly in condition quickly.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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ractys, the Grands Montets opening is entirely snow dependant and iirc, they didn't open any thing until Dec 14 last season...
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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There are some easy day tours in Les Contamines. There are a few around chamonix where the up is half the down, the Berard above is one of these, these I like. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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it's not until you're slept in a dorm full of snorers that you really understand why they make you leave your ice axes outside.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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As for fitness you can never be to fit for the mountains, it is hard work carrying all the kit and skies around. The fitter you can get before you go, the less pain you have when your there.
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Jonesj, very much depends on when and where you go "touring" in the season as to what you'll ski and the terrain you'll access.
High up 2800m + greater the chance of cold snow etc
Last season we were pretty well touring most days through from the beginning of March through to second / third week of April.
After the substantial snow fall(s) we had down in the Southern Alps it meant we had great touring conditions (spring snow) as we moved from nigh on snow everyday to warm sunshine (hotter than the summer).
That meant early starts 08:00 and generally finishing around 13:00 with a three to four hour ascent to then time the descent as the snow transforms.
We toured a fair bit throughout the rest of the season as well, sometimes less than an hour's climb after we go off the back of the resort into a valley and then skin back up into resort.
From a safety perspective as the majority of touring we do is without a guide I prefer spring snow as it's somewhat easier to read the conditions as opposed to powder, plus I do not feel the need to wear my heavy ABS pack.
Last year I did a week long intense avalanche course run by the European Avalanche School which many professionals do / aspiring guides and the like, and even though I got my certificate what it succeeded in doing was to make me even more aware (read into that cautious), and that is why I'm very skeptical about half day / couple of hours courses and the like as I think a little bit of knowledge can in this instance be a dangerous thing - have no problem with people learning to use a transceiver etc but avalanche awareness in half a day, sorry.
We are fortunate in that living in Serre and having over the years toured with guides in the area I now know many routes and feel confident to read books and devise new routes etc plus I've joined the Club Alpine Briancon and have been out with them.
That said last season we toured in the Queyras and that was fantastic and next season we're going to what's meant to be the great new area that many guides are raving about near Mont Viso, and sorry I can't remember the name 
Over the years I've done loads of hut to hut tours, five trips to the Lyngen Alps staying on a boat and touring up from the beach. In a couple of weeks time a good mate of mine is going down to Antartica touring (arm and a leg in terms of money and hopefully not frostbite).
But for us now, the element I enjoy the most is that it's just another way of taking the dogs for a walk 
If you're interested there's a whole load more photos, routes and trip reports here
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Regarding snorers in huts the best solution I have heard was recounted to me by a Geordie mountain guide who shall remain nameless.
I have not used it myself (yet), but he swore by it:
Step 1 - pull blanket/duvet up over offending snorers head and tuck it in round the back of the mattress (very important to buy you time for step 3)
Step 2 - punch the offending snorer hard
Step 3 - get back in your bed and pretend to be fast asleep (Step 1 needs to be completed suitably well to enable this)
Result - snorer will be too paranoid to go back to sleep, hence resolving the problem.
Apparently it works very well...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Some tour descriptions in cham and elsewhere can be found here. Nice ski tours in chamonix that could suite someone with not too much experience are for example Col de Berard and Col du Tour Noir.
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FAQ
. Next up is Stubaital at the end of next March.
! We did 3 days of the Haute Route (from Verbier to Arolla) and (assuming it's the same ones) ascended the ladders after leaving the Dix Hut. The approach to the foot of the ladders was a vertical (and also scarey) wall of snow that we ascended with skis on our packs. We were roped up but were still rather glad to reach the top! Did you 
