 Poster: A snowHead
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warning: major anorak alert
Background:
In the UK (and probably lots of other places), those sceptical of the benefits of using winter tyres tend to use the argument that, ‘it's pointless - we get only a few days’ snow a year’, apparently confusing winter tyres with dedicated ‘snow’ tyres as used in seriously-snowy places like Scandinavia, and also not appreciating the benefits claimed for winter tyres in low temperatures.
The marketing blurb for winter tyres generally states something like “the compounds used in winter tyres are more effective in all road conditions whenever the temperature is < 7°C”. In addition, it’s also said that winter tyres’ tread patterns are more effective (than 'summer' tyres) in wet weather, almost regardless of temperature. You will generally see the months of November to March or April being cited as the period when the climatic conditions in the UK can reasonably be expected to be those in which winter tyres offer the better performance.
Clearly, whether the undoubted benefits (IMV) of winter tyres are worth the cost / hassle will depend largely on the climate where you live / work (though other factors such as travelling to colder climes, eg. the Alps will have an effect on the balance of the argument).
The project:
I decided to try to get some hard facts about the climate in my part of the UK - central Southern England. I found this site http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/research/dtg/weather/ which has a record of half-hourly weather data gathered in Cambridge since 1995 – not a bad sample!
From the 316,000 readings in the dataset, I ignored the incomplete years 1995 & (for obvious reasons) 2013 and extracted the daily temperatures at 7.30am & 6.00pm. I chose these times because
a) it’s when (I assume) a fair proportion of unavoidable car journeys take place and
b) I didn’t want to use extreme daily high or low temperatures (eg 2am / 2pm) as both would be misleading.
I then looked at the days when the temperature was < 8°C at either of my chosen times of day
The analysis shows:
Over the 17 years covered by the data, the temperature in Cambridge at 7.30am was < 8C on an average of 144 days per year (min 119 days in 2011, max 178 in 2010. The 6pm temperature was <8C on an average of 103 days per year (min 75 days in 1997 & 2002, max 138 in 2010)
It would seem from these figures that, on average (again!) the temperature at either 7.30am or 6pm was such that winter tyres were likely to be beneficial on at least 40% of days (144/365). In reality, that proportion is likely to be higher because:
a)I think it’s unlikely that the performance of winter tyre compounds is noticeably inferior to summer compounds at temps immediately above 7C - there is probably a temperature range in which the difference in performance is negligible (maybe 7 – 10C?).
b)The figures do not take into account those days when the weather (eg rain rather than the temperature) would have made winter tyres beneficial
The conclusion:
The data suggests that the use of winter tyres is appropriate on maybe 50% of days in my (rather low & mild) part of the UK. That figure is probably higher for large parts of the UK which experience colder / wetter weather.
/Anorak  
Here's a list of weather stations http://www.weatherstations.co.uk/aws_map.htm Some may have similar data to the one I used in Cambridge (I haven't checked). Anyone else fancy testing their data analysis skills? No, I thought not 
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Thu 3-10-13 15:27; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Yes 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Goodyear Vector 4 season tyres
These have M&S (snowflake) rating but can be left on the car all year round.
Ideal for the UK and were originally developed for the German market where people also dont want to swap tyres twice a year.
Should get 20-30K out a set, and they work a treat in the cold.
Cost about £40-80 a corner depending on wheel size.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Thu 3-10-13 14:34; edited 3 times in total
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I use all season tyres (but with the snowflake symbol) all year in the UK and for winter in the Austrian mountains. It is wet a lot in Wales and they perform better at shifting heavy water.
When it's hot and dry I'll be on the motorbike 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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The marketing blurb for winter tyres generally states something like “the compounds used in winter tyres are more effective in all road conditions whenever the temperature is < 7°C”.
Does that mean more effective in themselves, or more effective than non winter tyres at everything?
It is a bit misleading, as above 7c they are not great, and have less performance than a regular tyre. To say they are more effective below 7c implies they are better, which they are , but not better than non winter tyres. It is the addition of moisture at these low temperatures the treads start to perform due to the block design?
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Only if you want to keep moving when it is snowy. Or be able to stop when it is very cold.
Sorry - a bit flippant. The last few winters it has been worth having them for the snowy periods (and even more vitally for the days after when the snow is hardpacked and uncleared on the sideroads).
I must admit I first go them for trips to Chatel but now have both cars equipped. My Saab has two sets and we swap over sometime in the late autumn and back in the late spring. Mrs DJL's FIat Panda has winter tyres fitted all year round. It only does around 5,000 miles a year and my understanding is the rule is 4x4x4 (4 winter tyres fitted with at least 4mm tread and less than 4 years old) If we run them all year round we will probably just about wear them out in 4 years.
They really make a huge difference - I haven't fitted snow chains to my winter tyres at all as they have coped well enough without (though it has been touch and go a few times).
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^ For sure : the ideal solution is to run 2 sets of tyres (winter and summer).
However if you don't want to swap tyres every 6 months then something like a Goodyear Vector (with M&S snowflake symbol) is a much better year round compromise for the climate we get in the UK. Especially further north in Scotland (etc) where temperatures in winter are generally <8C.
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| DJL wrote: |
Sorry - a bit flippant. The last few winters it has been worth having them for the snowy periods (and even more vitally for the days after when the snow is hardpacked and uncleared on the sideroads).
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How often was that over the last few years? I think I have had 3 days a year where the roads have been snowed in, but I live in Kent.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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^ Winter Tyres are not just for snow. Think of them as cold weather tyres with much a rubber compound that gives more grip when the temp drops below 8C.
The original poster makes an interesting good point that for 144 days a year you would be better using "winter/cold weather" tyres (even as far south as Cambridge).
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Thu 3-10-13 14:45; edited 2 times in total
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Yep a few days a year for the last few years when snow has been an issue. Plus 3 trips to the Alps most winters.
The Panda needed new tyres so I just went for something that would cope come what may.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Based on reports in media, I would say they are totally useless for UK. Everything is blocked and stopped for days once you guys get 1mm of snow, so there's no need to have winter tires if you can't move anywhere anyway
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You know it makes sense.
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Red Leon, good work on the data mining, will make it easier to win this argument with my Dad (who lives near the top of a reasonably steep hill in South Wales). We have winter tyres for both our cars. Jane's keeps her winter tyres on all year round (doesn't get much mileage, mainly used for commuting a short distance to work), and I swap mine over November and April and find them invaluable, especially for the 6 weeks or so the car spends in the Alps each winter.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Yes
I'll be putting mine back on in November, wintrac extremes. They do drive better in summer than summer ones do in Winter IME
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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haven't taken them off either Audi so far, though to be honest, the front ones on my car look more like racing slicks as of right now.....
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Yes. Can't wait to change mine over to winter tyres again. It just means the ski season is getting closer!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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The question in the thread title was, I thought, answered in the thread itself. I hadn't really planned for this to be (yet) another discussion on the merits of winter tyres
I have just edited the OP to include a few bits of text which had mysteriously disappeared (cut & paste malfunction)
| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| The original poster makes an interesting good point that for 144 days a year you would be better using "winter/cold weather" tyres (even as far south as Cambridge). |
I think you may have actually read the whole of my post - well done & thanks 
| rob@rar wrote: |
| Red Leon, good work on the data mining, will make it easier to win this argument with my Dad (who lives near the top of a reasonably steep hill in South Wales). |
My pleasure - glad to be of service
| blahblahblah wrote: |
The marketing blurb for winter tyres generally states something like “the compounds used in winter tyres are more effective in all road conditions whenever the temperature is < 7°C”.
Does that mean more effective in themselves, or more effective than non winter tyres at everything? |
That's exactly what it means - more effective at everything whenever the temperature is below 7C
| blahblahblah wrote: |
| It is a bit misleading, as above 7c they are not great, and have less performance than a regular tyre |
many people do not find this to be the case and, as suggested in the opening post (now that I've added it in ), it's likely there's a temperature range (albeit maybe a narrow one) where the difference is negligible
| blahblahblah wrote: |
| To say they are more effective below 7c implies they are better, which they are , but not better than non winter tyres. It is the addition of moisture at these low temperatures the treads start to perform due to the block design? |
Don't understand this bit - sorry
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Red Leon, Interesting and at least gives me some stats when I next tell people they are a good idea.
I was a bit sceptical as to the benefits, but decided to give them a go one year and the difference was truely outstanding. In snow we could drive easily up the hill in town, which others couldn't, and in general the road holding was better.
We now run Vredestein all year, as they also claim the "if you can only afford one trye make it this one"
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They make a huge difference on my RWD car living in relatively mild southern UK. If I had a FWD or 4WD I'd probably not have bothered, but now I've tried them I'll use them in future even if I change cars.
Usually there are a few days each winter where I couldn't get out of my local untreated roads even when main roads are clear (two or three weeks in total each winter for the last few years, more like 6 weeks in 2009/10), but with winter tyres I have no problem. Handling and especially stopping are noticeably better in cold &/or wet conditions throughout the winter even when above freezing. Road noise is noticeably worse on motorways, although not a serious issue. I notice no difference with temperature changes, they worked fine at +10 or higher.
Also bear in mind that non-winter tyres wear more quickly at low temperatures than in the summer - although I only have marketing blurb to support this claim; even if summer tyres wear at a normal rate in winter you are still "saving" your summer tyres to a certain extent which means the long term cost of winter tyres is incremental at worst and a saving at best. People who switch between summer and winter tyres usually buy a spare set of wheels too of course, so this is an extra one-off cost. Oh, and the £15 to get them swapped over is another cost unless you do it yourself... must get a trolley jack...
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Thu 3-10-13 15:48; edited 1 time in total
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My dad did an advanced driving course for his European employer on a skid pan where they used their own cars. There were a number of the other drivers who still had their winter tyres on. He said the difference was astonishing and one could easily tell the difference between those with winter tyres and those without. Stopping distances and handling were far superior.
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| Quote: |
Oh, and the £15 to get them swapped over is another cost unless you do it yourself... must get a trolley jack...
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I usually manage to get at least one of the two swapovers done for free by chucking the other set in the back when it goes in for a service and getting the garage to do it. An hour on a dry weekend morning on the school car park (nice and flat and nothing getting in the way) does the other change.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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+1 for the goodyear vectors, though ours are more like £160 per corner, just ordered some more for this winter
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| DJL wrote: |
| I usually manage to get at least one of the two swapovers done for free by chucking the other set in the back when it goes in for a service and getting the garage to do it. |
That's a good idea. Mine is due for a service soon so will ask if they'll do that for free or for cheap.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I think I am right when I read somewhere that they are most effective <7 Celsius but they are more effective in summer than summer tyres are in winter (hope that makes sense!). With that in mind, my winter tyres go on around mid to late October and come of late March early April (unless severe weather seems likely for mid April.)
Not saying that I am right and all should follow; it's just what I do.
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Winter tyres are famously not very good in the wet. The EU now makes tyre manufacturers put efficiency ratings on tyres. The Goodyear Vector 4 Seasons that Haggis Trap is recommending actually are rated at E (i.e. rubbish - relatively speaking) in the wet.
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You know it makes sense.
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It depends entirely on the tyre. For example, both the Yokohama W.Drive V902B and the Hankook I'cept Evo W310 winter tyres have exactly the same wet weather rating as the likes of the Kumho Ecsta KU19 (C rating on BlackCircles). However, if you're comparing them to a Goodyear Eagle or Michelin Primacy (A rating) then yes, they are poorer.
However, how much poorer? The difference between an A and a G rating tyre in wet weather performance is 18m stopping distance from 50mph, so a guestimate would be that a C rating would means it would take roughly what, 9m to stop over an A rating tyre? It's a difference, certainly, but not one that makes the tyre dangerous to use, certainly no more dangerous than a budget summer tyre.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| blahblahblah wrote: |
| DJL wrote: |
Sorry - a bit flippant. The last few winters it has been worth having them for the snowy periods (and even more vitally for the days after when the snow is hardpacked and uncleared on the sideroads).
. |
How often was that over the last few years? I think I have had 3 days a year where the roads have been snowed in, but I live in Kent. |
Well that's in Kent. Winter 2011 I don't think my wife's car moved for the best part of a month. Yes we are a little of the beaten track and we didn't try that hard to move it as mine did have winter tyres.
New car has a very low profile 18" tyre, haven't dared price the tyres up yet.
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Poster: A snowHead
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We have snow every winter, sometimes it's just a few days here and there but for the past few winters it's been at least 2-3 weeks. When I bought my car it already had winter tyres on it and I have left them on all the time. They don't seem any different to me in summer and/or wet conditions but I love having a car that's ace in the snow. I doubt I'll ever buy summer tyres again, but I will shop around for winter tyres that have a decent wet performance rating too.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Depends on where you go.
As a ski instructor at the biggest and best ski area in the UK and having had the chance to test a few different vehicles last season with and without winter tyres I will never go without again. Looking at getting some for the new car, it's just trying to balance cost and performance.
The benefit in year round wet weather driving is also excellent.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Red Leon, When you want to go somewhere, and there's snow on the roads, you'd wish you had got winter tyres. You can drive around those daft b*stards who get stuck on the merest of incline with smugness. As regards cost................... all you need is a slo-mo shunt on ice/snow to factor in.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I've driven in Spain in the summer 38 degrees with winter tyres on no problem, not sure I'd want to be driving in the Alps in -20 degrees on snow with summer tyres.
Lots of people in Swissland just leave winter tyres on all year, and once you get under 6mm of tread you might as well wear them down to 2mm in the summer before changing them.
Unless you are doing track days or drive like you stole it all the time you are not likely to have any problem with winter tyres in the summer.
Re cost, it woks out cheaper, because a set of winter tyres (including steel rims) is less than the cost of a set of summer tyres. So there is some initial outlay, but from then on you are saving money because you are using cheaper tyres 6 months of the year.
Kel, You can hoefully get a steel rim 15/16/17" and also narrower so the rim plus winter tyre (and lower speed rated) will be a lot cheaper than the summer tyre. There should be some documentation in your handbook about wheel/tyre size combinations.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| blahblahblah wrote: |
| DJL wrote: |
Sorry - a bit flippant. The last few winters it has been worth having them for the snowy periods (and even more vitally for the days after when the snow is hardpacked and uncleared on the sideroads).
. |
How often was that over the last few years? I think I have had 3 days a year where the roads have been snowed in, but I live in Kent. |
If you read the OP properly, and understood what winter tyres are about, you would realise that the OP's point was that for a significant portion of the year winter / all season tyres offer better grip than summer tyres regardless of any snow.
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| James the Last wrote: |
| Winter tyres are famously not very good in the wet. The EU now makes tyre manufacturers put efficiency ratings on tyres. The Goodyear Vector 4 Seasons that Haggis Trap is recommending actually are rated at E (i.e. rubbish - relatively speaking) in the wet. |
Uhhhhhmmmmm ?
C-E is pretty high on a scale of A-G.
FWIW a normal "summer tyre" will perform less well in the cold. The original post presented good evidence that winter tyres are beneficial in the UK for 140+ days each year (as temp is <8C, even in Cambridge)
In an ideal world people would run "summer" and "winter" tyres (even in the UK).
However the Goodyear Vector 4 Season is a great compromise if you don't want to be swapping tyres twice a year.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Sat 5-10-13 22:10; edited 1 time in total
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| James the Last wrote: |
| Winter tyres are famously not very good in the wet. The EU now makes tyre manufacturers put efficiency ratings on tyres. The Goodyear Vector 4 Seasons that Haggis Trap is recommending actually are rated at E (i.e. rubbish - relatively speaking) in the wet. |
Uhhhhhmmmmm ?
E is pretty high on a scale of A-G.
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Not really. Four grades above it (A-D), two below (F-G).
But having said that, the grading is actually pretty well worthless.
All it measures is how long the tyre take to stop the car in a straight line, with standardised weight/speed/amount of water.
From what I have read elsewhere, that actually bears very little relationship to road holding/cornering ability, which is what most people are more interested in when actually driving in the real world.
| Quote: |
In an ideal world people would run "summer" and "winter" tyres (even in the UK).
However the Goodyear Vector 4 Season is a great compromise if you don't want to be swapping tyres twice a year. |
Agreed. The other one I have heard good things about (but not tried myself) is the Kleber Quadraxer. Another "All season" tyre with the snowflake/mountain symbol.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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^ vector 4 season is in the C->E band for wet weather ? (Depending on the tyre size).
with any all season M&S rated tyre you sacrifice some grip in the wet for improved cold weather performance.
unless you run 2 sets of "winter" and "summer" tyres then there will always be some compromise.
the stopping performance of standard summer tyres when temperature is <8C degrades shockingly.
http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Article/2012-Auto-Bild-All-Season-Tyre-Test.htm
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| alex_heney wrote: |
having said that, the grading is actually pretty well worthless. All it measures is how long the tyre take to stop the car in a straight line, with standardised weight/speed/amount of water.
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True. But the tyre industry seems remarkably unwilling to present any worthwhile performance data on its very expensive products, so consumers can only go on what legislators have forced them to supply. If the industry was really wanting to be customer-friendly, then they would agree to use some parameters which actually made sense to the average driver.
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FAQ
