@T Bar, I have been all over the Alps with both kids on the back in a backpack (not both together, just first one and then the other when he came along), from a very young age; up to and above 3000m.
I would NEVER ski with them in a backpack. EVER. FrostyTSM and all are bang on.
As for the stories of children freezing in a backpack. We have a guide friend who recounts a local incident where this did happen. Also a story from Vail.
I was not trying to impose my risk profile on anyone. I shared my opinion which I thought was the point of a forum and people are more than welcome to ignore it. I just thought it might be helpful to share a personal experience.
We are not risk averse parents either, our daughter desperately wanted to ski with us and we thought about the best way of doing it. Yes our personal choice was to decide not to use a rucksack, but actually let her ski. Thats probably just as much of a risk or certainly not a risk averse strategy. However another advantage of our approach was instead of being in a backpack she was learning (very basic) skills right from day one.
So as an update to this post, she is now nearly 6 (Feb) has about 9 weeks on the snow under her belt and is doing her Silver badge (whatever that means). Last season she skied her first reds and more importantly we had a days skiing where her cousin (who she idolizes) and her uncle and some other family members who were all in the PDS met up and skied together, we skied from Avoriaz to top of Mosettes where we all met up, had some lunch, then skied down into Switzerland and onto Les Crosets via the reds, then back up the lift and back to Avoriaz, and she did a great job and loved every minute of it. Not only that her skiing is natural, I am so jealous that she will always have the benefit of having been on ski's from so young that its like walking to her now.
Is it for everyone, no, should you force your child, no. But if they are interested and you make it fun then go for it.
On the subject of bad ski lesson experiences we are very lucky in Avoriaz where they have the Village Enfants which is a ski school and creche combined. You drop off your kid and when they are very young they control how much they want to do. If they are cold, bored or need a wee they are allowed to go inside to a playroom and they can stay in there as long as they want, the whole time they are there is they really want, its a no pressure environment. It works, maybe they ski less than with ESF etc, but they learn more and most importantly they end up loving skiing as opposed to hating it.
Caveat, the above are all my personal views and no one reading them should feel bound to emulate them or take any heed of them
G
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
valais2 wrote:
@T Bar, I have been all over the Alps with both kids on the back in a backpack (not both together, just first one and then the other when he came along), from a very young age; up to and above 3000m.
I would NEVER ski with them in a backpack. EVER. FrostyTSM and all are bang on.
As for the stories of children freezing in a backpack. We have a guide friend who recounts a local incident where this did happen. Also a story from Vail.
Mate I'm not trying to make you ski with your children in a back pack.
Each to their own , my sole point is that done sensibly it ain't that dangerous .
I remember seeing a family on the Sella Ronda, the dad (an instructor quality expert skier) had a baby strapped to his chest, the mum (very much an early intermediate) had a hold-all full of nappies strapped over her shoulders. It was Easter, sun out, no wind chill. They were coasting down a blue.
On returning to our hotel, another British couple asked if we had seen them. They were that concerned/agitated that they thought of reporting them to piste patrol.
@vjmehra, ha! I'll admit to having to ride down a short way with the smallest Sideways after he had a bit of a shutdown, but I'd not be attempting rails and stair sets
Although looking at that film, I'm pretty sure that he didn't either - the wee'un looks a bit light during the one-handed hold, and a few other bits are a suspect too
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Wow! 4 years on and now going strong!
@vjmehra, Not sure how I feel about that... but I think @Richard_Sideways has a point.
Separation makes a huge difference.
Backpacked kids are stuck to you. They will feel full forces of an impact or tomahawk. Ignoring the big park stuff the danger level of being tandem is not so different from the kid riding herself (well... maximum velocity is a lot more!)
After all it is free
After all it is free
I have often carried one of mine down steeper pitches of relatively easy runs, just carried in my arms. There is really no danger of me falling and means they can enjoy the whole mountain. I have never considered a backpack though, I would not like the idea of the being strapped to me plus I would rather they were skiing themselves as much as possible. Mine four kids all started sliding at about 2.5 years and were pretty competent by the time they were about 5, in between they struggled to control speed on steeper/firmer pitches so it an easy option to just pick them up and ski carrying them. Never had a problem or felt I was taking much of a risk. Of course you do have to be aware of what is going on around you, particularly making sure there are no blue run heroes bombing down, but frankly that is a risk whether you are carrying them or not....
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
The guy in the video is clearly a very advanced rider, but I'll admit when I saw that...to put it politely its outside my risk profile!!!
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Took my 6 yr old between my legs down a couple of steeper sections of blue that she couldn't manage. Sad to say I wasn't good enough, lost it and fell on her... twice. I was able to roll sideways so she didn't get my full body weight, but with various planks entangling, I couldn't roll fully clear. For similar reasons, I wouldn't like a backpack, can't easily separate in an accident.
The second time I was seen by a patroller, who kindly told me I shouldn't be doing that as I just wasn't good enough. Humbling but true.
Two years later I saw a mum who'd made a similar mistake - halfway down the same blue (last run down to El Tarter, it gets very chopped up at the end of the day) - and I helped her child down, I think this time I carried her rather than trying another thigh-busting snowplough.
For various reasons I put my youngsters in creche (play in the snow while I do reds) or on skis (usually still in creche), but with my level of skiing I certainly wouldn't consider a backpack.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
@vjmehra, that won't stop them being slammed by someone out of control. Mentalists, the lot of them.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Not disagreeing with you there Dr John!
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Yes, if you're doing something outside your skill set then I get it, but I don't see how the kid would be any safer being hit by someone out of control while not standing between someones legs.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
I've just seen a lady come off the slopes with a child of 15/18 months in a specialist framed backpack. It looked quite bulky, the kids body was fully protected and their legs were recessed into the sides. The mother was only about 5'6" and 9 stone, her burlier partner didn't even need to help her off with the backpack at the cafe we were in!
This was at the bottom of gondola serviced pistes which were very busy as only 6 lifts out of 48 in resort were open due to high winds.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
I saw a three year old, ( or younger) snowboarding in Madonna Last week, I so wanted to take a photo. She had her mom, also on a snowboard boarding quite close behind, but this little tot, was carving like a pro. My husband and I were wondering exactly how young the little tot had started?. Anyway I have seen people ski with children in back packs. Wouldn't be for me because I would worry I would fall, but the man I saw was an excellent skier and wasn't skiing too fast, or putting himself or his little one at any risk.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
I wonder if some are considering this from their own Point of view. If these people are locals and doing it every weekend for 3 months, maybe that makes it OK somehow?
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Does seem a bit odd to join a forum just to disagree with a three year old thread. Are you looking for lots of old threads to disagree with or are you a single issue campaigner?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Kids sliding and kids/babies in backpacks are 2 completely different topics.
I dropped a 5.8kg plate of metal on my foot the other day. It fell about 30cm.
The force was over 200kg of impact on my toe (it broke).
I'd not like to scale that up if I muck up and slide on top of a baby in a backpack.
How, @flangesax, did you arrive at 200 kg "force"? (Force is in Newtons and would be 5.8kg x 9.8 ms^2) ...
Not quite.
First the weight would accelerate under gravity during the drop.
When it hits the toe it will then decelerate very rapidly applying a very high force to the toe (how much give does a toe have to extend the period of deceleration? not much I'd say)
I'm sure I could have done the maths for you when I was younger.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Saw a guy snowboarding with a kid in a backpack in a developer once. He was doing the jumps and all sorts.
Do they do Dad Darwin awards?
After all it is free
After all it is free
under a new name wrote:
How, @flangesax, did you arrive at 200 kg "force"? (Force is in Newtons and would be 5.8kg x 9.8 ms^2) ...
you would need to work out its velocity at point of impact. Time to fall (s = ½at^2 ) and speed (v=s/t) and then momentum (p=m*v) where s=0.3 a=9.8 and m=5.8. The answer will be in kilogram meters/second.
Then you need to work out the squashyness of a toe. I don't have an equation for that.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
@olderscot, @Thornyhill, yes, you chaps are correct, it's a bit loke the fly on the windscreen question. But a 5.8kg weight does not become a 200kg mass, at least not relativistically in 30cms...
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Ski the Net with snowHeads
@under a new name, It will have a momentum of 7.03 kg-m/s when it hits the toe. What we need to do now is get a super slow mo camera and get @flangesax to repeat the experiment. Then we can count the frames, work out the exact amount of time required for the toe to decelerate the metal plate back to zero and subsequently calculate the force.
It would need to stop in roughly 0.035 seconds to give a force of 200 kg-m/s^2 or 200 Newtons. I can't wait to see the video...in the name of science of course
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Thornyhill wrote:
@under a new name, It will have a momentum of 7.03 kg/m/s when it hits the toe. What we need to do now is get a super slow mo camera and get @flangesax to repeat the experiment. Then we can count the frames, work out the exact amount of time required for the toe to decelerate the metal plate back to zero and subsequently calculate the force.
It would need to stop in roughly 0.035 seconds to give a force of 200 kg-m/s^2 or 200 Newtons. I can't wait to see the video...in the name of science of course
It would of course require an un broken toe of similar size and bone density. A toe on his other foot would be ideal for your purposes I think.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@Thornyhill, well calculated.
- and you are doubly correct in that I completely forgot to allow for the drop. f=ma is the static force required to hold (support) the weight.
I think you could approximate the squishiness of toes? But don't let theory get in the way of good old empiricism.
You wouldn't believe I had a degree in physics would you?
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
thecramps wrote:
Thornyhill wrote:
@under a new name, It will have a momentum of 7.03 kg/m/s when it hits the toe. What we need to do now is get a super slow mo camera and get @flangesax to repeat the experiment. Then we can count the frames, work out the exact amount of time required for the toe to decelerate the metal plate back to zero and subsequently calculate the force.
It would need to stop in roughly 0.035 seconds to give a force of 200 kg-m/s^2 or 200 Newtons. I can't wait to see the video...in the name of science of course
It would of course require an un broken toe of similar size and bone density. A toe on his other foot would be ideal for your purposes I think.
That does indeed seem like the only sensible option.
@under a new name, Computers and Maths for me, but you tend to forget all that stuff. When the kids started doing their GCSEs I was like a rabbit in the headlights. "Dad...what is"....insert formula here..... "OK - I know this. I have a degree in this stuff...give me a look at your text book for a second so I can check"
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
The truth is that my mate told me.... I think it was more than that.... anyhow a guestimate from here does about the same!
I've just been reliably informed that the drop of the steel plate was from 40cm and not 30cm as previously described.
I think I must now be harder than you all!!! COME ON THEN!!!
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Saw a family skiing together at Alta, dad with a kid in his backpack and both mum and dad controlling kids with reins. There were at least two more that seemed theirs. I suppose it is Mormon territory.
I was surprised he was allowed on the lifts but it seemed OK. Mind you the USA is where they took the safety bars OFF the chairs in some resorts. Go figure.
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