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What is a black run?

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
It's struck me on the longest run thread that I don't really know and don't actually really understand what people are talking about when they say they are good on reds but sometimes come unstuck on blacks.

For the wiseguys I can read a liftmap but to me a black is likely to be something that features at some part of it something that will challenge the skils more, being a steeper pitch, less frequent bashing etc. On one hand a freshly pisted black might be a cruise but one left to "develop" might be head high moguls.

In North America it's even less of a concept where black and double black are usually reserved for gradients/narrowness of natural terrain.
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fatbob wrote:
In North America it's even less of a concept where black and double black are usually reserved for gradients/narrowness of natural terrain.

And the common misconception that you have balls the size of coconuts . . .
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Quote:

when they say they are good on reds but sometimes come unstuck on blacks
It means they ski crappy large radius Z-shaped skid turns with their weight behind them and don't take any instruction.
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People get way to hung up on gradings IMO. They are only use as a general guide. Much more important is the conditions of the day. This is not always discernable until it's too late. As you say fatbob there may only be one tough section that gets a black it's grading. Last time I was out in ADH we skied La Face going down towards Vaujany. First time I went down it was lovely, snow was grippy. Went down a bit later in the day and it had iced up, some of the snow had been scraped off, and it was a real struggle.
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All runs are white ? (unless they are brown )
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The black designation is used for the toughest 20% of runs in a resort. It is highly subjective. There is not really any standardisation from one resort to the next. Black runs may be very steep (over 30 degrees) or just steep, they may be heavily bashed or left natural. What may be a blue in one resort may be a black in another. They are usually the least busy runs in the resort and, I suspect, the safest. They are often closed.
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johnE wrote:
It is highly subjective.

Quite. I'll happily ski through trees, moguls, powder, chutes, crud, rock fields, etc. Few of these things feature on European black runs, as they're regarded excessively challenging. But show me a crowded red run covered with boilerplate ice and I'm terrified. Boilerplate with no people is fine, but the combination of poor grip and other people skiing erratically scares me witless.

So, for me, red is more likely to be black than black is - if you get my drift.
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Quote:

I'll happily ski through trees, moguls, powder, chutes, crud, rock fields, etc.

Clearly you will enjoy Malgovert in Les Arcs - but it is only classed as a red.
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It's totally subjective and guide at best.

A perfect example from my experience are the two blacks in the Jungfraujoch, running from Eigergletcher to the bottom of Wixi, 27 ('oh god') and 32. As they were both pisted they really weren't that hard to ski.

I'd say an icy and moguly White Lady on Cairngorm is probably more challenging and it's a red.
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I seasoned in Val D'Isere last year, and I would use La Face as a fitness test. I.e. can I top to bottom without stopping? So I skied it quite a lot through the season.

Because we had such a good season we never really got the boilerplate conditions that are such a pain on most of the rest of the hill, but even so Face could get pretty swept at almost any time of the season. Mainly, I think, because it's the "must do" run of the Espace Killy. So there were a lot of people there who weren't really up to it, but had to do it.

Similarly the red off Solaise, M, could be really tricky as it's the main route back to the village, but ski it 1st thing and it's a pussycat.

Other runs that are it's equal in terms of steepness etc just didn't get that bad.

So I think the amount of skiers, especially skiers out of their comfort zone, on the slope has much more effect on the difficulty of the slope than the gradient.
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flaming, For sure. I'd rate the green run down into Les Deux Alpes the hardest run on the mountain due to sheer volume of traffic. Almost insane for anyone competent not to hop off the side of it and ski whatever junk is off piste to make safer progress.

Plenty of times you get to see
- red piste , nasty, slick with erratic bumps,
- outside the marker pole - just reasonable variable snow.
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I'll happily ski through trees


I always try to go around them
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At Val d'Isere, I'd say the ostensibly blue Santons is way harder than La Face. You see an awful lot of not very good skiiers caught out going down there.

Clearly the only reason it's a blue is so they can say there's a blue way down. So sometimes it's got nothing to do with the steeps or ice or grooming, and lots to do with politics or marketing.

ie I'd say - while not being in any way competent to do so - that there's not necessarily a right answer to the question.
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Layne,
Quote:

They are only use as a general guide.


Well said that man.
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northernsoulboy, it's not blue for sure, but way harder than la face...? Er, no.
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Oh, I hate Santons - I don't personally find it particularly difficult, but it's always full of people struggling in the cruddy bottleneck at the bottom, and is littered with mud and rocks and gloves and little frozen puddles of salty tears.
La Face is a fairly easy run IMO. As someone above says, the challenge is to get down without stopping, which as I get older I find harder.
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northernsoulboy wrote:
always full of people struggling in the cruddy bottleneck at the bottom, and is littered with mud and rocks and gloves and little frozen puddles of salty tears.


The mark of the true home run possibly with the addition of a GF/wife/child in a huff stomping down the side carrying skis like firewood yelling "I'm never going skiing again"
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I think that slopes on the mountain should be rated as percentages. The percentage of people stretchered off them shown on the map. I suspect some of the easier but exceptionally busy greens and blues would feature as more difficult runs, and then people would know to steer clear - just like Santons in VDI, which is much more difficult and potentially hazardous than the Face IMO.
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Mistress Panda, I asked the pisteur I went out with one morning last season which run saw the most "stretchers". He was very clear of the answer. A red slope where a fairly steep section was followed by a less steep section towards a lip, over which was a considerably steeper section. People would survive the top stretch because of the shallower run out, then would be feeling far too pleased with themselves to slow down before the lip. "Puis ils volent!"
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Quote:
What is a black run?
A steep thing, with beginners all over it.
I suspect most people get stretchered off blue runs. I certainly was Sad
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Quote:
What is a black run?
A steep thing, with beginners all over it.
I suspect most people get stretchered off blue runs. I certainly was Sad
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The Swiss Wall is a black run isn't it?


http://youtube.com/v/ANrYtUCekac
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I've skied many a blue run that was just as "difficult" as many of the blacks. I've always assumed that the black designation was down to pisting, and the attitude/speed of those skiing it. In the last couple of years I've taken the kids (usually at their insistence) down several "black" runs that they have more than coped with.
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DB,

I did that about 20 years ago. It would have been fun apart from all the people standing still all the way down. We took a couple of medium intermediates with us, and with constant coaching & encouragement we got them down without much stopping or issue (they were young and fit). If you stand at the top and look at it I'm sure it could be quite daunting. If you just get on with it then it can be enjoyable.

PS I was 20 years younger and at least 2 stone lighter at the time ... and the moguls were much bigger then (or at least they looked it, honest wink )
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DB, As the sign a few seconds into that video says, the Swiss Wall is (now) an itinerary, so no, it is not a black run (any more).
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DB, did you enjoy that? I think I would hate that run, it just looks scary and hard work. Am I missing something or am I just rubbish?
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DB, interesting video. The only time I saw the Swiss Wall (years ago, from the chairlift wink ) it had a lot less snow on; especially on the top section there were loads of rocks, which did nothing to increase my yearning to ski down!
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northernsoulboy wrote:
Oh, I hate Santons - I don't personally find it particularly difficult, but it's always full of people struggling in the cruddy bottleneck at the bottom, and is littered with mud and rocks and gloves and little frozen puddles of salty tears.
La Face is a fairly easy run IMO. As someone above says, the challenge is to get down without stopping, which as I get older I find harder.


Agree with this completely, I stumbled on 'Le face' on virtually the 1st run of the week on holiday in Tignes this year, it was nicely pisted, soft snow and a really pleasant ski from top to bottom, I didn't even realise it was black.

I hit Santons in the afternoon, sun was out, snow was soft and the piste was carnage, it took nearly an hour to pick our way down round the hundreds (thousands ?) of people littered all over it. Easily my least favorite run of the week. It's a shame, I bet it would be fantastic if it was less busy, but at least the restaurant at the bottom was very good Very Happy
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harrim51 wrote:
DB, did you enjoy that? I think I would hate that run, it just looks scary and hard work. Am I missing something or am I just rubbish?


It's not my vid - just picked it up from YouTube but I have skied it. Well not exactly skied it - it was in the very early days of my skiing and it had a lot less snow. Spent most of my time flattening moguls with my head on the way down sliding backwards. Would love to give it another go sometime.
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DB, you we lucky. I saw someone doing just that backwards head plough some years ago and there were rumoirs that he/she did not survive.

On the vid though the Wall looks in great shape. Nice snow and small bumps. Biggest problem is indeed those who really shouldn't be there and take out those below.
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under a new name, me and wife skied the Swiss Wall a few years ago. We were on the chair coming back up and watched someone put 3 turns in at the top, fall, slide down mostly backwards and head first and then stopped at the bottom. He/she did not look in great shape.
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Sunshine81 wrote:
under a new name, me and wife skied the Swiss Wall a few years ago. We were on the chair coming back up and watched someone put 3 turns in at the top, fall, slide down mostly backwards and head first and then stopped at the bottom. He/she did not look in great shape.


Did he have an orange ski jacket on?

If so it could have been me.
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DB, ha ha I don't recall. But if it was you well played for the show you put on. And congratulations for still being alive Very Happy
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If you look at that video closely, you can in the shadow that the jacket is gaping open. Good look along with the helmet cam.

I cannot see the point in choosing to do runs like that if like me you are not capable of skiing it
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Kel, I did notice that jacket but as I thought it was DB I didn't mention it. wink
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Kel, sadly, there is some appeal to having ticked that box.

Far more fun to enter from the couloirs to skier's left.
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In many resorts it only seems to mean moguls.

A lot of (groomed) blacks are not much steeper than reds the difference is usually that the pitch is sustained. If you can ski a red properly there is no reason you can't ski a black, both require you to properly finish your turns to control your speed.
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It just means that, in this specific resort, other things being equal, it is likely to be harder than the red runs. Might be pisted every day. Might not. Might be particularly steep, or not so steep but very narrow. In absolute terms, it means nothing.
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Many moons ago I was in a catered chalet in ADH and there was a fairly big group, some of which were right dickheads. They had this thing going called "black run Thursday" whereupon on said day of each ski trip they would ski as many black runs as possible. Inevitably, one of them got crocked.
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Layne wrote:
Many moons ago I was in a catered chalet in ADH and there was a fairly big group, some of which were right dickheads. They had this thing going called "black run Thursday" whereupon on said day of each ski trip they would ski as many black runs as possible. Inevitably, one of them got crocked.



We have renamed it to black Friday now.
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