 Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
In 27 years of skiing / about 70 weeks on skis,
I have had zero injuries that would have been prevented by a helmet
I have seen one minor injury that might have been prevented by a helmet
I have never met anyone that has had life changing head injury, neck injury, yes.
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I have seen two major car smashes on my way to go skiing where occupants may have had greater protection had they been wearing lids,
OOh page 8
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Maybe?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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In fact yes!
Goes off to start another helmet related thread.....
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| tangowaggon wrote: |
Your'e an accident prone bunch you lot!, if it's not you that's had your life saved by a helmet, had a head injury then you have seen / know someone that's come to greif!.
In 27 years of skiing / about 70 weeks on skis,
I have had zero injuries that would have been prevented by a helmet
I have seen one minor injury that might have been prevented by a helmet
I have never met anyone that has had life changing head injury, neck injury, yes.
I fancied the early season offpiste bash but you lot are too risky to be around!!! 
Are we on page 8 yet? |
Yeah, well, I've never been in an avalanche but I still carry all the gear.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| PJSki wrote: |
| tangowaggon wrote: |
Your'e an accident prone bunch you lot!, if it's not you that's had your life saved by a helmet, had a head injury then you have seen / know someone that's come to greif!.
In 27 years of skiing / about 70 weeks on skis,
I have had zero injuries that would have been prevented by a helmet
I have seen one minor injury that might have been prevented by a helmet
I have never met anyone that has had life changing head injury, neck injury, yes.
I fancied the early season offpiste bash but you lot are too risky to be around!!!
Are we on page 8 yet? |
Yeah, well, I've never been in an avalanche but I still carry all the gear. |
Noone's ever had an accident that could cause a head injury that could be prevented by a helmet, until they do... at which point, will you be wearing a helmet or not?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Given the title of this thread (which I didn't write - it's a quote) I'm surprised no one yet has asked "Should I replace my helmet every 2 winters, or every 3 winters?"
My response to that question would be "Possibly consider switching to a beanie or bobble hat, as your technique and risk of falling declines".
Alternatively, for someone who is unhappy with that answer: "A person from the helmet industry has cunningly given you what's known in sales as "the alternative close". You're offered the choice of 2 or 3 years, when the real answer is that you don't have to change your helmet for 5 years. Sucker."
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| feef wrote: |
| PJSki wrote: |
| tangowaggon wrote: |
Your'e an accident prone bunch you lot!, if it's not you that's had your life saved by a helmet, had a head injury then you have seen / know someone that's come to greif!.
In 27 years of skiing / about 70 weeks on skis,
I have had zero injuries that would have been prevented by a helmet
I have seen one minor injury that might have been prevented by a helmet
I have never met anyone that has had life changing head injury, neck injury, yes.
I fancied the early season offpiste bash but you lot are too risky to be around!!!
Are we on page 8 yet? |
Yeah, well, I've never been in an avalanche but I still carry all the gear. |
Noone's ever had an accident that could cause a head injury that could be prevented by a helmet, until they do... at which point, will you be wearing a helmet or not? |
I will wear a helmet for motorsports, motorcycling, climbing, skiing, MT biking/cycling. I will not wear a helmet for having a sh@t, reading a book, walking/the dog or going into any area where there isn't a general risk from falling objects, like there would be on a building site, for example.
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| PJSki wrote: |
| I will not wear a helmet for having a sh@t |
What about when you're writing it?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Comedy Goldsmith wrote: |
| PJSki wrote: |
| I will not wear a helmet for having a sh@t |
What about when you're writing it? |
Nazis
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
You clearly have a very low laughter threshold
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which is a very good sort of laughter threshold to have, especially if you read too many SHs threads about helmets.
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You know it makes sense.
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Can anyone point to any research/stats showing how many people did 'the right thing' and wore a helmet, then cracked their head and died anyway?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Eight pages of conjecture, anecdote, vague references to vague statistics and unsupported entrenched positions.
Does anyone have any actual data? I wear a helmet because it's so much more comfortable and practical than the alternatives, but I am genuinely curious to know whether it offers any material risk mitigation. Despite reading this thread and dozens of others like it, I've yet to encounter anything that helps to feed that curiosity.
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Poster: A snowHead
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In Whistler
Skiing through trees at speed.
Hit a hidden branch under the snow.
Diverted into the nearest tree ... at speed.
Nothing I could have done to avoid it.
Hit the tree with my head and skiis.
Destroyed an ACL and took the bark off the tree with my helmet.
Helmet saved my life.
It was the first day in 25 years skiing that I had worn a helmet.
I will never ski without one again.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Good data is hard to come by, but here is a Utah study. Clinic admission rates are around 4 per thousand days on the slopes (broadly consistent with data I've seen elsewhere), and around 5% of reported injuries were to the head - although terrain park injury rates were higher. Most snow sports participants wear helmets in Utah, so it seems reasonable to assume that a further 5% might have been spared the indignity of a clinic visit by their helmet.
So a helmet is likely to be of safety value to you about 1 day in every 2,000 days that you ski. Other statistics that I've found show a strong correlation between injury rates and age (old people are injured less), sex (women are more likely to be injured), thrill seeking (thrill seekers are less likely to be injured) and alcohol consumption (hangovers cause injury; intoxication doesn't), so old blokes who ski hard but don't drink are less likely to benefit from wearing a helmet.
My conclusion is that Comedy Goldsmith will probably hang up his beanie before it kills him. I'll carry on wearing my helmet even though the benefit is small because it's more comfortable and because I'm vain enough to hate the tiny-head-like-a-peanut look that's associated with beanies and bulky ski wear.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Jonny Jones wrote: |
My conclusion is that Comedy Goldsmith will probably hang up his beanie before it kills him. |
I certainly will. I'm done with killer beanies and am now looking for benign alternatives such as 'safety bobble hats' with flashing beacons and in-built Recco.
| FoofyNoo wrote: |
Helmet saved my life.
It was the first day in 25 years skiing that I had worn a helmet.
I will never ski without one again. |
Is there any possibility that wearing a helmet for the first time gave you a confidence boost and possibly contributed to the accident? Obviously near-impossible to answer, but this is an area that's discussed scientifically.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| FoofyNoo wrote: |
| Skiing through trees at speed. |
Well, of course you need a helmet if you're doing that. Even walking into a wooden door at home at 1mph (we've all done it) hurts like hell so imagine doing it at "speed". Over a certain speed though it makes no difference, dead is dead.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Comedy Goldsmith wrote: |
Is there any possibility that wearing a helmet for the first time gave you a confidence boost and possibly contributed to the accident? Obviously near-impossible to answer, but this is an area that's discussed scientifically. |
It was discussed scientifically in a link I posted the other day in this thread but which was conveniently ignored.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Comedy Goldsmith wrote: |
| FoofyNoo wrote: |
Helmet saved my life.
It was the first day in 25 years skiing that I had worn a helmet.
I will never ski without one again. |
Is there any possibility that wearing a helmet for the first time gave you a confidence boost and possibly contributed to the accident? Obviously near-impossible to answer, but this is an area that's discussed scientifically. |
No need to be so sceptical of FoofyNoo's anecdote and others like it. With several thousand snowHeads, most of whom ski actively, the statistics that I dredged up suggest that there could be 10 or more incidents each year when a forum member would have cause to be very grateful for their helmet. I suspect that those people are also much more likely to post in a thread on helmet use.
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Let's not forget the real reason for wearing a helmet.......they look the business don't they? I don't suit a bobble hat or beany half as much as I suit a helmet - it also makes it look like I might ski fast, they look good, keep my head warm and lets face it you can't put a SH's sticker on a beany hat!!
Of course they might also save my head one day 
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I don't think they look the business. They make the slopes look way more dangerous (viz: speedway tracks) than they did 10 years ago, and the most recent data I looked at suggested that the exponential increase in helmet sales had not reduced serious head injuries or deaths from head injuries (measured in incidents per 1000 skier days, as per the normal measures).
People's faces look friendly in regular knitted hats. In helmets, people look like dogs ... in the sense that hair and ears sort of disappear, and the facial features go all 'pudgy'. As human beings we use these little peripheral clues to identify each other.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Can you get. Helmet with built in google glasses. If you bumped into goldie, you could swerve him.
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Comedy Goldsmith, Simpson's Paradox is probably to blame for the data that you refer to but fail to cite.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Comedy Goldsmith wrote: |
| I don't think they look the business. In helmets, people look like dogs ... in the sense that hair and ears sort of disappear, and the facial features go all 'pudgy'. |
I often ski alone because I obviously have few friends but agree that they look more like the dog's business, producing an extension of my persona that confirms that I am, indeed, a helmet. I used a bright yellow one for about 200 days but it had to go because despite regular machine washings, I found myself always identifying as an 'old, crusty, smelly helmet'. Its replacement is smaller, lighter, more airy and less garish so I'm now more of a 'clean, youthful, new age helmet'.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Comedy Goldsmith wrote: |
...the most recent data ..
...In helmets, people look like dogs ... |
The data are easy enough to find, but I think most people prefer to tell everyone what to do from a position of ignorance. They're so busy defending their brains that they forget to use them, it seems.
Here's a good place to start:
https://www.nsaa.org/media/68045/NSAA-Facts-About-Skiing-Snowboarding-Safety-10-1-12.pdf
They also publish detailed injury statistics for the North American industry, but you'll have to look for them. You will note that they reference other studies, for example Shealy.
They summarize the point for you pretty clearly:
"There has been no significant reduction in fatalities over the past nine seasons even as the use of helmets overall has increased."
I can't really see how omitted variables (Simpson's) would apply here, but you'll need to demonstrate how that works once you've seen the data, if you can.
Although I'm absolutely sure you'd be safer wearing your full-face helmet to bed, I choose not to advise you to do so because I think it's insultingly obvious that this is the case, and also because the marginal effect of full-face helmet wearing in bed is probably not worth the hassle for most people.
--
Two uses I can think of for snow sport helmets, for those of us who don't do ballet on artificial structures:
(1) As containers for plants in the garden. I get a lot of helmets and have to do something with them.
(2) For old farts, in that you absolutely can't tell a competent old git from young one when wrapped in all that stuff.
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For the majority of head related incidents I doubt that anyone can really argue that a helmet is better than nothing in reducing potential injury. However it is the chance of one of these incidents that I believe is very small and overstated. I've worn one for many years on my cycle, but then when I come off my bike it really hurts, whereas luckily I have yet to hurt myself skiing....any minor injuries have come about walking on icy pavements in resort or slipping on damp toilet floors 
I did, however 'join the club' last year as:
- I was just about to go on a course that I knew would put me out of my comfort zone, on more difficult terrain, and so I'd have a bigger fall rate than I would do normally (which was true.....I went from one fall per season to one or more falls a day on the course!). As I will now be spending as much time on this sort of terrain in the future rather than sticking to the pistes it will be a keeper.
- My largely non-skiing wife was putting a little bit of pressure on me to get one - not overbearingly so - but if it means her mind is put at rest and I continue to get my weekend pass it was worth it
- I finally found a helmet that was a great fit and felt comfortable on my XL-sized head and without making me look like a belisha beacon. Others that I had tried had pinch points or just felt uncomfortable. It was pricy but it was the only one I'd tried that worked for me.
I'll readily admit that it didn't take long to forget I was wearing it, although I will miss the 'wind in the hair' feeling (I'd usually try not to even wear a beanie before if I could get away with it) and I've yet to wear it on a hot day.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
so old blokes who ski hard but don't drink are less likely to benefit from wearing a helmet.
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Thats me sorted then!
What is a beany hat?, I never wear any form of hat when skiing, ~0'c and above it's sunnies only, as it gets colder I may use goggles such that the strap keeps my ears warm or I may use a headband and sunnies, on really cold <-10'c or snowy days I pull my scarfe up over my nose and hold it in place with my goggles and as a last resort I use the hood of my jacket held in place by my goggles, it may not be stylish but I can ski better than most of those that will be criticising my appearance.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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philwig, that was an extraordinarily selective quotation of yours. Allow me to expand it to the full paragraph from the NSAA document:
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According to Dr. Shealy, who has studied ski related injuries for more than 30 years, recent research has shown that the use of helmet reduces the incidence of any head injury by
30 to 50 percent, but that the decrease in head injuries is generally limited to the less serious injuries. There has been no significant reduction in fatalities over the past nine seasons even as the use of helmets overall has increased. This trend emphasizes the importance of not increasing risk-taking behavior simply because you are wearing a helmet. Skiing and riding in control is essential in improving slope safety and reducing fatalities. |
One of the missing variables that could lead to Simpson's Paradox has been raised by Mr Goldsmith - an increase in risk taking behaviour. I can think of others - an increase in average skiing speeds, for example, due to modern ski equipment.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Jonny Jones, and grooming - increases speeds but should at the same time allow for better control. I suspect it causes more accidents though.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Ettlinger and Shealy also say this:
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| Wearing a helmet does not confer invincibility or invulnerability to the user. In fact, the use of a helmet may alter behavior adversely. Last season, 35% of fatally injured skiers and snowboarders were wearing helmets. In one survey we conducted over the same time frame, 35% of those suffering head injuries were wearing helmets while only 15% of injured skiers overall were using a helmet at the time. The use of helmets is not a panacea for head injuries in alpine winter sports. Any program which encourages the use of helmets by skiers and snowboarders, ought to stress that they are, at best, only a partial solution. In addition, all skier/rider education programs should convey the concept of a fall zone, the area through which the snowsport participant will slide following a fall. In a larger sense, we need to teach all participants how to recover from a loss of control and when recovery is inappropriate, how to make a controlled landing. |
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
| Wearing a helmet does not confer invincibility or invulnerability to the user. |
Did anyone make that suggestion? I didn't hear them. The old Straw Man logical fallacy strikes again.
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| In fact, the use of a helmet may alter behavior adversely. Last season, 35% of fatally injured skiers and snowboarders were wearing helmets. In one survey we conducted over the same time frame, 35% of those suffering head injuries were wearing helmets while only 15% of injured skiers overall were using a helmet at the time. |
Repeat after me: correlation is not causation. I think that it is at least as likely that skiers who enjoy risky activity are more inclined to wear helmets. Helmet wearing in terrain parks seems to be close to 100%, for example.
| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| Jonny Jones, and grooming - increases speeds but should at the same time allow for better control. I suspect it causes more accidents though. |
The NSAA report linked to a few posts back certainly suggests that to be true. It claims - albeit without proffering any decent statistical evidence - that ski injuries are strongly associated with skiing at a high speed near the edge of an intermediate slope. If that's true, I'm not surprised.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Helmet news, just posted on Facebook and ...
Helmets Get Smarter
http://www.inthesnow.com/news/helmets-get-smarter/
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Shred’s Mega Brain Bucket helmet also features Slytech 2nd Skin foam technology which is a protective layer that hardens on impact, adapting to the different forces and speeds of a crash.
“I can’t speak highly enough about the upgrades to the Half Brain” stays ski racer Ted “Shred” Ligety. |
Not quite clear from that story how the Half Brain relates to the Mega Brain. Can anyone help with this?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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^ the anti-helmet rant continues.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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"Helmets are cool"
The hype takes a new tack ...
http://www.rgj.com/article/20131017/LIV08/310170029/-HelmetsAreCool-High-Fives-Foundation-promotes-helmet-safety?nclick_check=1
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| Helmets’ advancement has led to dramatic improvement in protecting skiers’ and riders’ heads. |
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| “Helmets finally look cool,” said Tuscany |
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| “No one can argue the point that helmets aren’t safe,” Tuscany said |
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| The California Legislature passed a bill in 2010that made it mandatory for children 17 and younger to wear a helmet, as well as making resorts post information about the safety of helmets and releasing public reports about injury accidents. The bill was vetoed by then-Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger. |
Will they be back?
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| The #HelmetsAreCool initiative, which was designed specifically with the hashtag to promote use on social media sites Twitter, Facebook and Instagram, has had positive momentum. |
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| Comedy Goldsmith wrote: |
- Lizzard is still with us, enthusiastically pontificating, on the 7th page
- Helmets need changing every 3 pages
- Vikings wore helmets but regularly died of head injuries |
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| Roy Tuscany - President of High Fives NPO wrote: |
| On April 29, 2006 I suffered a devastating spinal cord injury while training in Mammoth Mountain, CA, rendering my lower body paralyzed immediately after the accident. After having high hopes of becoming a world class professional skier, I then had to relearn everything in my life from the ground up. A truly life-altering experience, I eventually began making great progress. With the help of strong personalities, positivity, and high fives all around me, I stepped into skis and loaded the lift at Sugar Bowl for the first time in March of 2008. The encouragement and positivity I received during my recovery inspired me to start a foundation to help others with similar experiences |
Quite clearly a dangerous radical hell-bent on curtailing YOUR PERSONAL FREEDOMS C.G., with his vendictive and vicious campaign of misinformation via a mass media marketing blitz on the Reno Gazette Journal, who are quite clearly deep in the pocket of Big Helmet.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Lizzard, according to the journal of traumatic brain injury, the inability to differentiate between faces or objects is a symptom of damage to the temporal lobes of the brain, normally caused by an blow to the side of the head, above the ears. Such a blow could be mitigated by use of a helmet.
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FAQ
