 Poster: A snowHead
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Hi All,
I'm a decent skiier but I don't really have great muscle endurance. I ski one week a year and we probably only do 200 meters at a time, stopping to have a chat before carrying on. We do about 30 miles a day like that.
Anyway... I was thinking of doing (or doing a first attempt of) the three valleys escapade which I think is about 80-100 miles in a day. I was wondering what is the best way to condition my legs for this whilst in the UK? Would lots of running and cycling do the trick?
Thanks,
mnbv
p.s. forgot to say I did the decent from the top of salaire 2 to meribel (about 2000ft drop?) in one go without stopping as a test and it took 20 minutes at about 15 miles an hour according to the gps, and my legs were killing. My technique was fine but I had to massively slow down because of the pain, so I think I just need to master the muscle training before I hit the slopes?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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mnbv,
First things first, get an instructor to check your technique, if your "in the backseat", you could be Bradley Wiggins from a stamina POV and still suffer with burning legs.
Once technique is OK, then (IMHO) cycling, gym work inc squats etc is all goodness....
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Not so sure about the general assumption in the linked thread that poor technique is the root cause of most muscle endurance issues in skiing. Poor technique will, of course, undermine your ability to keep going. But many of us like to push hard when we ski, so better technique simply means that we get to go faster and in more control for a given level of effort.
My wife and I had big endurance problems a few years back after a period of child-induced indolence. We fixed the problem completely with a decent exercise programme and can now cheerfully and agressively ski bumps, steeps and powder from first light to the start of apres. My own personal experience from a statistically valid sample size of two is that long distance running (10 miles or more) is the single most effective treatment. Unless you live in an unusually hilly area or are prepared to push yourself really hard, cycling is too lightweight an exercise: it gives you too many opportunities to take breathers on downhill sections or at junctions.
Gym work on your quads is great if you want to work on your speed (muscle strength is really important for that), but of little value in keeping you going on a long descent which could last for 10 minutes or more. For me, the transformative gym sessions were those where I worked on core muscle strength (lower back and abs) and balance - both of these can dramatically increase your efficiency when skiing by giving you the strength to keep your body well positioned, which will allow you to ski faster for longer. Having an instructor talk to you about stance is completely pointless if you're not strong enough to hold that position when things start to get messy.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Whereas bigger leg muscles will help you to maintain an out of balance position or poor technique for a few minutes more, good technique combined with good balance will allow you to cruise all day (being out of balance is also bad technique isn't it?). An instructor can asses both your technique and balance
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DB, my point was that a typical office worker on an annual skiing trip can often find themselves in a position of knowing exactly where their body should be positioned but not having the strength to put it there. That was certainly true of me 7-8 years ago. I don't know if it's true of the OP, but it's certainly a possibility.
If you only have a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. And if you only offer ski instruction, every problem looks as if it's caused by poor technique.
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Jonny Jones, the vast majority of 1 week holiday skiers have some fundamental issues which will lead to becoming tired very quickly.
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| Jonny Jones wrote: |
| DB, find themselves in a position of knowing exactly where their body should be positioned but not having the strength to put it there. |
This x100.
It goes for all sports. Look up TPI (its for golf). It looks at what you should be doing, and why your body is unable to get there, then focuses on corrective gym based exercise to enable you to position your body correctly.
A good solid gym work out built up over time will create greater endurance in your muscles. You are not tying to 'bulk up', but create strong efficient and long muscles that can create correct riding, and give longevity to the requirement - bulked up muscles require faster pumping of blood (or stronger pumping - cant think of the correct terminology) meaning that you will need better cardio. Much better to have muscles that are the correct size and shape to what you are trying to acheive.
Long story short, get some instruction and a good workout regime afterwards.
Good luck, sounds like a great goal 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Exercise worked for me and my wife. It took us from skiing in 1-2 minute bursts to happily blasting down bumps from the top to the bottom of the whole mountain without any need to even pause. And it has other benefits that extend far beyond a ski holiday.
I'm not dissing instruction or the need for good technique. But a good level of fitness is likely to dramatically increase the enjoyment that an average punter will get out of a skiing trip and it's disingenuous to suggest otherwise.
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| Quote: |
knowing exactly where their body should be positioned but not having the strength to put it there
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at high levels that's no doubt the case, but I'm not so sure about a one-week-a-year recreational skier. Just in terms of fore-aft balance it requires a good deal more strength to hold yourself up with weight in the back seat (ie hanging on your quads) than it does to stand up properly with your weight stacked on your skeleton. The moment my legs start aching (typically when conditions get more difficult, especially bad visibility) I know I've dropped my weight back.
Get technique checked - and yes, do some running and gym work as well, but if you can't ski a whole run without massively aching legs the chances are your technique needs attention.
Welcome to snowheads mnbv, let us know how you get on.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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While I woulnd't want to suggest that you shouldn't be becoming more fit, I am with DB - a fit person skiing badly will tire (mch) more quickly than a less fit person skiing well.
I mean, for many people for much of the sport you are more or less just standing up... I'd go as far as to say that on a well prepared "blue" piste and doing nothing too radical, almost anyone at almost any level of fitness with decent posture would be able to continue near-indefinitely.
Whereas someone with poor posture, in particular sitting back, will need to stop every few hundred yards with thigh burn.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Sure, an unfit lump of lard with good technique should be able to ski indefinitely on a humdrum blue run. But most of us aspire to rather more than that, which is why fitness is important. For example,I don't accept that an unfit skier could enjoy slushy afternoon bumps on a south facing slope at anything more than a snail's pace - even if the slope was notionally graded blue.
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Jonny Jones, oh, absolutely right. That's why I was so precise in my description. Even if my spelling was rubbish.
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You know it makes sense.
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| mnbv wrote: |
.................Anyway... I was thinking of doing (or doing a first attempt of) the three valleys escapade which I think is about 80-100 miles in a day.........................
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The Three Valley's Escapade is NOT intended by the organisers to be attempted in one day. You can complete it a bit at a time over a few days and still be awarded the certificate. There is no 'time taken' entry on the certificate. All Escapaders are equal!
If you do want to complete it in one day you will have to carefully work out your own best start and finish points and route, probably take no rests except on the lifts and be a competent skier with a good level of fitness.
Surely it is better to complete The Escapade within your capabilities, than to risk injury by trying to meet a target which might to be too difficult.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Jonny Jones,
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| I don't accept that an unfit skier could enjoy slushy afternoon bumps on a south facing slope at anything more than a snail's pace |
After the variety of conditions I saw last Christmas and January this "reasonable" but unfit skier would agree with that (Easter was OK though  ).
I'm getting on the cross trainer to prepare for next Christmas ASAP.
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Poster: A snowHead
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The last 2 holiday's I've been on I've had private tuition (1 on 1) from A Peak in Montgenevre (instructor called Phillipe - lovely bloke), couple of 2 hour lessons each time.
On both occasions he's been pleased with my progress - technique etc - but both times has finished each lesson say "Skiing is a sport - get fitter and you'll enjoy it far more", whilst laughing at my bright red face and me gasping for air at the bottom of a black run  !!
I'm not saying I'm technically perfect (god far far from it), but in each lesson I improved (through instruction), only to be held up by my lack of fitness. Phillipe recommended cycling, which I've been doing this summer, and am hoping that I'll be in a better physical place come January!!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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and just as an extension to my argument, the OP states,
"my legs were killing ... but I had to massively slow down because of the pain"
- on a 20 minute (from the map it looks like there's a blue option) broadly straightforward descent, I am afraid that sounds more like thigh burn due to sitting back is the problem and modest fitness gains are unlikely to help too much with that...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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An Austrian friend of mine has great technique and fantastic balance (she started skiing around 2 to 3 years of age & her family had accomodation in a ski resort). Unfortunately she also has a medical condition and suffers from reduced lung capacity. She can cruise all day on smooth blues / easy reds with very little effort. It's only once the terrain starts getting more difficult that she starts to have fitness problems. If it's piste cruising up to an easy red then good balance (train core muscles) & technique should be enough. If it's more difficult terrain than increased fitness will be better in addition (fitness doesn't replace balance / technique in skiing).
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Why don't you try it in a week first doing one area each day and enjoy it. To do the whole thing in a day needs much faster skiing without any rests. We have tried to complete it several times in a day but never succeeded usually because some of the lifts are off. It needs to be done when the area is fully open and when the lifts stay on later. We have skied 3V many times each season for over 20 years and usually do over 60 km a day, sometimes over 70 km but as I have said have never managed the whole Escapade in a day. We can ski virtually any of the runs non-stop and Mr Mogulski and I are pensioners. We rarely get thigh burn now but keep up a fairly good fitness level as we are active all the time - about to head off to Nepal trekking!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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DB, there are many aspects to fitness - I very rarely feel that skiing taxes my cardiovascular system, although I've never skied with a heart rate monitor so I might be wrong - so I'm not surprised that your Austrian friend has no trouble. Fitness problems come because the sport repeatedly requires near-identical movements which very rapidly lead to fatigue.
It's true that good balance will help enormously. But even blue runs aren't billiard-table smooth, so you need repeatedly to pull yourself back into balance every time you hit a slight degree of unevenness. If you don't have core strength, you'll be slow to regain your posture and your legs will suffer. If you don't have a good sense of balance, you won't even realise that you've been knocked out of a good stance; again, your legs will suffer.
Every time you ride out a lumpy piece of snow, your legs have to absorb the impact. If you have good upper/lower body separation, that will be much less effort. But just moving your legs up and down for several hours takes its toll if a normal day's exercise involves little more than a stroll to the water chiller.
Most of us who aren't skiing demigods are familiar with an occasional late afternoon form-crash. It happens when muscle fatigue means that you can't quickly respond what the mountain throws at you, and the resultant poor technique means that your rapidly become even more fatigued. No amount of instruction will help you then - you're simply too exhausted to ski.
As I get older, I find that I have a similar problem in the morning. My technique now is much better than it was 20 years ago, but I can no longer hurl myself down a powder or bump run at 9.00am; I have to first warm my muscles up on a couple of groomers or I simply can't move my legs fast enough to respond to the mountain. I know what I need to do, but I just can't do it.
Skiing is a sport. Fitness matters.
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| Jonny Jones wrote: |
Most of us who aren't skiing demigods are familiar with an occasional late afternoon form-crash. It happens when muscle fatigue means that you can't quickly respond what the mountain throws at you, and the resultant poor technique means that your rapidly become even more fatigued. No amount of instruction will help you then - you're simply too exhausted to ski.
Skiing is a sport. Fitness matters. |
I am not a skiing demi god, I'm probably as fit if not fitter than an average 46 year old but don't recognise the afternoon crash syndrome, even after getting thigh cramps from being off piste all day.
When I'm tired I revert to good basic technique, which, guess what, comes from good instruction.
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From my experience, technique is hugely important. My technique continues to leave much to be desired. But fitness is critical to cover the miles or do off-piste or moguls. And I agree with Jonny Jones, running is the best thing you can do. Better stilll, run on hilly terrain. I agree that exercises in the gym might be good for carvers but they don't really help endurance unless you are doing very high reps. Be careful doing high reps with any kind of weight as once you tire and your (squatting or lunging) technique goes, then you risk injuring yourself properly an this all becomes academic cos you can't ski at all.
If you can run 10 miles and can't keep up with the group its probably a technique issue
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| Quote: |
When I'm tired I revert to good basic technique, which, guess what, comes from good instruction.
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Me too, combined with slowing down and not doing anything too adventurous. If I was fitter I wouldn't have to.
I am older than you, but not by much. I imagine I'm not as fit though. I don't get out from behind my desk very often these days - too busy trying to pay off the last family skiing holiday all the time
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Jonny Jones,
Yes fitness matters but IMHO technique and balance matters more.
I started skiing at 28, have boxed since 14 so core strength wasn't an issue but skiing still knackered me out in the beginning.
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I'm firmly with those in the "technique matters much more" camp.
Beyond the first hour or so, fitness helps mainly if you've already got an ok-ish technique. Whereas a decent technique should enable one to ski most of the day at a fair pace. I know from experience (my first week with snowball's group, a good few years ago) that being younger and fitter than most in the group but skiing offpiste quite a bit worse than them absolutely killed my legs in the first two days. The second evening I couldn't get down the stairs in the hotel. These days I don't even have mild muscle pain in the evenings.
Also, I don't quite agree that you need muscles to get your body in the right position. You only need a big effort to do that if you've been holding it in the wrong position for most of the day, due to technique issues. Otherwise it's easier on the muscles to be in the right position.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Mr Marmot wrote: |
The Three Valley's Escapade is NOT intended by the organisers to be attempted in one day. You can complete it a bit at a time over a few days and still be awarded the certificate. There is no 'time taken' entry on the certificate. All Escapaders are equal!
If you do want to complete it in one day you will have to carefully work out your own best start and finish points and route, probably take no rests except on the lifts and be a competent skier with a good level of fitness.
Surely it is better to complete The Escapade within your capabilities, than to risk injury by trying to meet a target which might to be too difficult. |
Yeah, I got my certificate in January this year during my third week of skiing and I definitely consider myself the equal of those who've gained it in a day* 
It took me six days (during which we covered nearly 250 miles and had several very looong lunches) but I enjoyed every second of the trip. Doing it in a day doesn't really appeal to me and I can't see how it'd be much fun attempting it if you usually stop every 200m and have aching legs skiing down to Meribel from the top of Saulier 2. Still, each to their own, and if the OP fancies trying it I wish them luck.
*This may be a lie.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Jonny Jones, i think we are agreeing to disagree, if you know what I am getting at. I think you are quite right and I also (as a "competent recreational skier" and someone whose cardiologist (showing my age) suggested I was really quite CV fit) I too have had "leg crash".
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Rowing machine. Works your legs and arms, back snd stomach.
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You know it makes sense.
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If the OP has even a half decent level of fitness, my view is that this is a technique problem. If you are static, demonstrating a lack of dynamic movement in the way you ski, your legs will hurt. The lack of dynamism will allow lactate (or whatever is the correct term) to build up; dynamic movement will shift the lactate. I know this because this was an issue I used to have and which I fixed by updating my technique.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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It's not an either-or problem.
Assuming the OP has decent technique (who know, he might had been a former racer  ), one still needs a basic level of fitness to execute the correct technique. Depending on how unfit he is, he may still need to work on fitness to get back to the level he can ski half as efficient as he need to be.
Technique will be critical if there's a lack of it. Just look around the slope and see how many rather unfit looking people skiing with proficient technique cruising around without effort, and you'll understand brute force (and brute fitness) doesn't go very far.
The worse the snow condition, the more one needs BOTH fitness and technique.
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Poster: A snowHead
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abc, no, not an either or problem but poor technique likely as you note to show more readily than poor fitness, up to a certain level of terrain/speed demand.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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My point was, better fitness will allow the OP to execute whatever technique (assuming it's not entirely cr@p) better. And it's something he can quite easily do at home. Whilst better technique requires being on snow, which has much limited opportunity.
And whilst many who had exellent technique, learn in their younger (and fitter) days, can continue to ski effortlessly well into their unfit/frail middle-to-old age, someone who's only got so-so technique will benefit greatly with better fitness in their learning process.
So it's a abstract arguement to say which is more important, fitness vs techinque. Basically you need some level of both. The OP never came back to clarify how fit/unfit he currently is and what level of skiing he's at. It's not clear if he got the minimum level of either. We're only speculating on which is more important without enough information.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
My wife and I had big endurance problems a few years back after a period of child-induced indolence. We fixed the problem completely with a decent exercise programme and can now cheerfully and agressively ski bumps, steeps and powder from first light to the start of apres.
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You have a wife that joins you in the bumps and powder? Who else is jealous?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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PS lots of cycling and running are ideal excercises for skiing
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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tangowaggon,
I'm glad for a bit of peace & quiet
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| tangowaggon wrote: |
| You have a wife that joins you in the bumps and powder? Who else is jealous? |
tangowaggon, she has no choice. I also have three teenage boys and life would get pretty lonely for her if she weren't willing to come out to play with the men.
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| abc wrote: |
| So it's a abstract arguement to say which is more important, fitness vs techinque. Basically you need some level of both. |
Spot on.
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| tangowaggon wrote: |
| Quote: |
My wife and I had big endurance problems a few years back after a period of child-induced indolence. We fixed the problem completely with a decent exercise programme and can now cheerfully and agressively ski bumps, steeps and powder from first light to the start of apres.
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You have a wife that joins you in the bumps and powder? Who else is jealous? |
When we go down bumps, I am not sure who it ends up being harder on, me or wife
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Clearly technique is the most important thing, but I am wondering - could it be something physiological as well? I have overly tight quads and a slightly unstable pelvis and a weak core (all issues I know I have, thank pregnancy for the latter two!) Could any of those make a difference?
I suffer from thigh burn really badly but my husband does not.. and we are both at a similar level and have very regular lessons at Hemel so I'd hope an obvious technique flaw would have been mentioned by now (obviously I have flaws, but you know what I mean!) I am very prepared to accept it is technique though too, but I'm just wondering if my crappy body puts me at a disadvantage on top of that?
I have a reasonable level of fitness and I know my leg muscles in and of themselves are a lot stronger than average so the ridiculous pain in my thighs drives me batty. It doesn't happen at Hemel as Hemel is too short so the lactic acid never builds up, but it really puts a damper on proper ski trips, especially when my daughters disappear out of sight!
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Skiing is a holiday, fitness matters if you want it to.
I suspect a lot of one-week a year skiers are quite happy pootling about and stopping when they are tired for coffee, cake, beer etc.
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FAQ
