 Poster: A snowHead
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| fatbob, if a common cause of juddering comes from too much pressure which ski is likely to be more of a handful in this respect: a really sharp/grippy/narrow ski, or a fat ski with blunt edges? |
Yeah I thought about this as I was writing it and decided I'd still go with suspicion. It seems to make sense that a sharp grippy narrow ski would develop more pressure but they are also easier to get on edge earlier in the turn at the right angle and therefore it is easier to manage the pressure. With a fat blunt ski chances are you are taking longer to get it on edge and more likely to be going in late with a high angle (to compensate for the dullness of the edge).
Of course at racing speeds in the hands of an amateur the GS would still be a handful but the fat blunt ski wouldn't still be on the course.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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fatbob, I don't know for certain, but the only times I experience judder is high speed GS type turns on skis which are much closer to a GS ski than a fat ski.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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rob@rar, You probably aren't being perverse as you have a tool appropriate for the job though. How often are you skiing hard steep hard pack with fast GS turns on fat skis?
It's all a bit of a sideshow issue as I agree with you and DB on the root cause and solution and from the previous thread I can vouch that it works - don't be late, get the right edge set for the job, be smoov. Any bit of "oh sh** these aren't coming round enough I'll stomp harder or chuck on a load more edge" with sudden application is likely to generate judder.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| fatbob wrote: |
| rob@rar, You probably aren't being perverse as you have a tool appropriate for the job though. How often are you skiing hard steep hard pack with fast GS turns on fat skis? |
Never, if I can help it.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Not even as a spring warm up while stuff softens up? Your ski caddy takes care of your needs?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Personal experience (cf zammo posts passim) I get this due to overloading and lack of dynamism when I get tired. For whatever reason, if I'm not feeling full of beans, I become inflexible in my stance and experimentation tells me that if I remember to relax and flex properly the judder goes away (as does the thigh burn).
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| fatbob wrote: |
| Not even as a spring warm up while stuff softens up? Your ski caddy takes care of your needs? |
 I can't do fast GS turns on fat skis, so even if I wanted to do I wouldn't be able to manage it.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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ansta1,
Always good to have some nice photos as well as a bit of video.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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It always amazes me in these discussions when people appear to express the idea that skiing is a static and equipment based recreational non-activity . . . FFS!!!!
Everything about sliding down a mountain at more than walking speed has everything to do with your own, personal ability to cope with it! Every part of a turn is different every bloody time . . . from a driving dive on inception to a skiddy brake before initiation!
It all begins with our own tuning. The most important part of any ski related preparation is to do summat about the fat, lazy, unfit lump of lard on top of them 
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| Masque wrote: |
It always amazes me in these discussions when people appear to express the idea that skiing is a static and equipment based recreational non-activity . . . FFS!!!!
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Who on this thread has expressed that idea? Sounds like you're raging against something that hasn't been said.
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You know it makes sense.
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fatbob, These threads always first address equipment . . . condition/type/suitability, then technique . . . experience/lessons/on-line vids . . . But the reality is ALWAYS . . . the fitness of the numpty on top that determines the acquisition of skills and the ability to differentiate equipment foibles.
The best PSB admin could run is two weeks at a high altitude fat farm/gym.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Masque wrote: |
| These threads always first address equipment |
Not always.
| Masque wrote: |
| But the reality is ALWAYS . . . the fitness of the numpty on top that determines the acquisition of skills and the ability to differentiate equipment foibles.. |
Not really.
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Poster: A snowHead
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rob@rar, really? . . . elucidate.
I should add that I include mental fitness (the willingness to learn rather than the desire to slaughter) in the general term "fitness" 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Masque,
There's a guy in our office who to look at him you wouldn't think he could ski 200 metres without stopping to catch his breath. He's got such a beer belly on him.
He'd ski the pants off you and me in a race. He's an ex area-champion from some mountaineous part of Austria. He still does very well on the company ski race day (large Austrian Company with entrants from all over Austria). Yes he would be faster if he got back in shape but his skill takes him a lost further than my fitness does, and to qoute someone else "my Fitness is better than most people'S fitness 15 years my junior".
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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DB, there are always unique individuals who fall outside the bell curve. You can't hold them up as a 'standard' or use them to rebut an argument. As for me . . . the further I fall from my perch the harder the climb to see the ladder to it. You as a young whipper-snapper will have a similar POV in the not too far future
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Masque wrote: |
rob@rar, really? . . . elucidate.
I should add that I include mental fitness (the willingness to learn rather than the desire to slaughter) in the general term "fitness" |
I will almost never start with a contribution about kit (this thread is an example) and many people talk about technique so I don't think you can say discussion like this always starts by talking about equipment.
As for fitness, I don't believe it is as essential as you stated. It was only when I started working on L3 instructor exams that I felt I needed to work specifically on ski-related strength and conditioning, and I've worked hard this summer to reach a level I'm happy with going in to the winter. Not saying that fitness is a bad thing, but a lack of fitness won't hold you back from acquiring efficient technique until you get to a pretty high level of performance (for a recreational skier).
I won't disagree about a willingness to learn being important, and would add that humility about your ability is not a bad thing either.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Masque wrote: |
| The best PSB admin could run is two weeks at a high altitude fat farm/gym. |
Well there is a good gym in Tignes.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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forget the drills, lets do circuit training up and down the hill at hh... now seriously there is a thought...... doesnt exercising at lower temps have some effect on metabolism?
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| Masque wrote: |
| DB, there are always unique individuals who fall outside the bell curve. You can't hold them up as a 'standard' or use them to rebut an argument. As for me . . . the further I fall from my perch the harder the climb to see the ladder to it. You as a young whipper-snapper will have a similar POV in the not too far future |
OK he's an extreme case but he's not the only one by a long way. Quite a few Austrians are unfit but once you get a group of them on the piste it's their skill and not their fitness that sets them apart.
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DB, when did they acquire those skills? When they were young and fit within a society peer group that sees skiing as a national pastime(in relative terms) or as a late learner from a country that sees skiing as some sort of hoity-toity richman's aberration?
rob@rar illustrates my point, he spends an inordinate amount of time sliding around, his strength and balance responses are tuned to his sport yet even he admits to needing to up his game to progress. He has to recognise the disconnect between his continual skills reinforcement and that of the once or twice a year recreational skier.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Masque wrote: |
| He has to recognise the disconnect between his continual skills reinforcement and that of the once or twice a year recreational skier. |
i do recognise it. You think it should be addressed by strength and conditiong as the only way to progress. I think that strength and conditioning is not very important compared to improving technical finesse, until you get to a pretty high standard (for a recreational skier). I think I'm a pretty good example to illustrate my point.
IMO the biggest improvements in skiing once you have acquired the foundation skills are to be found in timing, subtle changes, feel for what is happening beneath your skis,. Significant improvement is not not going to come from just becoming very strong and trying to dominate your equipment and the bit of the mountain you're on at the time. Obviously the higher the level you ski at the larger are the forces which are generated. You need to be strong enough to work with those forces. You're also likely to want to access good snow, and if that involves walking for it it will fairly demanding in terms of strength and conditioning. But those are secondary compared to using your equipment effectively.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Regarding fitness and technique haven't I read on SH's, in fact I'm sure it's actually been said to me, that better technique will make me ski more efficiently and could compensate somewhat for a lack of fitness. Though of course I do concur that to have both technique and fitness would be better still. I'm sure I've also heard people say that a good skier should be able to ski any ski, so that sounds like it is down to technique again. Perhaps that all means that the order of desirability should be technique, fitness and lastly new sparkly kit!!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Megamum, spot on, IMO.
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| Quote: |
a good skier should be able to ski any ski
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my younger son is a good example - he's a very good skier and a pretty good snowboarder. He has a terrible old snowboard bought 8 years ago ex-hire from a shop in Brighton for about £40, and some skis given away by a snowhead leaving Morzine at the end of the season. He never complains about his equipment though when a family member (a weaker snowboarder, but one who likes to have all the gear) lent Nick his second-best snowboard he did comment that it was far easier to ride!
He wouldn't claim to be very fit these days, though he's young and pretty strong. He does say that a hard day's boarding is far more physically demanding - he skis for relaxation, especially if the snow is hard and off-piste not up to much. My OH loved skiing because although his physical capacity was greatly weakened by heart disease he could use lifts to get up the slopes and gravity to get down, and not have to exert much energy at all. He did struggle in bad conditions though, because if he fell, especially in deeper snow, climbing out again exhausted him.
Skiing is a great sport for older people who have a decent basic technique but are not super-jocks and want to keep doing it till they are old, as DB's video illustrates.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Masque, I'll try and boil it down to a shorter post. You wrote
| Quote: |
| But the reality is ALWAYS . . . fitness of the numpty on top that determines the acquisition of skills |
(my italics).
I fundamentally disagree with the italicised points. Even couch potatoes can become good recreational skiers.
I have hardly ever seen a recreational skier being held back in their skills development by a lack of fitness. I've seen plenty of skiers whose potential contribution of their high fitness levels to their skiing is held back by their lack of skills development.
My point is not an argument to say that improving fitness is a bad thing, just that it is not a necessary thing for people who go on ski holidays one or more times per year.
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Sun 6-10-13 21:51; edited 1 time in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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rob@rar, So . . . what you're saying is the OP just needs to get some instruction . . . ignoring his own admission that his physical abilities are restricted.
That would also imply that you had no need to raise your own physical ability to progress . . . pick which side of the fence you want to lean on
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
Not saying that fitness is a bad thing, but a lack of fitness won't hold you back from acquiring efficient technique until you get to a pretty high level of performance (for a recreational skier).
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Hm. This is surely only true beyond the point where you're fit enough to ski effectively all day, purely from the point of view of it limiting the amount of practice you can get.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Masque, you seem especially incapable of comprehension in this thread!
I'm saying that making improvements to his skills (which doesn't have to come from instruction) will make him a better skier and will probably cure his judder problem which I believe (without having seen him ski) is purely a technical issue. I am also saying that it will not be necessary for him to work on strength and conditioning in order to fix this problem. Please consider the italicised point.
As for my experience, I got to L2 instructor qualification without doing much in the way of specific strength and conditioning and I'm by no means imaginable a natural athlete and at that point had a typical office-based job. Beyond L2 the physical demands are much higher, so your overall development as a skier needs to take that into account. However, I have repeatedly said my comments are with reference to holiday skiers, the majority of whom will be skiing below that level
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| finestgreen wrote: |
| Quote: |
Not saying that fitness is a bad thing, but a lack of fitness won't hold you back from acquiring efficient technique until you get to a pretty high level of performance (for a recreational skier).
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Hm. This is surely only true beyond the point where you're fit enough to ski effectively all day, purely from the point of view of it limiting the amount of practice you can get. |
I don't think it is necessary to practice all day, every day to improve your skills. If it was, skiing wouldn't be anywhere near as much fun as it is, and only the dedicated few would do it.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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rob@rar, I'll be out of touch for 2-3 days I'll come back to this 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
| I won't change my mind and you're wrong. |
nothing like an open mind eh? (couldn't resist ) gotta go, have fun.
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Masque,
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FAQ
Dropping back into reality for a moment . . . we seem to be defined by those of us who yearn for a quiver (and mine would require a Pantechnicon to transport) and the rest who will persevere and manage on whatever we have to hand (which is where I inevitably end up 