 Poster: A snowHead
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whats all this got to do with the differences in basi levels 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Haggis_Trap, it's too early to think too hard, when do you actively unweight in bumps?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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^ leg extension is a good example of actively managing pressure control on each ski before subsequently edging them.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| ^ leg extension is a good example of actively managing pressure control on each ski before subsequently edging them. |
Before edging, or at the same time as edging? Surely your blend of PET needs to happen concurrently for anything to work effectively? An edged ski which you aren't balanced against won't turn very effectively, extension on an un-edged ski is just standing up, rotating a flat ski is just a scary drift in a straight line...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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^ exactly. I have said in almost every post from the beginning that none of the elements work solely in isolation.
however in order to be able to edge the skis you do need to manage the pressure, especially in powder.
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Fri 20-09-13 8:44; edited 3 times in total
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| Quote: |
| What has been in question are your other observations and statements. And not just by me. |
Uhhmm... So please quote which bits your getting up tight about ? |
With pleasure,
| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| ^ there are 3 ways to turn a ski (Edge, Pressure and Rotation) |
| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
BASi have published guidelines describing exactly what you are expected to do for each level.
There is very little subjectivity about the process (despite what some people like to think) |
| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
^ in deep powder it would be possible to turn using pressure.
or in a snow plough you can also turn by simply pressing down into the ground through your left or right foot.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
I would argue that in deep powder pressure is arguably the main element to be controlled.
The skis are made to turn primarily by transferring weight from one ski to the other.
i.e there is no solid piste for the skis to edge against. |
| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
FWIW you don't carve in powder, nor do you rotate the skis. |
| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
In a powder turn pressure management is more important (and occurs first in the sequence of events) |
There is a fundamental difference in our interpretation of what goes on in the sequence of a turn.
I'm not BASI certified but others who have contributed to this thread who are BASI certified have also questioned your interpretation of R, E, & P.
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^ Mike : you are getting obsessed with the sequence of the 3 steering elements.
when actually we all agree that none of the steering elements work purely in isolation.
you could argue all day about which part of the radius is the end of one turn and the start of the next.
clearly without pressure control there can be no edge or rotation (and vice-versa).
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| ^ leg extension is a good example of actively managing pressure control on each ski before subsequently edging them. |
Ah, yes, OK, but it's not "unweighting"...
Pedantry over 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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OK I am trying to follow this discussion, but I have great difficulty with pressure. I can see how the skier can alter the force on the skis, but cannot see how they alter the area of the ski to change pressure. Is it by tilting the ski and hence reducing the contact area? If it is just the force on the ski that is altered why do we not say force?
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^ "Pressure control encompasses all of the actions and effects which may be used to vary and control the pressure acting against the ski...."
i.e movements such as leg extension / flexion/ use of terrain (bump) etc.
think of it as making movements which apply more, or less, weight onto each of the skis
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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We run a clinic on managing pressure and sometimes I'll do a little quiz to see how many ways we can think the skier can change the "pressure" (ie, the action and reaction between the ski and the snow). I think the most we came up with in any one clinic was 12 different ways of change the pressure:
Increase
1. We can physically press the skis' edges against the snow
2. We can stand on one ski rather than two
3. We can ski against a terrain/snow change (the back of a bump, into deep snow)
4. We can twist the edge of the skis against the direction we are skiing in
5. We can tilt the ski on to its edge so our weight is carried by a smaller surface area
6. We can increase the pressure on the front of the ski by bending the boot forwards
7. We can tighten the turn we make by tipping the ski onto a bigger edge angle or increasing the rate of rotation
Decrease
8. We can rise up quickly or jump off the snow
9. We can ski over a terrain change so the ground falls away from us
10. We can stand equally on two skis
11. We can flex our legs to absorb pressure
12. We can increase our turn radius as we go through the turn by reducing the edge angle or rate of rotation.
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Fri 20-09-13 11:11; edited 1 time in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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To borrow the tag line from pistonheads.co.uk - Speed matters !
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
^ Mike : you are getting obsessed with the sequence of the 3 steering elements.
when actually we all agree that none of the steering elements work purely in isolation.
you could argue all day about which part of the radius is the end of one turn and the start of the next.
clearly without pressure control there can be no edge or rotation (and vice-versa). |
Been out for a walk and thought about this.
This is my understanding and interpretation of what's going on.
1. It is possible to rotate a flat ski and/or unpressured ski.
e.g. in the air when performing a 90, 180, 360 etc degree spin.
2. It is possible to leave the snow surface with 50% balance on your flat left ski and 50% balance on your flat right ski.
It is then possible to land both flat skis back on / in the snow, manage the pressures that develop, and continue letting both skis run straight down the slope.
It's possible to reduce the balance / pressure on the left ski to 0% and increase the balance / pressure on the right ski to 100% by lifting the left ski off the snow surface and letting the flat right ski continue to run straight down the slope. And vice versa.
3. But any time you want to deviate from this straight running course and make a turn you have to introduce edge.
At one end of the spectrum, a low edge angle with active leg steering will allow you to rotate the skis
At the other end of the spectrum, putting the ski on edge and allowing the radius of the ski to determine the radius of the turn will result in a pure carved turn.
I don't regard pressuring the ski as a steering element.
You obviously do.
And we will have to agree to disagree on this interpretation.
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You know it makes sense.
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^ good summary.
IMVHO applying more, or less, pressure can affect the turn radius.
therefore it is a steering element.
though fundamentally we are saying the same thing (each turn requires a blend of Edge, Rotation & Pressure).
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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rob@rar, 8 is an interesting one because you need to increase pressure (by supplying a force with your legs) to jump/rise quickly for the later decrease in pressure as gravity counteracts the momentum built up.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| meh wrote: |
| rob@rar, 8 is an interesting one because you need to increase pressure (by supplying a force with your legs) to jump/rise quickly for the later decrease in pressure as gravity counteracts the momentum built up. |
Yes, it's all in the timing (as so much else in skiing). Extreme example would be the jump turn - the momentary increase in pressure enables you to more easily rotate your skis when they are off the snow.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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^ a jump turn on steep slope is an example of pressure control being used to initiate the turn.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Haggis_Trap, you could argue it starts with edging as otherwise you wouldn't be stood on said steep slope and would have nothing to apply pressure against.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| meh wrote: |
| Haggis_Trap, you could argue it starts with edging as otherwise you wouldn't be stood on said steep slope and would have nothing to apply pressure against. |
And once we finished that argument we could start on how many angels can dance on the head of a pin 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
| you could argue it starts with edging as otherwise you wouldn't be stood on said steep slope and would have nothing to apply pressure against. |
^ too true meh : but then we are back in the argument of where each individual turn starts and ends
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Mike Pow, I don't see the skis radius determining the radius of the turn. It's ski radius in conjunction with deflection of the ski due to pressure that determines the turn surely?
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| under a new name wrote: |
| Mike Pow, I don't see the skis radius determining the radius of the turn. It's ski radius in conjunction with deflection of the ski due to pressure that determines the turn surely? |
True, pressure can make the turn radius shorter or longer. I was just trying to present a simplified, hypothetical look at the spectrum.
I think this gets to the nub of the discussion as I see it and feel it.
Edge and rotation CAUSE the skis to turn
Pressure affects the turn shape and radius and is an EFFECT of the turn
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| meh wrote: |
| rob@rar, not really, angels don't exist and physics does. |
Fair comment! But the point at which technical discussions on snowHeads get more focused on high school physics and less on real world skiing is normally the point at which I duck out.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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rob@rar, I'm one of those annoying people that likes to know why something works rather than just how to achieve what I want. 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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meh,  have fun with. I can recommend a thread called "Inner Tip Lead". You'll enjoy it...
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rob@rar, there's a nearly 30 page thread on that. 
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You know it makes sense.
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meh, 30 pages of fun, though
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| jimmer wrote: |
| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| Quote: |
| at the end of the old turn, there's no pressure |
in deep snow this doesn't happen automatically.
the pressure needs to be actively controlled on each ski for the whole turn.
as soon as you edge the skis, or rotate them, then some pressure builds up (when in powder).
which came first ? Chicken or the egg ?
hopefully we can at agree that none of the 3 elements operate in isolation ?
but they do occur in different ratios for different types of turn ?
the exact sequence can be debated... |
Which came first? The edge change, because that's the start of the turn and without it there's no pressure, or direction change. In powder a lot of the time there is very little pressure on the skis in the transition, but if you change edges the ski will still change direction. |
unweighting a ski (in moguls or powder) is a clear example where actively controlling pressure can be used as initiation before applying the edges for the next turn. indeed without unweighting you cant subsequently apply the edges or rotate the skis.
though it is dumb to get hung up on which comes "first" - because none of the steering elements work purely in isolation.
you could argue all day about which part of the radius is the end of one turn and the start of the next.
the funny thing is that everyone is saying the same thing.
i,e each turn requires all 3 steering elements. |
No-one has ever disagreed with you about each turn containing all three elements (though an argument could be made that a carved turn does not involve rotation), the thing I disagreed with you about was your statements that 'the skis are made to turn primarily from transferring weight from one to the other' and 'you can't carve in powder'.
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Poster: A snowHead
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^ Yip, and I already replied that you need pressure control in order to be able to edge and rotate the skis in powder.
We both agree you cant ski powder just by rolling the skis onto their edge as you might do on a piste.
| jimmer wrote: |
| I was more requesting clarification about how you could start a turn using solely pressure management.. |
A jump turn on steep slope is arguably just that
Mike Pow hits that nail on head by asking if pressure is a steering element.
I have made my claim that is one of 3 steering elements.
For the simple reason that pressure can be used to alter the turn radius.
FWIW I do concede that you can 'carve in powder'.
However the skis are in the snow, rather than running on their edges on a hardpacked piste (thus requiring very different use of the steering elements).
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
^ Yip, and I already replied that you need pressure control in order to be able to edge and rotate the skis in powder.
We both agree you cant ski powder just by rolling the skis onto their edge as you might do on a piste.
| jimmer wrote: |
| I was more requesting clarification about how you could start a turn using solely pressure management.. |
A jump turn on steep slope is arguably just that
Mike Pow hits that nail on head by asking if pressure is a steering element.
I have made my claim that is one of 3 steering elements.
For the simple reason that pressure can be used to alter the turn radius. |
1, No, we don't agree on that, you can definitely ski powder just by rolling the skis onto their edge, exactly the same as skiing on a piste.
2. No, a jump turn isn't solely using pressure management, there's also quite a massive amount of rotation involved, without that, it's just a jump.
3. Pressure can be used to alter the turn radius, but only if you have tipped the ski over, as that is the only way to increase pressure (beyond your bodyweight) on the ski.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| jimmer wrote: |
1, No, we don't agree on that, you can definitely ski powder just by rolling the skis onto their edge, exactly the same as skiing on a piste.
2. No, a jump turn isn't solely using pressure management, there's also quite a massive amount of rotation involved, without that, it's just a jump.
3. Pressure can be used to alter the turn radius, but only if you have tipped the ski over, as that is the only way to increase pressure (beyond your bodyweight) on the ski. |
1. No, you clearly need some pressure control + rotation in both scenarios. When powder skiing the pressure control becomes harder to manage. It is clearly not "exactly the same".
2. I never said that. I said you can "initiate a jump turn primarily using pressure control". rotation and edge control are still required (as with any turn).
3. Correct. The steering elements never operate in isolation. Pressure is mainly controlled by leg flexing / extensions.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| jimmer wrote: |
1, No, we don't agree on that, you can definitely ski powder just by rolling the skis onto their edge, exactly the same as skiing on a piste.
2. No, a jump turn isn't solely using pressure management, there's also quite a massive amount of rotation involved, without that, it's just a jump.
3. Pressure can be used to alter the turn radius, but only if you have tipped the ski over, as that is the only way to increase pressure (beyond your bodyweight) on the ski. |
1. No, you clearly need some pressure control + rotation in both scenarios. When powder skiing the pressure control becomes harder to manage. It is clearly not "exactly the same".
2. I never said that. I said you can "initiate a jump turn primarily using pressure control". rotation and edge control are still required (as with any turn).
3. Correct. The steering elements never operate in isolation. Pressure is mainly controlled by leg flexing / extensions. |
You asserted that you can turn in powder using primarily pressure, you can't, it's not that different to skiing on piste, is there extra pressure? No, so why would it be different?
As the diagram you posted shows, as you get to level 4 you use more edge, less everything else, everywhere, not just on piste.
Also, you appear to live in Scotland, do they have powder in Scotland!?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
^ Jeeez : will you stop please putting words in my mouth and repeating yourself.
In just about every single post I have repeatedly said the same thing - each turn requires all 3 steering elements
Seems you can't grasp that as you keep making the same dumb points.
| Quote: |
| Also, you appear to live in Scotland, do they have powder in Scotland!? |
nah - only small rainy mountains (like the one below)
it always suck and there is no snow.
it is permanently grim up north, there are no jobs and we are all on benefits and drink irn bru.
so sometime we go to the alps
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If you read back, you definitely said that, just like you said you can't carve in powder. Whatever though, think what you want, I've finished lunch now, so am going to ski the bit of fresh that fell last night.
Never said the mountains in Scotland were small, just implied that they certainly get dramatically less snow than the mountains I ski, so maybe I might know more about skiing powder than you.
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| Quote: |
| it's not that different to skiing on piste, is there extra pressure? No, so why would it be different? |
in a powder turn the pressure control needs to be more active as snow builds up under both skis during the turn.
on a piste the skis push against a fairly uniform hard packed surface.
so yes, it is different if you consider the blend of steering elements and pressure control required.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Fri 20-09-13 17:10; edited 2 times in total
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| jimmer wrote: |
| Never said the mountains in Scotland were small, just implied that they certainly get dramatically less snow than the mountains I ski, so maybe I might know more about skiing powder than you. |
Hilarious.
Put your cock away.
Your only argument seems to be
1. put words in my mouth (missing out the bit about all 3 steering elements being required in each turn)
OR
2. point out that you live in Chile / Japan so you must be right (so what? no one cares)
Q. How do you become a millionaire teaching skiing ?
A. Start as a billionaire
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Or do what Warren Smith has done
Great pic.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| jimmer wrote: |
| Never said the mountains in Scotland were small, just implied that they certainly get dramatically less snow than the mountains I ski, so maybe I might know more about skiing powder than you. |
Hilarious.
Put your cock away.
Your only argument seems to be
1. put words in my mouth (missing out the bit about all 3 steering elements being required in each turn)
OR
2. point out that you live in Chile / Japan so you must be right (so what? no one cares)
Q. How do you become a millionaire teaching skiing ?
A. Start as a billionaire |
Hoho, I think the root of our differences is that I don't see pressure as the same as edging and steering, you can make an almost pure steered turn - pivot slip, or a pure carved turn - railroad track, but you can't make a pure pressured turn.
I never put words in your mouth, you can bleat on about all 3 elements as much as you like, but it's quite clear that in some turns one will be dominant, and the more edge angle/more speed, the better the turn.
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FAQ
