 Poster: A snowHead
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Hi
I tried AT last season and have decided to go for it and buy my own kit. Trouble is I don't know if the skis I want are appropriate (the sales guy said they were...) and also what bindings to go for. I was thinking K2 KungFujas 12/13 as I demod them downhill and found them flatering, and they seemed ok weight wise.
I was then going to put marker bindings on them, as I used them and they seemed good, but I don't know what ones to go for? I am about 95kg without kit, and the skis are quite wide, so would I require dukes, or is this overkill?
I also need to figure out what to mount the binding, is there a preference for AT? I find I like to be slightly forward normally to help my turning.
For a bit more info, I would say I'm just into the advanced skier catagory and use about 7.5 din. I live near the Cairngorms in Scotland and this is where I will be using them, so that will limit the high gain.
Ian
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Ian welcome to snowheads. Your post sums up the dilemma for the ski tourer, downhill performance v up hill performance. Another issue is who will you be doing this stuff with and what kit will they be on. The set up you suggest would be heavy on the up, and suitable only for short accents say an hour or so and limited to 500-600m but with excellent downhill performance and also good as a downhill only set up. Also if your mates are on lighter kit you will be playing catch up all the way up which is demoralising.
If you are serious about skiing up hill then maybe look at the marker f10/12 binding or Fritchi, and lighter skis maybe in the movement range but there are plenty around, a target weight of 1500g give or take.
If you really get into it you will want to go even lighter with dynafit and skis around 1350g. In Scotland you won't be skiing deep powder often so no need to go too fat, and soft skis will suck on wind blown ice.
On the mounting, most stick with the suggested line on the ski, but anything from centre for park rats, to 9cm for powder hounds, so 6/7 is about right, but stick to manufacturers guidance if you don't know better from experience.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Whatever you go for Dukes are overkill for any except cliff huckers - the lighter Barons will be fine for the most downhill friendly end of the market. That's what I have now and they are just a tiny shade more stable and less likely to pre-release than my old Fritschi Freerides, but I think I may go back to the slightly lighter Fritschis next time. I find the fact you have to take off your skis to change between skinning and downhill modes with the Markers occasionally irking (and they are slightly harder to do up) and a bit harder to stamp into on a steep slope if you lose a ski. Also on mine now it is very hard to change between heel-raise and normal mode using a ski stick like I used to do with the Fritschis - I have to squat down and do it by hand.
I must say climbing up a long steep gully in Scotland this Spring with skis on my back pack I found my set up extremely heavy and in general during skinning last year (generally around an hour or so, but finding I am tending towards doing more and longer) I started to wonder about graduating to Dynafit and, in any case, something a bit nearer to touring boots (I currently still have my old full-on downhill boots). I agree with jbob that you need a semi-fat ski at most (like my Scott Missions) but in general beyond that your ski weight will be less important than binding weight. Just find ones you like skiing on.
Mind you, all this is coming from someone age 65 and not very fit.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Tue 17-09-13 17:45; edited 3 times in total
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eightball, I'd get into Mountain Spirit in Aviemore or Braemar Mountain Sports and speak to the guys there and fondle some skis. They rent kit so you can try things out. Skiing heavy kit because it gives a better ski experience needs to be tempered with not being knackered by the time you get to skiing downhill otherwise you'll ski poorly anyway. There is a whole heap of decent touring gear though that is light without really sacrificing much going downhill. The Cairngorms are excellent for ski touring so you'll have a blast.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Yes, mountain spirit is a good shop for touring advice (even a lowly Londoner like me has discovered that - I bought some ski-boot crampons there when I was last up).
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thanks for your replies guys
Yeah this is what I thought. I want to get up as easy as possible but I don't want to tip toe down, because its mainly about the down for me.
Interms of who I will go with, a couple of mates who already own kit but don't do it that often and mostly go up the side of a pieste. I would be looking to push it beyond this and do as much as Scotland has to offer. I already climb so would be looking to do ski moutaineering if I can find a club. Infact Snowball do you know of a good guide book with routes in Scotland in?
So when you say 1500g is that each ski, so 3kg total? Yes, this puts a dampner of things and also makes it hard to get a demo as I have never seen touring speccific skis at demo days... And Jbob, what do you mean "in the movement range"? Is it just the weight that makes them tougher on the up or is the shape important too?
And so for the binding, is a Fritschi Scout 11 a good compramise? I'm guessing its going to be easy to switch modes on, I was hoping to be able to change with the skis on.
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eightball, the best guidebook is Ski Mountaineering in Scotland but AFAIK it's out of print so getting a copy might be tricky. The website Winterhighland has a section for trip reports that people regularly update so you can get ideas from that.
Movement is a company that makes touring oriented skis.
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eightball, per ski. My touring skis are each, 1900gms with the bindings, they are dynastar altitrail powder with dynafit bindings 82mm under foot, they ski fine and are what I would use for ski mountaineering in Scotland bearing in mind you could well end up with them on your back climbing. I also have some k2 hardsides which are 3000gms with marker f12 bindings, are 98 under foot. They are good in powder and in the rough stuff but only suitable for shortish skinning and I wouldn't want to climb with them. Your k2 kungfus with Dukes would be significantly heavier, and unless your built like a tank not good on the up and hopeless for climbing. When you are away from the lifts and piste rescue, you shouldn't be going that fast anyway.
You should think about going on a course, maybe glenmoor lodge
http://www.glenmorelodge.org.uk/course-skiing-skills-index.asp
or an intro to touring in the alps. Much better to focus on the knowledge than the kit when starting out.
The eagles are a specific club for ski touring.
http://www.eagleskiclub.org.uk/
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IMO you can go heavier than you might for doing the same things in the Alps as you aren't at altitude. There was quite a contingent of people touring on heavier kit (e.g. around 2kg per ski before bindings) when I lived there.
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try contacting http://www.haggistrap.co.uk/offpiste.shtml
For further afield there is a book "ski mountaineering in Scotland" produced by the Scottish Mountaineering Club (It looks good though I have not made much use of it yet)
Edit: I notice meh says the book is out of print. I bought it 2 years ago so you might still find a copy. However it was written before the Nevis ski area was built (one route suggests climbing up from the Glen Nevis side and skiing down where the lifts are now - I rather fancy doing that in reverse but using lifts - if there is ever enough snow when I'm there).
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Tue 17-09-13 20:27; edited 4 times in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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meh, good point on the altitude.
Many years ago I had a copy of Ski Mountaineering in Scotland, but have lost it. Not living in Scotland many of the routes we regarded, just as mythical as that other top Scottish (non existent), tourist attraction, the Loch Ness Monster. 
I must admit I have given up on Scotland in favour of the alps, but there must have been lots of adventures to be had in the last few snowy years. I did always fancy doing the Cairngorm 4000s. Hmmmm.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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jbob, yeah the 4000s is a great, if long day out. Last time I did it we stopped at Corrour bothy for the night which much nicer.
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You know it makes sense.
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Cool, maybe I should head to this shop and have a look first. I just saw the kit for cheap online and thought I'd grab it before the prices rise.
Yes I was going to go on a course to learn mountain safety, but I was thinking of getting going first and familiarising myself with the sport on easy ground first.
Yeah Scotlands snow is seriously hard to predict, and sometimes doesn't happen. But living here now (I've come up from Farnham near guildford) its worth a punt as if it snows, you ski that weekend, if not you go mtbing.
This is causing me an issue as I now feel the need to buy a pair of k2 kungfus in addition...
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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eightball, a large collection of skis is a healthy thing! 
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Poster: A snowHead
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eightball, Hi
Being a lifelong climber who got into skiing around 8 years ago we have things in common. After a couple of years on piste skis and badly fitted normal boots I took the plunge and bought an Alpine Touring set up; Scott Mission skis (90 under foot), Fritschi Eagle bindings and Scarpa Denali boots ( these have all been discontinued but you will find similar counterparts). I found them great for all my skiing, piste, off piste and touring, particularly the latter due to light weight.
More recently as my off piste skiing improved I wanted skis with more surface area and stiffer, and stiffer boots too, so I bought some Whitedot Preachers with Marker F10 bindings and Black Diamond Factor boots; all fantastic fun for steep and deep stuff. They are for lift served off piste but I will be buying skins for them for the forthcoming season to access some challenging skiing.
However for long climbs and always in Scotland I will always go back to the Scarpa/Scott/Fritschi set up. Unless I've been really unlucky I don't believe I would often get the conditions in Scotland to benefit from lugging up the heavier Preachers etc. Re the bindings, I find the Fritshi heel lift adjustment on the move very useful especially for Scottish undulating terrain.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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"Ski Mountaineering in Scotland" is available second hand but for a ridiculous price (£93.93)- see Amazon.
I would be prepared to lend you mine and you could scan any or all pages.
I'm hoping to do a few days in Scotland again - perhaps not till second half of March but depends on the snow.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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If you live in the central belt area there's always the Edinburgh Ski Touring Club, http://www.estc.org.uk/ some very active skiers.
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Snowball, thanks that would be great, then I could pdf it and anyone who wants it can get a copy. How would I get it off you?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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If you fail to get it another way I suppose I could post it to you (but make sure you send it back!!!). PM me.
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eightball,
have you actually done much climbing/touring? (I'm not judging, btw, just wondering) I've been getting into it over the last couple of seasons, and have done a few weeks of basic lift served hikes, upto about 2 hours, plus some 'tuition' weeks where we used touring kit but hit the powder when we could.
snowballs' comment: I find the fact you have to take off your skis to change between skinning and downhill modes with the Markers occasionally irking (and they are slightly harder to do up) and a bit harder to stamp into on a steep slope if you lose a ski. Also on mine now it is very hard to change between heel-raise and normal mode using a ski stick like I used to do with the Fritschis - I have to squat down and do it by hand
deserves to be in bold. Maybe when you're 'expert' and know your kit well, the human factors become less important - but we found that the fundamentally less good design of the Markers was irritating in the extreme. They frequently iced up to the extent that ski removal was required to go back into d/h mode (as ice forms in the clamping tracks and the binding won't lock), and the inability to easily adjust and maintain heel height was frankly pathetic. The Fritschi's were just properly designed, and worked.
I'm considering buying touring bindings this year, and 'ease of practical use' will be the #1 factor.
if you _do_ get somewhere 'interesting', you don't want to faffing un-necessarily with kit - one of our group lost her ski as a consequence of having to remove it to sort a binding problem as described.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| hamilton wrote: |
but we found that the fundamentally less good design of the Markers was irritating in the extreme. They frequently iced up to the extent that ski removal was required to go back into d/h mode (as ice forms in the clamping tracks and the binding won't lock), and the inability to easily adjust and maintain heel height was frankly pathetic. The Fritschi's were just properly designed, and worked.
I'm considering buying touring bindings this year, and 'ease of practical use' will be the #1 factor.
if you _do_ get somewhere 'interesting', you don't want to faffing un-necessarily with kit - one of our group lost her ski as a consequence of having to remove it to sort a binding problem as described. |
I d read ( admittedly re the Marker Tour F10 and F12 ) that this had been largely addressed by redesign ( though I have n't used any of these Markers to go uphill). Thought I had seen it on the Wild snow blog.
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Maybe a little qualification is in order. If you want to tour less than you free-ski and for your binding to feel normal, go Marker - might be a little heavy for the Tours. Otherwise go fritschi, you will get used to them and appreciate the ease of use if you are touring more than free-skiing. What we will not like is going between normal bindings and Fritschi regularly. If you are in the latter category, however, it is only a matter of time and money before you go Dynafit as the weight and comfort improvement is significant.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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22 dropout, I'm going with Atomic Tracker 16s (same as the Salomon Guardians) as bindings, but they will also get a lot of use as an everyday ski. They won't take a standard touring sole though, so for longer treks I'll adjust my lightweight Dynafit boots by sticking a compatible sole on (experimenting here). Then, in the future I can also get a very lightweight touring ski with the Dyna bindings on, purely for extended tours.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I have marker f10 on K2 Hardside (about 98 under foot). Absolutely fine for up to 1/1.5 hour skinning and weight wise. I am 80 kgs, very experienced skier bu not a massive tourer and reasonably fit. No issues with binding functionality (save that the ski must be removed to switch mode). However, all comments above are valid. For Scotland your proposed set up may not be ideal. For my neck fo the woods (Grimentz/ZInal) it would be absoutely fine
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That's one of the reasons I chose the tracker over the marker. You can change modes with the ski on and they go up to 16 DIN so can take some heavy skiing. Oh.. the half price was an added incentive too 
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
You can change modes with the ski on
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I don't get why this is such a big issue. Do you also take skins off with the skis still on? I'm sure it can be done, but does anyone really do it? And as for putting skins on, that would be some trick 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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sah, putting skis back into ski mode for short descents with the skins on is one thing you can do which can be very useful on rolling terrain. Although in that situation I just ski down with my heels unlocked for the most part which leads to amusing faceplants.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| meh wrote: |
| sah, putting skis back into ski mode for short descents with the skins on is one thing you can do which can be very useful on rolling terrain. Although in that situation I just ski down with my heels unlocked for the most part which leads to amusing faceplants. |
You can have amusing faceplants just be going downhill with skins on . Locking the heels might help but it's not something I've ever bothered doing with my Freerides even though they can lock without removing the ski. I'm sure it's a nice option, but when people bring it up as an issue with the Markers I do wonder how often it really matters.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Fritschis are pointless; if you tour enough for the flimsiness/slop to be worthwhile for the better uphill performance, go dynafit, which should be better in every way. It's also inevitable that you will upgrade at some point, so you may as well start out with them. I'm getting some second hand TLT Speeds sorted out this weekend, looking forward to trying them.
Barons/Markers are great if you're skinning to ski hard on the way down. I can comfortably do 600m vert with them (on 188cm long 110mm wide skis with Cochise 120s) uphill on them, and I'm not all that fit atm. Over 800m vert and I start to struggle. Icing isn't that big an issue. Just be aware of it, and knock/rub it off before sliding binding back into ski mode. I've heard Guardians/Trackers are susceptible to ice build up whilst skinning, in such a way that it's caused parts to snap when applying weight (totally anecdotal, and in limited numbers though). Whilst it's awkward, on mellow rolling terrain I have no problem skiing down with skins on/heels unlocked.
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Tue 15-10-13 15:49; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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...... yes with your heels locked it's almost impossible to hit yourself in the head or chest with your ski tips during a fall.
Freeing your heels opens up these possibilities and lets you really do yourself some proper damage.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Quick heads-up : if anyone's after some Black Diamond Ascension 125mm skins: >Surfdome< have them in their pre-season sale for £89 as opposed to £135 RRP
Very quick despatch too - ordered Monday night and arrived today 
<edit> doh - looks like I must have got the last pair in 125mm, (though they do have other sizes) sorry </edit>
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Did someone say "up the side of the piste?"
Please, please we must all put a stop to this abomination.
I can only think of a few circumstances where this should not be the cause of undying shame, you have no mates and don't fancy the risks of solo or the route has to start off on a piste. 2nd reason is only valid for a short distance through difficult terrain.
Get the skills, or get a professional, get off the piste.
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skiingian, not really - someone said that a friend sometimes did it. Weird.
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See no shame if you are using it for training e.g. At the beginning of the season when the snow cover is poor offpiste. The risk of damaging your skis or yourself is too great. Altitude training on the glaciers @ 3000m+, gets your body used to the altitude. Has the advantage that you can stop whenever you want. I also see a few parents with their children skining up the side of the piste.
Maybe some people want the fitness benefits of ski touring but don't have the offpiste skills or want to risk offpiste or stump up for a guide. Wait a minute I've got it - they were from Yorkshire and didn't want to pay for a lift ticket
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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eightball, If you live near Aviemore Mountain Spirit is definitely the place to go, they were very helpful to me and it's where I got my skins for my Scott Venture.
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Piste skinning is great on the moonlight tours to the hut
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FAQ
