Ski Club 2.0 Home
Snow Reports
FAQFAQ

Mail for help.Help!!

Log in to snowHeads to make it MUCH better! Registration's totally free, of course, and makes snowHeads easier to use and to understand, gives better searching, filtering etc. as well as access to 'members only' forums, discounts and deals that U don't even know exist as a 'guest' user. (btw. 50,000+ snowHeads already know all this, making snowHeads the biggest, most active community of snow-heads in the UK, so you'll be in good company)..... When you register, you get our free weekly(-ish) snow report by email. It's rather good and not made up by tourist offices (or people that love the tourist office and want to marry it either)... We don't share your email address with anyone and we never send out any of those cheesy 'message from our partners' emails either. Anyway, snowHeads really is MUCH better when you're logged in - not least because you get to post your own messages complaining about things that annoy you like perhaps this banner which, incidentally, disappears when you log in :-)
Username:-
 Password:
Remember me:
👁 durr, I forgot...
Or: Register
(to be a proper snow-head, all official-like!)

Deciding on new jacket - state of market

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Hullo all,

Lately, I've been thinking about buying a new jacket to replace my trusty down jacket. To give you an idea of how well its served me, it's a C&A Rodeo jacket from when C&A was still in the UK! But times moves on & because the jacket's served me for so long, I'm not too sure what I'd want or need...

A bit about me:-
33 year old. Usually ski in the Alps once a year-ish for a week-10 days.

What I tend to wear:-
I'll admit that I've never really looked at the base-mid-outer layer stuff concept carefully & more or less settled on a layered system that seems to work well for me. So the below might be completely wrong Smile
"Base layer" - UNIQLO Heattech t-shirt/long-sleeved tshirt
"Mid-layer" - Rohan Gradient fleece - http://www.penroseoutdoors.co.uk/cgi-bin/sh000001.pl?PN=Rohan-Womens-Gradient-Fleece-Woad-Blue.html%23a1_21081853 (I'm a guy though!) or McKinley Dalwoodhttp://mirror.mckinley.eu/apparel-2nd-layer-dalwood-men-p425
"Outer layer" - C&A Rodeo down jacket

While I'm happy with the jacket, it does tend to get a bit soggy & clumpy when it's wet Sad Plus there's not many pockets & the idea of having a sleeve pocket for the ski pass is really appealing, as well as under-arm ventilation. Just would like a more modern jacket really...

Some of my uncertainty stems from the fact that I'm not sure if I should go for a soft-shell or a hard-shell. I will admit that it's quite scary to look at a nice looking thin & seemingly flimsy Arc'teryx jacket then see the price tag is like £500! "So much for barely a jacket?!" I'll admit something like that kinds of put me off the hardshell concept a little even if what I wear appears to lean towards the hardshell concept as I understand it...

Any thoughts/advice please?

Thanks in advance!
snow report
 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Plenty of choices at "nice price" here

http://www.sportpursuit.com/
snow conditions
 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Still some good sales stuff available. Sports Outlet has loads of Scott jackets. It's well worth a look.

As for approach, a shell jacket gives you lots of flexibility for layering and therefore keeping you feeling comfortable in all sorts of conditions.. I use icebreaker base layer, then a combination of a couple of light fleeces and on really cold days I've got a Haglofs warm jacket that I wear as well. Never had a problem being cold even at -20 and it's fine in Spring too. Another advantage of my North Face Point 5 jacket is that I can wear it in the mountains in Summer and not just for skiing.
snow report
 You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
http://www.snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=22621
snow report
 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Guess I should've been clearer as to my question!

Many thanks for the info though - I'm already on Sports Pursuit & there does seem like some nice deals as well as seen the excellent Newby guide.

What I suppose I want to ask - what should I be looking for in my next purchase? Am I already on the right path in terms of my layering, or is it wrong? I'm a bit confused as I seem to gather that the mid-layer is supposed to be the warm bit - but in my case, I'm not sure because I think I'm relying on both the heattech base layer plus the down jacket...

Thanks!
snow report
 You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
Mrdini, Is your first name Hugh?

I'll get me coat Madeye-Smiley
ski holidays
 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Mrdini, it's the warmest bit but there is no need to be over prescriptive. The idea of layering is that you can adjust to suit.
latest report
 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
even in my limited experience a hard shell is the way to go. something highly breathable (goretex pro shell), taped seams, helmet-compatible hood. then you can flesh out the warmth factor with layers.

fwiw i think the norrona stuff looks great, very minimalist and highly functional. it's not cheap though.
snow report
 You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Mrdini, check out sport pursuit as they've got a sweet protection sale that's pretty cheap that started today
snow conditions
 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
halfhand, hmm?</whoosh> Very Happy

In any case - I admit there's something I think I'm missing here... When I go into a shop & pick up say this - www.arcteryx.com/product.aspx?model=Theta-AR-Jacket (just an example mind you!) my thoughts are as follows...

* "There aren't any pockets, just holes! Where the hell do I stow my gloves, ski-pass sleeve etc. Keep my hands warm?". Most hardshells I've seen seem to like only have one pocket on the inside.
* It feels like I'm paying a few hundred quid for basically the outside, with the warm lining removed.
* No snow-skirt or hand gaiter (at least not on the thin hardshells I've seen)

Whereas by contrast, I'm looking at say for example http://www.snowinn.com/ski-store/salomon-intuition-ii-2l-jacket-men-astral-12-13/36181/p# which Snow + Rock is having on sale at the moment and has all the above features and would indeed keep me warm... (a few quid cheaper than that site for what its worth)

I just don't know - what exactly am I missing here? Don't get the impression I'm against hardshells - it's more that I'm trying to understand how a hardshell would work and why people recommend these.

Thanks!
ski holidays
 snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Mrdini wrote:
halfhand, hmm?</whoosh> Very Happy

In any case - I admit there's something I think I'm missing here... When I go into a shop & pick up say this - www.arcteryx.com/product.aspx?model=Theta-AR-Jacket (just an example mind you!) my thoughts are as follows...

* "There aren't any pockets, just holes! Where the hell do I stow my gloves, ski-pass sleeve etc. Keep my hands warm?". Most hardshells I've seen seem to like only have one pocket on the inside.
* It feels like I'm paying a few hundred quid for basically the outside, with the warm lining removed.
* No snow-skirt or hand gaiter (at least not on the thin hardshells I've seen)

Whereas by contrast, I'm looking at say for example http://www.snowinn.com/ski-store/salomon-intuition-ii-2l-jacket-men-astral-12-13/36181/p# which Snow + Rock is having on sale at the moment and has all the above features and would indeed keep me warm... (a few quid cheaper than that site for what its worth)

I just don't know - what exactly am I missing here? Don't get the impression I'm against hardshells - it's more that I'm trying to understand how a hardshell would work and why people recommend these.

Thanks!


Hardshells are the way forward. As they're just a waterproof/windproof layer, you can use them whatever the temperature. -20ºC, layer up underneath with a decent merino base and a thick fleece. +10ºC (and/or raining), just wear a thin merino base layer. Stay warm and dry (from sweat as well as snow/water) whatever the weather. It's the really high levels of waterproofing (particularly useful on mild but still snowing days - snow will melt whenever you go into a crowded gondola), windproofing and decent breathability (so you don't get soaked by sweat) that you pay for. Wearing an insulated jacket on a -2ºC day while it's snowing, you'll get soaked with sweat from the inside, and unless it's comparable quality to goretex or the like, get soaked from the outside when the snow melts on you in a lift/as you sit on patches of it on chairlifts.

All decent ski hardshells come with a snow skirt, and mostly a lift pass. The climbing ones don't, and are usually a fair whack cheaper. Your gloves keep your hands warm, not your shell, why do you need pockets for that? Plenty do come with a hand-garter, the Norona Lofoten has by FAR the best one I've ever used. Most shells will come with at least two pockets on the chest, but bulky things are much better off in your salopette pockets where the bulk doesn't matter. Cargo-trouser style salopettes (also hardhsell ftw) are great - though it's only my phone and hipflask that go in mine, usually, the rest in my backpack.

Worth pointing out that a snowskirt is only really essential if you're regularly falling over in really deep snow, and that lift passes work just fine in your salopettes - nothing wrong with saving money and getting a climbing shell without the bells and whistles!

Personally, even when it's colder than -20ºC, I couldn't fathom skiing in a down jacket. FAR to sweaty. Even in a normal insulated jacket, with only a thin base layer I sweat whilst skiing unless it's below -10ºC. Don't get me wrong, I love my down jacket, but for low-energy stuff only!
snow conditions
 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Mrdini, Like you I've not really understood about hard shells - so I'm interested to read this - useful information, thanks. I think I might go for a hard shell next, too. Might look at Sport Pursuit etc.....
snow conditions
 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Saw two really nice looking jackets on Sports Pursuit. One only available in Large and X-Large, the other only in Extra Small. I suppose that's why they're in the sale..... and I can't imagine buying a jacket without being able to try it on. I tried on about 25 softshells Au Vieux Campeur in Albertville before finding one I liked and which felt right.
snow report
 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Quote:

halfhand, hmm?</whoosh>


Mr Dini; Hugh Dini; Houdini. Oh I give up rolling eyes

Toofy Grin
snow report
 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
There's a very nice Kjus shell in snow and rock reduced to a remarkably inexpensive £450. Shocked
ski holidays
 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
I am afraid I will come in with a very different perspective. Having climbed and skied for (rather too many) years I have had a fair range of kit, and used it in extremis and for more workaday settings. I have pretty much moved away from gore tex and similar for skiing, for jackets. For salopettes, gore tex works well, as long as there is good venting. But for jackets I have migrated to layering with soft shells, and this prevents boil in the bag syndrome. Base layer I use merino wool. Mid layer fleece. Emergency micro baffle down jacket (haglofs essens). Outer layer Rab, Patagonia or arcteryx soft-shell without membrane and with good dwr Even in very high precipitation (wet snow and rain) I have not had penetration to skin or cooling due to excess evaporation and soaking. This system keeps my skin much drier than goretex. Goretex etc does tend to cause big moisture build up when the vapour pressure outside (by being in cloud etc) prevents a decent gradient across the membrane. The haglofs is a bit over the top but has been used once or twice in tricky situations; guides I know swear by having one in their pack - seldom used but a lifesaver when needed. now this is all just my experience, but in many years on the hill I have refined kit choices quite carefully. The Patagonia speed ascent and north wall - both discontinued but the latter is still around in sales are fantastic soft shells with a thick fleece lining - excellent for wicking and keeping dry. My speed ascent is the jacket of choice when skiing and has worked from minus30 to plus 10. Patagucci north wall is the replacement model. Rab is the vapour -rise and fantastic technical smock (long discontinued but comes up on eBay - montane smock is a replacement and very very cheap but a fantastic piece of kit - the elite armed forces really rate them and buy their own to use in the field). Sorry about this very different take - doesn't help with decision making....


Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Thu 12-09-13 21:10; edited 1 time in total
latest report
 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
valais2, does this depend a bit on what you're actually doing, out on the mountain? I would imagine that long ascents and exertion in extreme conditions calls for very different gear from folk who sit on chairlifts and then only ski downhill?
ski holidays
 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
valais2, horses for courses, but after using a couple of (non-membrane) softshells I find I get wet through on snowy days where the mercury is hovering a little above zero. Particularly as the snow melts after cramming into a 30-odd man cable car with 40-odd over-eager powderhounds - especially under backpack straps/etc - or when sitting on a slushy chairlift. Some soft shells have even got wet through just carrying slushy skis on my shoulder in spring. Wouldn't be without one for spring touring, but as 'one jacket for everything' I'll be sticking to hardshells (with venting wink ). Goretex softshell would be fine, but that's essentially a hardhsell anyway...
latest report
 You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
pam w wrote:
Saw two really nice looking jackets on Sports Pursuit. One only available in Large and X-Large, the other only in Extra Small. I suppose that's why they're in the sale..... and I can't imagine buying a jacket without being able to try it on. I tried on about 25 softshells Au Vieux Campeur in Albertville before finding one I liked and which felt right.


They often (not always) do have a full range of sizes, but new stock sells out VERY quickly in the popular sizes. With distance selling regs you should be able to buy, try and send back without a penalty if it's not right for you.
latest report
 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
valais2, Which Montane smock are you refering to? Thanks for the equipment rundown. I've been questioning my Proshell effectiveness in some situations for a while. Interested in your kit of choice.
snow report
 You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
pam w, clarky999, ...pam...good question but although I climb a lot, that involves different gear choice...this choice is def for skiing including long periods on the slowest chair in the universe i(cabane de Bois in cma)...

Clarky, agree that goretex for back bottom very important. But with the new dwr available on Patagonia and arcteryx there's no real problem re water penetration in the contexts you describe, but that' only my experience....
latest report
 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Ade57, This is the montane jacket - fabulous piece of kit

http://www.montane.co.uk/range/men/extreme/extreme-smock
snow report
 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
valais2 The Mountain Equipmemt Pulsar is my replacement for my insulated softshell (having had a Mixmaster (fantastic) and Winter Guide (Ok, if I'd have not got it in the sale, I'd have been disappointed!)

http://www.mountain-equipment.co.uk/the_gear/clothing/softshell/pulsar_jacket---723/

Better cut (for me) and better hood than recent Pattagucci offerings (same material). I am an ME fanboi now though.....

I'm a softshell convert. Though my priority is climbing in Scotland, I've found anything that'll work for Scottish winter will breeze through Alpine conditions and as a weekend warrior and family man I need one "outfit" that'll do everything!
snow conditions
 You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
valais2, I'm with you (in general - a couple of tweaks for my own preferences) for days where there will be a lot of up and down. for riding lifts (esp in damp/snowy conditions), I think hardshell still wins
latest report
 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
galpinos, Yes I've noted that ME is finally daring to do kit which doesn't look as if it was designed in the 50s - I've go tplenty of it but stylish it is'nt - jackets like their pulsar are a good departure into ciontemporary looking kit.
snow conditions
 snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
My softshell, which I agonised over Au Vieux Campeur is a Haglofs, and majors on breathability. Have just found the jacket I think I want but it's far too expensive!

http://www.haglofs.com/en-us/products/clothing/layers/shell-layer/women/couloir_iii_q_jacket_en-us.aspx
snow report
 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
valais2 ME have a new head designer for the last few years that has totally re-vamped their line up. The cut is really good (fit's me a lot better than the boxy patagucci cut, I'm no racing whippet but no big fat yank either) and they're now stylish.

I've got the Eclipse hooded zip tee (replaced my R1 hoody, better hood and nicer fit), ultratherm and firefly smock as well which are all great bits of kit.
snow report
 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Thought I'd jump on this as I've been looking at getting a soft shell for this coming season.

Does anyone have experience of Sweet Protection stuff - lots on Sports Pursuit but can't really find much details about them, in particular the Duke and Hammers. How do they compare to Arctyerx or ME?
latest report
 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
sweet is pretty good stuff, they sponsor a mate of mine, and it id him ok in alaska for a 3 weeks this winter so it must be ok. my perception is good...but not quite as good as arctyerx, but then its not quite as expensive either Smile
snow conditions
 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Dibergio wrote:
Thought I'd jump on this as I've been looking at getting a soft shell for this coming season.

Does anyone have experience of Sweet Protection stuff - lots on Sports Pursuit but can't really find much details about them, in particular the Duke and Hammers. How do they compare to Arctyerx or ME?


I've got Sweet Protection base layers and they are VERY well made. I was also skiing with a chap last season who had one of their one-piece suits and he could only rave about it.
ski holidays
 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Thanks for the feedback.

I'm also getting a bit confused about soft/hard shells. Would something made of 2/3 layer Gortex Pro/performance Shell be a hard shell?

Breathability is important for me as I'm a relative beginner and still find myself sweating a load, especially getting to the first lift in the morning.
snow conditions
 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Dibergio, what do you want to know?

The Duke will be a warm jacket as it's an insulated shell, the Hammer a classic insulated shell. They both use Gore-Tex Performance, not Pro Shell so make sure you're comparing like with like when looking at price compared to other manufactures, Performance is a lot cheaper. They don't state which Primaloft is used so I imagine it wasn't the top of the range One. They both seem pretty heavy, with a baggy cut and lots of (un-necessary imho) features/pockets. This will either be a plus point or a minus point depending on your style/usage. I like slim light jackets with minimal pockets and no faff. These are the opposite but probably look "cooler".

No idea on quality.
latest report
 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
galpinos, cheers for that.

From what you say, the Sweet stuff isn't for me. I'm looking for something really breathable, that will keep out the snow, but I don't need it to keep out relentless rain (I'll be inside then!). For insulation I'll be using a mid-layer. Would like a pocket on the arm for my ski-pass, and whilst not had before would be interested in snow skirts and wrist gaiters.

I like the look of the Arc'teryx and ME stuff, I think the Sweet Protection looks a bit too trendy for me, I like the cuts to be a bit closer.

Any thoughts on the Arc'teryx Sabre vs Venta or the ME Trojan?
snow report
 You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
Paramo all the way for proper waterproofing. I've got and had the lot (Gortex Pro, eVent, Windstropper etc), I like eVent stuff as its far more breathable than Gortex, however my Paramo Velez Adventure Light smock is the most water resistant, comfortable and robust of bits of kit. Typically too warm for regularly UK use (other than full on winter), but absolutely brilliant in the Alps and lasts forever as there's no membrane. There's a very good reason that Mountain Rescue use it. You're not going to get flashy luminous colours though or trendy baggy cuts. Loads of good venting options as well.

You're doing the right thing (IMO) re looking to insulate with mid-layers rather than have a huge thick insulated jacket that is too hot when it gets a bit warmer.

ps I'm not on the payroll of Paramo or any other outdoor kit manufacturer (although I have been sponsored by Montane in a race team previously).
latest report
 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Paramo all the way for proper waterproofing. I've got and had the lot (Gortex Pro, eVent, Windstropper etc), I like eVent stuff as its far more breathable than Gortex, however my Paramo Velez Adventure Light smock is the most water resistant, comfortable and robust of bits of kit. Typically too warm for regularly UK use (other than full on winter), but absolutely brilliant in the Alps and lasts forever as there's no membrane. There's a very good reason that Mountain Rescue use it. You're not going to get flashy luminous colours though or trendy baggy cuts. Loads of good venting options as well.

You're doing the right thing (IMO) re looking to insulate with mid-layers rather than have a huge thick insulated jacket that is too hot when it gets a bit warmer.

ps I'm not on the payroll of Paramo or any other outdoor kit manufacturer (although I have been sponsored by Montane in a race team previously).
latest report
 You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
Quote:

You're not going to get flashy luminous colours though or trendy baggy cuts


Ha! It might not be a trendy baggy cut but it's certainly a baggy cut. It's like wearing a hessian sack......
latest report
 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
galpinos, not sure about that: I'm not a large chap and my Velez AL Smock fits really well. Granted some of the jackets are more "roomy"

Quote:

It's like wearing a hessian sack......


Not sure I understand the "hessian" bit of this. They're really comfortable to wear IMO.
snow conditions
 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Dibergio, the top line Sweet kit (like the Supernaut shell type stuff) is every bit as good as Arcteryx, Norrona, Haglofs, etc. Tends to be a bit baggier though. I've been using a lot of Sweet kit for a while (particularly helmets), and have had nothing but 100% positive experiences.
ski holidays
 You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
[ Dibergio, ...yes 3 layer does tend to be 'hardshell' but increasingly there are jeckets with a membrane and which use softshell fabric - eg mammut softech jackets. But the main difference is a softshell is exactly that: soft. Paramo are very very soft, and work on an animal analogue model - watershedding outside using silicone (a duck analogy) then insulation and water resistance using inverted fur (analogue with function of fur in bearskin). Basicallly the garment does get saturated in rain but the moisture evaporates using body heat before it touches the body. But as great as Paramo is (and the function is indeed great - since I have used it in anger in extremis - velez smock (excellent) and aspira smock (excellent but heavy)) - and as great as the feel is - ie very soft and compliant, not rigid like a hardshell - it is not as stylish as the other brands discussed here (this is an understatement). Form should indeed follow function, but that said, for aesthetics I would still lead with haglofs, arcteryx, etc. Hardshells, like the Peak Performance Heli Guide which I use in heavy heavy rain, or in very high very dry alpine conditions, are good things, but have disadvantages in high energy contexts (boil in the bag syndrome even with pitzips) and the collars interfere with the back of helmets since they are so rigid. In one case a collar rubbed my face raw when I had it done up all day in dire conditions - even with moleskin inner - while softshells accommodate helmet movement, seal better around gloves etc - due to softness and compliance. Interestingly my Montane system 6 high altitude softshell, and my Patagonia Dimension softshell are very abrasion-resistant - the equal of the 3 ply gore hardshells which I have, and that's down to excellent fabric choice by the manufacturers and great quality control.
latest report
 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
For the Sweet range I would strongly recomend, its 3 layer pro shell gore tex and every bit as good as Norrona. The Supernaut is slim fitting and I have this from last season. The Crusader is baggier...... Duke is lower end and insulated

Norrona Lofoten is a good bet for classic style...

For the ultimate though, Orage Retallack - You will be one of the few with that jacket!
snow report



Terms and conditions  Privacy Policy