 Poster: A snowHead
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A relaxed Finlay Mickel after the practice run, feeling relatively secure with his 14th best time after the best 30 racers had gone down...
Then performances by middle-order racers that gradually moved him further and further down the order, to eventually end up in 32nd.
As Finlay commented after the run, it's a flat course, relatively easy, and so the slightest error can cost dearly. Still the start order in tomorrow's race proper was not decided by the times in today's practice, so Finlay will start at 4. Ones to watch? Deneriaz with bib no. 10, Walchhofer (with today's fastest time) at no. 29, Miller of course at 30, and Maier, second fastest today at no. 25. Daron Rahlves was right out of it today, but with times having no bearing on tomorrow's start order for the elite downhillers, it's impossible to tell who's on form or otherwise. The training run as a spectator sport is a bit of a farce really...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Results of Saturday's downhill: here.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Up at the Val D press office at the moment. Fantastic day for racing, and the Austrians well and truly on form back on European snow, taking four out of the first five places.
Great performance by Finlay who must be kicking himself a little - in 17th place which is a good result in itself, but only 39/100ths off his first top ten finish. On this flattish, rather 'easy' course any mistake is paid for dearly ... interviewed Finlay after the race, details to come later when I get home...
Bode was in the points in 7th, but the power team, led by Walchhofer, completely dominated today's racing...
Tomorrow sees the Combined, a shortened Downhill in the morning, followed by a Slalom...
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Reminds me of the Hahnenkamm race in Kitzbuhel when Austria took 1-2-3 ... and they were all on Blizzard skis ... which caused much merriment in the Blizzard boardroom!
"Flattish" ... "easy"? Certainly it has some mellow sections but if you take the total vert against the total length I would have thought the OK stands up to critical comparison.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| "Flattish" ... "easy"? Certainly it has some mellow sections but if you take the total vert against the total length I would have thought the OK stands up to critical comparison. |
Didn't realise your expertise included what represents a difficult course for professional downhillers. All the same, I'd rather take the word of the coach of the French men's downhill team, Finlay himself this afternoon and various others who made similar comments today and yesterday - on which the above quote was based - if you don't mind. The vertical drop isn't the issue.
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Yes David Goldsmith, Please refrain from expressing an opinion. Thats just not how things are done.
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Having skied the OK I don't know how many times since 1970 there's no way I'd describe it as "flattish" or "easy", especially the mid section when you descend through the woods. It rather diminishes the achievement of the racers, some of whom have actually died or been seriously injured on that course.
The vertical, in relation to the course length, defines the average pitch. So let's make a scientific comparison of pitches between the OK and some other well-known downhill courses.
PG - you've bounced the adjectives "flattish" and "easy" to a racer and coach but they were your descriptions as reported. Be fair!
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An initial comparison of these World Cup downhill courses, vertical followed by length:
Garmisch / Kandahar: 960m over 3445m. Average pitch 28%
Wengen / Lauberhorn: 1028m over 4200m. Average pitch 24%
Kitzbuhel / Hahnenkamm: 863m over 3312m. Average pitch 26%
Val d'Isere / OK: 1015m over 3400m. Average pitch 30%
The above data was sourced from ski2b.com, except for Val d'Isere: valsport.org.
It needs corroborating. I can't find anything on the FIS site on this. Anyone know of an official comparative source?
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Report on today's Val d'Isere downhill: SkiRacing.com.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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What a fabulous day! Great atmosphere at the race, fabulous weather and a strong performance from Finlay Mickel. I got to say hello to Bode Miller and to Finlay after the race, which topped off a great day. The Combined race takes place tomorrow, so a bit more downhill and some slalom racing to keep me entertained 
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
Having skied the OK I don't know how many times since 1970 there's no way I'd describe it as "flattish" or "easy", especially the mid section when you descend through the woods. It rather diminishes the achievement of the racers, some of whom have actually died or been seriously injured on that course.
The vertical, in relation to the course length, defines the average pitch. So let's make a scientific comparison of pitches between the OK and some other well-known downhill courses.
PG - you've bounced the adjectives "flattish" and "easy" to a racer and coach but they were your descriptions as reported. Be fair! |
| PG wrote: |
| As Finlay commented after the run, it's a flat course, relatively easy, and so the slightest error can cost dearly. |
Did you read the above properly? First of all they "bounced" the adjectives to me, not the other way around, as you incorrectly stated. It wouldn't have occurred to me otherwise, and I certainly don't see the point in expressing a personal view on how difficult a race course might be because I'm not qualified to give an opinion.
Secondly what appears steep or difficult to you may be a stroll in the park to the serious racer.
Thirdly, and perhaps most important, it's how the course is prepared as much as anything. It's the nature and location of the turns, jumps, rollers and compressions that can make one speed event far tougher than another.
The course conditions and the way it is set may indeed have played a part in injury and death before, as might physical condition and poor judgment on the day... or even just bad luck. But that was then, this is now, and the opinions being expressed by the pros were on today's course, none other.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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PG,
If he doesn’t think it’s flat or easy so what - go and take some photos or measure the snow depth - make yourself useful man!
Anyway lot’s of people harping on about only 30cm and no lifts open in ValD, maybe you could go measure the snow and confirm if this is the real reason or maybe become a real journo’ and write a story about how the lift company has been bribed by the bar owners to keep the lifts shut!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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PG, what did FM actually say?
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You know it makes sense.
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Fair question. I think, in fairness, that's the problem in interpreting what you wrote, PG.
If your description of the course as "flattish" and "easy" was actually Finlay Mickel's then the best thing is to quote him verbatim. As written, it was your description.
As Bode Miller pointed out on Channel 4 today, the course is anything but easy. His words were "This course caused me problems". If, as you say, the French coach claimed the course is "easy" then how come none of his racers placed higher than 15? (on home turf) I'm surprised if he said that, because it's his nation's flagship downhill, so there's some national prestige hanging on the technical demands of the course!
No downhill is easy, because the racer is either under test of his aerodynamic and gliding skills, or he's under test of his control skills on the steeper sections. What was clear yesterday was that the course was running relatively slow yesterday, presumably due to the new snow (which may have also been cold enough to have made the Austrian ski technician a national hero - there seems to have been some magic under those Austrian downhillers' planks)
The Val d'Isere OK is certainly smoother in gradient - though steeper overall - than the Hahnenkamm or Lauberhorn. The difference is that both the latter have proportions of their length concentrated in steep difficult sections, such as the Mausefalle, Steilhang or Hundschopf.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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David Goldsmith, you obviously missed what PG wrote in the post after the practice run:
| Quote: |
| As Finlay commented after the run, it's a flat course, relatively easy, and so the slightest error can cost dearly. |
It's a shame when a fairly inconsequential comment, offered with the best of intentions, is jumped on from a great height. Once again another thread gets diverted from a discussion of skiing into one of 'journalistic' process.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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David Goldsmith, my apologies, you obviously know better than the likes of mere national ski racing coaches, and the ski racers themselves. May I suggest you apply for a job with the French Federation, they are obviously in need of some good advice, given the current run of results.
Once again DG, did you read the unedited precis of Finlay's comments after the practice run, posted above?
How come none of the French racers placed higher than 15th? What's that got to do with the price of fish?
I was talking to one of the Italian coaches going back down in the funival yesterday morning. He made the same comment - and added that the danger is always that the lack of technical difficulty in circumstances like this could lead to a relative unknown making it onto the podium. In the event this didn't happen, though various people commented that weight/build certainly played a part on this course. The run had few technical difficulties and was comparatively "easy", according to numerous people on the spot who in theory might know a touch more about the subject than you.
Personally I don't give a monkey's. They are not my opinions, I just report on what people on the spot are saying. Stop misrepresenting my comments, stop trying to put words in my mouth, and we will get on just fine.
For snowHeads who would like to read the reports Racer-Ready and I have put together on the various recent races, they are here:
Controversy in the Val d'Isère Combined, Sunday
Val d'Isère Downhill, Saturday
Women's Super G Aspen
Lake Louise Women's Super G, Chemmy On Form
Beaver Creek Slalom
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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NorthWestFace, I agree, it is time to chill. Unfortunately this is not the first time that threads have been diverted from what (IMHO) snowHeads is about, into some weird arguments about the process by which skiing news should be reported. That might explain some of the reactions in this thread.
To get back on topic, today was another glorious day in Val, with some terrific ski racing including a chance to watch some of the slalom specialists is action. More of the domain is opening up, which is good news for anyone heading out this way for some early season skiing, and more snow is forcast towards the end of the week.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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rob@rar.org.uk,
Any snow forecast in the near future?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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NorthWestFace, Thursday/Friday looks quite hopeful, but moderate snowfalls rather than a big dump. Of course, there's no guarantee that the Snow Gods will look favourably on the upper Tarentaise - they seem to have been looking in the other direction in recent weeks 
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| Quote: |
| I was talking to one of the Italian coaches going back down in the funival yesterday morning. He made the same comment - and added that the danger is always that the lack of technical difficulty in circumstances like this could lead to a relative unknown making it onto the podium. |
I think that's the point. The Val d'Isere OK doesn't generate freak results, because it's a technically demanding course. Here are the views of two ski racing journalists:
| Quote: |
| The final section of the course at Val d'Isére is quite exciting with some spectacular jumps, a tough compression followed by some sharp hairpin turns which demand great power in the leg and in the mind. |
(Manuèle Lang, writing for MountainZone.com)
The above was written before the modifications to the course last winter, which were designed to achieve enhanced safety and fluidity, but maintain enough technical challenge to sort the wheat fromt the chaff:
| Quote: |
| Several portions of the classic course have been adjusted for enhanced flow and safety. Coming into what is known as "the Compression" near the bottom of the course, athletes come into a jump at a different angle than before. "It's primarily for safety reasons," said Jean-Claude Fritsch, the head of the organizing committee. "We cut down 17 trees. They used to come in one way and have to turn in mid-air, and now they come in at a different direction... It is safer and more fluid." The changes got generally positive reviews from the athletes after the training run. |
(Nathaniel Vinton, Ski Racing)
So, yes, the OK has been made more fluid and safe, but any racer/coach who disses is as "easy" is probably someone who'll never win it. The best way to win downhills is to respect the technical demands of the courses and exploit every nugget of speed from them.
I wonder if the Austrian winner of Saturday's downhill described it as "easy"?
It's certainly true that low-gradient downhills generate freak results. I guess the classic case was 1984 and the Sarajevo Olympic event, won by American racer Bill Johnson. But, as I say, we didn't see a freak result from the OK on Saturday, and there's therefore no evidence that the modifications to the course made it easy.
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Honestly, who really cares.
I agree with rob@rar.org.uk, this thread has been totally diverted, once again, to the detriment of snowHeads.
My opinion based on my having skied it is that I was surprised to find out that a mere red run was the official World Cup downhill course. Le Face would seem to be a more technically challenging course, and a better place to end the race IMHO.
PG thanks for you coverage and quotes from the race, as always very useful and interesting.
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Kramer, I can't see how it's been diverted - it's totally on topic!
It's true that the OK is controversial. Ski race courses usually are. The modifications are interesting. The varying opinions of the speed of the course are interesting.
As to whether downhills should exceed the gradient of a red run is doubtful - very high speeds are achieved on red runs. Black runs would generally be too dangerous.
The Bellevarde Face is apparently still mired in its own controversies because the FIS seem to be uneasy about its pitch and the tightness of the course near a rocky outcrop.
That course may not be used again until the 2009 World Ski Championships, and it's not clear that the FIS have approved it for that event yet. Ultimately they - and the racers - have to be happy with it.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Back to the Criterium. Next rv is for the women's races this week, with practice starting on Wednesday, in theory. However looking at this forecast, I wonder whether the same fate is in store for the event as last year, with the races cancelled because of the weather conditions.
Take a look at this weather site, and the ten day forecast for Bourg St Maurice. Everything looks great up to Wednesday, but then....
Still, if snows from Thursday through to the following Tuesday, I doubt many snowHeads will be complaining!!
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| Quote: |
Back to the Criterium
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Thank the bloody lord. 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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[quote="Kramer"]Honestly, who really cares.
I agree with [b]rob@rar.org.uk[/b], this thread has been totally diverted, once again, to the detriment of snowHeads.
My opinion based on my having skied it is that I was surprised to find out that a mere red run was the official World Cup downhill course. Le Face would seem to be a more technically challenging course, and a better place to end the race IMHO.
[/quote]
Le Face? Are you joking?
Thank you David Goldsmith, for one of the more interesting thread diversions.
PG, still waiting for some quotes re 'easy'.
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Here's a blog with some photos taken over the course of the weekend.
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You know it makes sense.
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My apologies Gents, (you know who you are) for not making it to Les Tufs. We had a rather late and fine lunch in La Fruitiere and only managed off the hill at 16h45 in time to be dragged off shopping (for dinner, hats, etc.) by the girls.
So much for the glory days of yore.
I trust you had a fine drink and a good ski? We did...
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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David Murdoch, no worries. Graham and I met for a couple of apres-ski drinks (well, apres-ski for me; apres-travel for him). Hope you enjoyed your weekend in Val?
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Poster: A snowHead
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PG, any chance of quoting what MF said?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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In an interview with Eurosport Finlay said that it was "quite easy, a flattish course where the slightest mistake costs". In an interview with me (alone), in response to my (taped) "you said yesterday that it's a pretty easy course where the slightest mistake can lose a lot of time" Finlay replied: "I made two mistakes at the end of the Meadows, I was a bit wide around the large right foot turn, the double coming into the Meadows, and I was a bit angry with myself, I shouted out aloud throughout that turn, because I was looking for it more. The biggest thing I was talking to the coaches about last night was looking for speed, looking to be in the tuck and staying in that tuck as much as I could. Because it was going to be a course, today, that was won by people who risked the most, took the tightest line and stayed aerodynamic. So, I did that a lot better than yesterday, and made a few mistakes."
Anyone remember the slight controversy over the forthcoming Winter Olympics Women's Super G course when they did a WC there end of last season? Nothing to do with vertical drop - there's a minimum specified for that in the first place. But Dorfmeister (and others) didn't like it for the same reasons as above. In fact in response to Neil McQuoid's:
"The slopes for the Olympics? Do you feel they have done enough to make the races hard enough?"
She replied:
"When you have the gold around your neck, it does not matter how the slope looks! A good racer does not want to go on an easy course however! The field of the best can be ten or it can be forty, and when the course is very easy the field gets larger and then there are so many girls that can win. The older ones, we want to have a difficult slope, we want a harder course, one that is bumpy at the start and not just heavy weight and fast skis being enough to win. We want to show what we can do. At San Sicario the Super G slope is very flat and there is just one jump. You need a heavyweight body and good skis and then you are in front."
In other words, a pretty identical situation to the one in Val which has given rise to a lot of nonsense here.
Thinking about it, when listening to Ski Sunday, I've just remembered someone commenting that 'mass' and 'weight' played an important role on a course of this nature (Val).
Anyway I'm off to Val shortly to watch Chemmy train. Maybe I'd better warn her that the consensus from some snowHeads is that it's a challenging course that doesn't favour the gliders and she'd better ignore any suggestions from coaches to the contrary
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Thanks, PG. I only asked for the quote, by the way. Interesting stuff, but spoiled by the pile of condescending gobshite at the end.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Tim Brown, you would twist on 21 !
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Tim Brown, probationary mod mode not engaged today 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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kuwait_ian, ...Tim Brown, Once a troll always............... 
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Paul Mason, kuwait_ian, snowbunny, Which bit of Tims post do you disagree with ?
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Frosty the Snowman, just the pile of condescending gobshite at the end !
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Tim Brown, please shut up.
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Sorry folks but I think Tim has a point.
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FAQ
God forbid! Bribing the STVI to keep the lifts shut would empty the resort though, might not achieve the desired result...
I eventually headed up to the Grand Motte where conditions were perfect (where I bumped into Phil Smith, my instructor from a couple of weeks ago, who saw me practising drills on one of the race pistes 