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So who's buying an airbag rucksack for next season?

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
meh, I agree with your principles but there is NOTHING about that video that made me want to be there, doing that.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Here is what I know about the filming and the avalanche:

Firstly ABS knew nothing about the filming or the avalanche until after the event.

The filming company for the Ford advert the Kuga (UCK) offered ABS a edit free of charge as they were pretty shocked about the avalanche and what happened maybe it was a way of saying sorry I don;'t know.

There must have been more than one run on the slope that slipped as you can clearly see another track whilst the avalanche is happening.

If it was me I would have pulled the handle quicker and then tried to ski out, but hey this guy was filming an advert and that would have affected his judgement in many ways.

The rights and wrongs of this video as advertising etc etc I will leave up to everyone else to comment on, the trade were told about a week before the video went live on you tube

PS Carbon Mammut cylinders on way very shortly next week hopefully Very Happy
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
livetoski, who are the production company saying sorry to? I rather think they were more hoping to benefit from the network effect of having ABS use it as a piece of advertising.
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The main thing I took away from the video (as with the other Julien Something video) was how much he did to save himself. The proactive self-rescue, getting out to the side, was what really saved him. Staying calm enough to think clearly enough to do that in life-threatening situations isn't easy, but the more you do to save yourself the easier/quicker/safer the rescue is for your mates down the line.

I've never been in such a life-threatening position skiing (and, touchwood, hope never to be!), but I have kayaking. Looking back on it, prior training, reading about similar past accidents, actually thinking about what to do if I found myself such a situation (thoughts/mental protocols already in place) made a big difference to the outcome. The maturity to override my arrogance would have avoided the situation in the first place, but it was a very good lesson to learn.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
meh,
Quote:

who are the production company saying sorry to? I


You may well be right I don't know its a little assumption on my part.

The whole area of posting avalanche videos is a bit of a strange area, I often think if god forbid I got caught in one and had it on film would I post it on You tube??? My thinking at the moment is no I wouldn't Puzzled
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 You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.

Just a warning about shark-infested avalanches, for anyone thinking of getting an airbag.



Sorry, this is a serious subject ------ joke over.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
livetoski wrote:

The whole area of posting avalanche videos is a bit of a strange area, I often think if god forbid I got caught in one and had it on film would I post it on You tube??? My thinking at the moment is no I wouldn't Puzzled

I think it would depend on the outcome and who, if anyone was to blame. A few years ago I was in a quite big avalanche with 7 others (I posted about it on here). Extremely luckily nobody was hurt or even buried (except the guide who was partially buried), though lots of skis etc were lost. If there had happened to be a video taken of it and only I had been involved I think I might have posted it. As it was I wouldn't have wanted to damage the career of the guide since we agreed it had been a freak event and he wasn't negligent. And anyway, with several people involved we'd have had to agree.
I suppose, though, if someone has probably made a bad call, as in this case, then the accepting or evading of public blame is involved. By posting it they were, in effect, admitting they made a mistake.
On the other occasion when I came even nearer to dying on skis I wrote about it (published Daily Mail Ski magazine) and later put it on here, but without giving the surname of the guide. But I suppose in writing I was turning it into literature of a sort and keeping some control of how it was perceived.


Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Wed 9-10-13 17:30; edited 2 times in total
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
livetoski wrote:
PS Carbon Mammut cylinders on way very shortly next week hopefully Very Happy
Cool beans! All of this season's kit is beginning to arrive. Skis from Head, clothing from Salomon, avy gear from Snow Shepherd (must talk to you about a decent probe and maybe a new shovel).

It's a scary video Sad
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Looks like the Back country, Jetforce System is available.

Might be a prototype, but it looks interesting.


http://youtube.com/v/-hwsxWaq9kQ


http://youtube.com/v/p-zLn6Kw0QA
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 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
qwertyuiop7, very interesting. A lack of an explosive trigger or a compressed gas cylinder will certainly make flying more straightforward. Will look forward to seeing more info about how well this tests in real avalanches.
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 snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
qwertyuiop7,

good post I had not spotted the wildsnow thing yet so it was in interesting watch.

The bag clearly had sample on it, plus I don't know if they have Euro approval yet, there are quite a few points that I would want to look at before commenting so as an observation these are:

Position of the pack on the back looks low.
Auto deflation after 3 mins
Size of Battery
Size of Fan
Activation Handle
Space in side the pack
Snowboard carry
Waist belt buckles
Manual deflation of bag

Ok lets hope thy have one at the next trade show
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Quote:

A lack of an explosive trigger or a compressed gas cylinder will certainly make flying more straightforward


I wouldn't take a bet on that Rob wink
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
rob@rar wrote:
qwertyuiop7, very interesting. A lack of an explosive trigger or a compressed gas cylinder will certainly make flying more straightforward. Will look forward to seeing more info about how well this tests in real avalanches.


I don't recon you would be allowed to fly with a Lithium ion battery pack that big in your hand luggage???

Back to the bag, It looks very, shall I say "functional" and boxy, not as well speced and laid out as say the Ortovox Freerider or the Snowpulse's

Plus there doesn't look to be much actual room inside the pack for all your stuff. The air bag and fan seem to take up most of the room, but I could be wrong.


I work in design for a Luxury car manufacturer and we spend millions on getting our stuff to work in sub zero temperatures, Electronics and battery performance being two of the biggest issues, they both hate the cold. Plus the fan is obviously a moving part and even though it looks to be shielded there is a chance (small chance I admit) that something could fall in jam the blades, a stray binding screw, old fluff covered polo Happy
The good thing with a bottle of compressed gas is when you pull that pin its coming out and nothing is going to stop it.

Unless is superlight, super cheap (or both) I think I will still look to get a Snowpulse this season.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
http://www.powdermag.com/stories/op-ed-calling-bullsht/

Powder weighs in on the avi video from earlier.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
meh, A good article. The guy was lucky that he didn't get banged up on the rock bands. The best avi protection is not getting caught in the first place.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Vario has now more compatible back packs from many other manufacturers - Dakine are most recent plus others.

Vario Small for me!
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
If anyone is interested ...?

Henrys Avalanche Talk - Avalanche Awareness
Manchester 23rd Oct, 7.30-9.00pm at Ellis Brigham Deansgate
Pre-book £10, on the door £12

http://www.ellis-brigham.com/advice-inspiration/blogs/arcteryx-avalanche-awareness-tour-2013/
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Got my carbon snowpulse canister the other day. It's a thing of beauty. Regardless of whether it saves me it's a lovely piece of kit! One thing though, it says in the leaflet "check the canister is full". How do you do that?
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Quote:

"check the canister is full". How do you do that?


There is a sticker on the cylinder which says someting like 328.06g and a little picture with a plus or minus 5g
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Oh and don't forget to take the cap off when you weigh your cylinder !
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You'll need to Register first of course.
So finally opened my wallet and pulled the trigger on a Mammut 22L Ride RAS.
Have promised myself an airbag for a few years (though don't ever intend on pulling the trigger in anger!)

Really pleased with it. Most importantly it is a great pack and not too heavy so will happily use it every ski day. Hummed and hawed between the 22L and 30L version. Loaded up the 22L last night with everything I would need for a glacial ski tour (9mm rope, skins, crampons, axe, harschein, map, 500ml water, lunch, shovel, probe). It all fits in - with just a little room to spare. I am sure there will be occasions when I wish that I had a 30L. However most of my skiing is lift accessed or non glacial tours. So the 22L made most sense for 80-90% of the skiing I do.

Thanks to Tim at SnowSheperd for a snowheads discount + advice on the canisters etc.
Seemed like a nice dude and he stocks a wide range of kit.
http://shop.snowshepherd.co.uk/
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Haggis_Trap, awwwwwwwwwww love you too xx Toofy Grin
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
^ ha : and to think that normally I just use this forum to wind people up Wink
Dxxx
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 You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Haggis_Trap, Yep, I just got the 30L, looks slightly larger than I need (my use is similar to yours), however I like the option to carry a bit more (extra layers, gloves etc), and the compression straps seem to work well. I think I'll load it up like you did and see how it looks. Thumbs up to Tim from me too Happy
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 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Yep, the Mammut RAS 30L is pretty roomy, I think the 22L is going to be the right size for day touring and lift served off-piste. I had imagined that the RAS system and cylinder would take up a lot of space but they really don't seem to. The carbon cylinder is very compact, smaller than a 0.5L drink bottle and MUCH smaller than the alu ones you see in YouTube videos (I assume the big ones are the lower pressure north American versions).

I suspect you could easily do hut to hut tours with the 30L if you travel light. I suppose if you travel really light you could go with the 22L maybe?


Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads on Mon 28-10-13 14:21; edited 1 time in total
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 snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
are there any airbag packs where access to the main pack is through a panel in the back (like some Osprey packs and the old Marmot La Meije) - that was a great design IMV
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Arno wrote:
are there any airbag packs where access to the main pack is through a panel in the back (like some Osprey packs and the old Marmot La Meije) - that was a great design IMV


I've not seen one in person, but this review of the Mammut Pro sounds like it is just what you are after. The pro comes in 35L or 45L versions.
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
sah, cheers - that's what I was thinking of
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Ok, the big airbag debate. I'm not going to go into the many side-issues of airbags, as many have already been mentioned above. However, one key problem has been travelling with them. I'm lucky enough to live where I ski, so it's not an issue for me. However, most people from UK will fly to their ski trip this winter.

Black Diamond have just released an airbag (not in the shops yet, but it will be very soon) called JetForce. It doesn't use compressed gas - it has a Lithium Ion battery, and a fan. Yes, you did read that correctly. After initiation it spins the fan (many 1000s RPM), and inflates the bag in a comparable time to a standard airbag like ABS, SnowPulse and BCA Float.

It weighs just over 3kg, like all other airbags.

Now, as we all know, batteries suffer in the cold, but BD have done extensive testing and would not be releasing this if it didn't work on seriously cold days. The bag can be repacked, and even re-deployed without a re-charge. On returning to your accommodation you can simply plug the battery in to the mains electric and re-charge it fully.

I think it's a shame they haven't made it lighter as that is a major factor for many people, but the concept is good. Any no airline can complain about a battery....

We have a video of it in use on our Resources Page: http://tiny.cc/itfq5w (video courtesy of snowsafe)

Have a safe season.......
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
^ I really want to be excited by the Black Diamond jet force.
However...

- Black Diamond Jet Force is 3.3Kg. Current light weight air bags (BCA / Mammut) are 2.5kg or less with carbon cylinders. Big difference!
- It is very easy to fly with compressed air in Europe if you check it in with your ski bag. Only is the USA is flying actually an issue with pressurised cylinders.
- It certainly wont be straightforward to fly with a giant Li-Ion battery either....
- I am not sure that a battery + fan + protection unit will ever be lighter or smaller than a compressed air cylinder (remember both systems use a venturi valve to suck in outside air at deployment!)

The Jet Force concept has potential and looks exciting on paper : However the technology has some way to evolve.
Lou Dawson is singing the praises over on his site @wild snow. However he probably needs to keep BD sweet to get the scoop Wink
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Apologies for repeating the jetforce info- I've just spotted that someone else had already included the video on an earlier post.

Anyway, regarding airbag weights, I have yet to find any airbags at 2.5kg. I've personally weighed most of those on the market, and they are all around 3kg. Some list their weight without gas cylinder (a bit sneaky I think). BCA Float 32 is 2.9kg. Regarding the Mammut RAS packs, I was actually in the Mammut shop today in Chamonix and discussed airbag weight with the guy who works there. He said the only way to get a pack down to 2.5kg is to strip off the hip belt, the internal frame, and all accessory straps - "without doing that they all weigh around 3kg".

As for travelling with a LiIon battery, I don't work for an airline, but don't see why it would be an issue. You could even run it down so it's travelling uncharged. Any pilots reading this who can shed any light on whether that would be an issue ?? And who's to say they won't make the battery even lighter...

We can debate the pros and cons of different systems all night, but the fact that there are now lots of companies offering airbags is good news for consumers. Innovation, lighter weight, and lower prices should result (except for the Arc'teryx airbag rumoured to be out next winter, for a whopping 2,000 euros!).

Stay safe....
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
^ 100% agree : good on BD for innovating.
however I don't think the "jetforce" will rapidly change the market as Lou Dawson predicted on wild snow.
primarily because a compressed air cylinder can store a lot of energy in a small space too.
the comments at bottom of wild snow blog indicate that you should be able to fly with them - however rechargeable Li-IOn batteries do have some restrictions (much like small compressed air cylinders)
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Avalanche Academy wrote:

As for travelling with a LiIon battery, I don't work for an airline, but don't see why it would be an issue. You could even run it down so it's travelling uncharged. Any pilots reading this who can shed any light on whether that would be an issue ?? And who's to say they won't make the battery even lighter...


From the IATA table which I just printed out to carry with my Mammut bag, high capacity Li-ion batteries are subject to similar rules to cylinders, so you'll still need to tell the airline. Depending on the capacity you may need to carry it in your carry on luggage. If they are lower than 100Wh then it looks like there are no restrictions; I suspect the batteries would be below this but I've not seen any specs.
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It would be interesting to know the specs on the JetForce battery to see how it fits with the IATA regs.

The other thing that must be remembered is that the IATA regs were written for the current crop of airbags with cylinders and triggers, there is a little bit about pressure release values as well, I know that the Jetforce, like the others would not inflate without the battery or cylinder however the deflation method of the Jetforce is stated as being done by the battery.

If there are no manual pressure release values then does it meet the IATA regs?

Its taken approx 4 years for the airlines to understand avalanche rescue backpacks and it has become pretty easy to fly with them in Europe and most of the rest of the world, IMHO unless BD do alot of work with the airlines, then my guess is that it going to take a long time till security except these bags, hope I am wrong
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Quote:
I have yet to find any airbags at 2.5kg.


FWIW :
Mammut 30L RAS light pack with RAS airbag (=1.8kg) + carbon cylinder (=310g)
= 2.11kg total weight

http://www.mammut.ch/en/productDetail/261000710_v_0599_30/Light-Removable-Airbag.html

Though I agree that a circa 3kg pack is fine for most people / trips.
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livetoski wrote:


Its taken approx 4 years for the airlines to understand avalanche rescue backpacks and it has become pretty easy to fly with them in Europe and most of the rest of the world, IMHO unless BD do alot of work with the airlines, then my guess is that it going to take a long time till security except these bags, hope I am wrong


If the battery is compliant and the battery/fan unit disconnected what is there for airlines to object to? Genuine ignorance but are inflatable dinghies,lilos etc prohibited items? I always understood it was explosive triggers and compressed gases that were the issues (plus potential for inflation in confined space) not the bags themselves.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
fatbob wrote:
livetoski wrote:


Its taken approx 4 years for the airlines to understand avalanche rescue backpacks and it has become pretty easy to fly with them in Europe and most of the rest of the world, IMHO unless BD do alot of work with the airlines, then my guess is that it going to take a long time till security except these bags, hope I am wrong


If the battery is compliant and the battery/fan unit disconnected what is there for airlines to object to? Genuine ignorance but are inflatable dinghies,lilos etc prohibited items? I always understood it was explosive triggers and compressed gases that were the issues (plus potential for inflation in confined space) not the bags themselves.


According to this the battery is hard wired in, so not clear you can visibly disconnect it...

http://www.wildsnow.com/10670/jetforce-black-diamond-avalanche-airbag/
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Quote:

If the battery is compliant and the battery/fan unit disconnected what is there for airlines to object to? Genuine ignorance but are inflatable dinghies,lilos etc prohibited items? I always understood it was explosive triggers and compressed gases that were the issues (plus potential for inflation in confined space) not the bags themselves.


Yep it is the cylinder and the pyrotechnic trigger that caused the regulations to be written as well as the fact that its an airbag inside, there are similar regulations for life jackets. The regs are for avalanche rescue back packs that contain these items, it does not say currently avalanche rescue backpacks containing lithium batteries fans etc etc.

I maybe barking up the wrong tree with this, but at the end of the day its an "airbag" with all its workings inside

Quote:
Avalanche rescue backpack, one (1) per person, containing a cylinder of compressed gas in
Div. 2.2. May also be equipped with a pyrotechnic trigger mechanism containing less than
200 mg net of Div. 1.4S. The backpack must be packed in such a manner that it cannot be
accidentally activated. The airbags within the backpacks must be fitted with pressure relief
valves.
Quote:
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I think it is only expressly permitting avalanche backpacks with compressed air because they would otherwise be caught be the restriction on compressed air cylinders. Not sure there is a restriction on battery powered fans so an express permission is not needed
That's my take on it anyway
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Ski the Net with snowHeads
Not that I have an ounce of experience here, but I'd hazard two thoughts. First, if the JetForce takes off then the IATA regs wil fairly rapidly catch up - they were slow with air bags initially because they were novel and slightly mad-sounding, the Jetforce is just a variation. Secondly, I'd guess the mechanism of the JetForce would not look as suspicious to airport security as a pressurised cylinder/explosive trigger...I'd guess they're more likely to drift through security checks without raising any alarms.

Having said that, the Jetforce sounds like an interesting idea but I'd want it to prove itself for a season or two before I got tempted...
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