 Poster: A snowHead
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Thanks T-Bar. I joined a few days ago as we've started doing some stuff on dry slopes then I got a tummy bug and I haven't had much to do! I can't honestly say I've read every word on every post but I went through most of it. I was quite hoping for something that would change my point of view. Like when I sat on a chair lift and listened to a ski instructor tell me why he agreed with the ban on ski hosting. I'd been vehemently opposed to it up until then
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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It's certainly going to be a factor in who I vote for next year
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A similar move by this Government was requiring mandatory jail sentences for a second conviction for possession of a knife. The only opposition was from the Lib Dems and a handful of Labour and Conservative rebels who didn't think that sending huge numbers of people to jail (even if there were any spaces, which there aren't) was a cost effective way of using public funding and who thought sentencing decisions should be left to judges. I can't imagine there are too many teachers who are in favour of these new rules about Penalty Notices - the two in my immediate family (daughter and son in law) certainly aren't, but they are struggling with so many perpetual new Govian diktats (the exam system hasn't remained the same two years on the trot in my daughter's short career so far) that this one barely gets a thought.
However, I'll say it yet again. Take your kids away on a ski holiday in early January, when it's cheap and quiet. The chances of getting a Penalty Notice are slim, in most if not all LEAs and if you do pay a fine you'll still be quids in, and have enjoyed quiet slopes.
Not a biggie, really, is it?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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And snow Pam W. We,ve always had good snow, mostly no crowds and cheaper. You're right, a no brainer.
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This government has now found something else to legislate against - despite the advice to the contrary from a knowledgeable Select Committee and their own advisers.  http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-27921832
Worth noting that the Home Affairs Select Committee also opposed the mandatory jail sentence for second knife possession conviction.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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But pam w, The problem for quite a few family's that they can only afford to go during term time which means they do not have the money to pay a fine, which if not paid quickly then doubles. Then what send them to prison ( overcrowded as they are and at around 40k per person per year) Disrupt the family, cause distress to the family which really is not necessary as this in reality is quite a petty matter, the parents are not armed robbers or sex offenders etc.
Not all councils are the same and just because the majority would not take action does not mean all would not.
Example with the bedroom tax some councils chase people to the bitter end others have tried convincing pensioners they had to pay it when they did not, and yet others have done the absolute minimum contractually that they have to ie they take the person to court but do not turn up and loose by default.
The Gov have come in with a wrecking ball on this rather than with compassion, understanding and common sense. So is it really surprising that people are prepared to fight back with at least an equivalent wrecking ball ?
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Urrm, are you seriously suggesting people can afford to take what is quite an expensive holiday but can't afford to pay a fine? The suggestion is a mockery to people who are actually forced to live a fine away from real poverty and don't get to do anything remotely like swanning off to a foreign country to ski.
On a less related note a parents inability to budget and thus disrupt their family life is actually their own fault particularly if they knowingly break the law.
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meh,
Skiing like any holiday can be done to a budget maybe you have no money worries good for you but others may not be as well off.
Quite a few resorts offer deals for family lift passes accommodation is a lot cheaper in some resorts than others ( ie in small resorts/satellite compared to big named resorts ) and then again during term time cheaper still.
I could book a week skiing to include ferry/tunnel lift pass for four for 6 days and accommodation for 4 people for no more than a £1k.
I have friends who do really low paid work ie shop work and they spend that much and more on a summer holiday in the May holiday.
Paying £600 ( £60 per parent for one child for one week ) is a major expense never mind if for two or more children. They save all year do not go out drinking do not smoke they want to allow their kids to see new places experience different cultures and do things they never had the chance to do when they were kids. This level of fine has stopped them doing this and now they either do not go away at all or go camping for the odd day ( not cheap either these days ).
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Not all councils are the same and just because the majority would not take action does not mean all would not.
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But speed098, one of the strengths of a bureaucracy (it's not a dirty word) is that, in the same circumstances, people should be treated the same. All LEAs have been required to draw up a code of conduct setting out how Penalty Notices will work and to ensure some consistency. Have you read the Code of Conduct for your LEA? Most people, it seems, can't be arsed and have preferred to rely on the Daily Mail for their information.
Frankly, talk of "wrecking balls" is way OTT. and what do you mean by
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is it really surprising that people are prepared to fight back with at least an equivalent wrecking ball ?
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There's so much drama and indignation about this, it's completely disproportionate. As meh says, are you seriously suggesting that people who can afford to take a family skiing (which costs several thousand pounds) really couldn't "afford a fine"?
If you want to get on your high horse and take the fight to the government there are far more worthy windmills to tilt at.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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speed098, yes, skiing holidays are an expensive luxury and as yet not a right, particularly not on an annual basis. Lots of people can't afford them because they are scrimping and saving just so their kids can eat and live in a vaguely warm house. That isn't 'fair' either and possibly a bit more important than a family only being able to afford to go skiing abroad every other year rather than every year because their kids have to go to school.
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Paying £600 ( £60 per parent for one child for one week ) is a major expense never mind if for two or more children.
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Daily Mail again, speed098? How did you come to a sum of £600?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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pam w,
Not Daily Mail this from one council's own info on the subject so maybe you should check first before you brand people as only being willing to read and follow a tabloid.
"As well as losing the discretionary 10-day period, parents that are fined will also have less time to pay. From September 2013 the fines will be £60 per child per parent if paid within 21 days, and £120 if paid between 22 and 28 days. If the fine is not paid, parents will be reported for prosecution."
So one child x 5 days x 2 parents not really that hard a maths sum to work out so why do you need clarification?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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meh,
But equally this is not just about ski holidays it is about any time the family want together during school term time that they could not do be it for cost or work restraints. This could even include a family who have never had the money to go away and either get offered by a friend or relative the chance to use accommodation etc or they won a holiday. ( yes another extreme end but we would hope that this would fall under the exceptional but hope and actuality are not always mutual companions).
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And to really throw the cat among the pigeons lets think about when teachers strike. If the act of parliament states we are bound to ensure our children attend school so it goes the local authority are equally bound to ensure they provide that education so maybe they should ensure adequate cover during the teachers strike to keep to their contractual obligations and if not be fined.
Or are we all lemmings just doing what a few people who think they know best and actually know s*d all tell us to do ?
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You know it makes sense.
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£60 per child per parent
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= £120, not £600. Where did you read that the fine is per day? And in the document from which you quote, what does it say about the circumstances in which a Penalty Notice can be issued?
The legislation on education and school attendance does not set up any "contractual obligations".
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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meh, I don't think we're looking for sympathy. I can afford a skiing holiday most years and some years we don't go. But we definitely couldn't go during school breaks. And the government has decided that we should not have any other choice. So I have to choose whether to obey the law or do what I think is right for my child. State of family?
As a middle class, once loyal Thatcherite, with strong views on rights and responsibilities and social opportunity, I am angered each time our government closes a way of getting on. My daughter's prospective employers are going to be far more interested in her skiing and other activities than they are in her junior school attendance. But this government have made it a legal requirement that her attendance comes first. So that job will go to someone with parents who can afford ski trips during the holidays. And the social order will continue. That same government does not appear to put any meaningful priority on gifted children (who could afford to miss some schooling and might benefit from the stimulation of an activity holiday) receiving any special consideration. The point of the education is to get the best out of all children not just hit a common denominator. And, just to lob this one in, I don't think this piece of legislation applies to private schools. Please could someone prove me wrong on that one?
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Poster: A snowHead
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why not decide to do home schooling and start the week of your holiday and then a week (or 2) later change your mind and put them back in school?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| speed098 wrote: |
| And to really throw the cat among the pigeons lets think about when teachers strike. If the act of parliament states we are bound to ensure our children attend school so it goes the local authority are equally bound to ensure they provide that education so maybe they should ensure adequate cover during the teachers strike to keep to their contractual obligations and if not be fined. |
And could I just throw in bad weather days? If we can't get in, law broken ( well, actually I live opposite the school so not much excuse). If the headteacher closes the school, then half the area grinds to a halt because no one can go to work.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I don't think this piece of legislation applies to private schools. Please could someone prove me wrong on that one?
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no, I think you're right. But my understanding is that some - perhaps most - private schools have long been pretty strict about attendance.
I think you're over-reacting too, henzerani. Have you read the Code of Conduct applicable to your LEA? Most seem to allow for at least a week's "unauthorised absence" before any action is taken.
And as somebody who spent several years Chairing selection boards for Fast Stream entrance to the civil service I can assure you that whilst good employers are indeed interest in a range of qualities and skills, other than educational attainment, our decisions were in no way coloured by a candidate's having been taken on lots of ski holidays. Indeed, we wouldn't even have known that that was the case.
I recall one candidate writing on her application form, as evidence of her drive, that she started a baby-sitting service in a Swiss ski resort. That could, indeed, have provided evidence of drive - but when I probed this at interview it appeared that "Daddy had a chalet" and she and a girl friend, having free board and lodging, had made a few francs pocket money baby-sitting (quite possibly illegally) for other visiting Brits.  Nul points.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Just because no one cares later on what you did at junior school it doesn't mean that doing it was unimportant.
Very few people get jobs because they have the right hobbies. Let alone that being important in junior school.
It also seems people easily lean on the language of victimisation and 'this change inconveniences me' becomes 'the government is ruining my child's future/human rights'. Hyperbole really doesn't help the case it trivialises it further.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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pam w,
I took time to phone my local authority and ask them their stance/interpretation.
They said they could allow upto 5 days but that this was not guaranteed so in reality day one hey your fined if they so decide.
I asked about the fine they said it was £60 per child per adult per absence which they said was each days absence, I asked them to clarify this as I thought it meant each total absence ie if away for a trip then that trip they said NO ! it was per day as an absence is recorded each school day.
Now they may be trying it on they may not but the point is that is what they will do and you would have to fight that in court. It was pretty clear that although they can allow upto 5 days that they viewed it that it was at their discretion and so could fine you after day one if they wanted to. This leaves us the parents in a position of not knowing where we stand and also open to selective punishment maybe even discrimination.
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Another point not really raised yet some kids are just not academic achievers, they are instead very hands on they may make great builders, mechanics etc but equally they may become diving instructors, sailing instructors or even ski instructors.
Is our education system so dilapidated it can not recognise this and cater/adapt to the needs of these kids to allow them to be successful. Not every child will attain straight A* grades and some will not no matter how hard they study no matter how good their attendance even get above grade D. We have a duty as a society to help them achieve in fields they can achieve in, not the ones the state say they have to so as to tick the states "look how good we are box's).
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| speed098 wrote: |
Another point not really raised yet some kids are just not academic achievers, they are instead very hands on they may make great builders, mechanics etc but equally they may become diving instructors, sailing instructors or even ski instructors.
Is our education system so dilapidated it can not recognise this and cater/adapt to the needs of these kids to allow them to be successful. Not every child will attain straight A* grades and some will not no matter how hard they study no matter how good their attendance even get above grade D. We have a duty as a society to help them achieve in fields they can achieve in, not the ones the state say they have to so as to tick the states "look how good we are box's). |
This was the same argument that was put in an article in Planetski the other day:
http://www.planetski.eu/news/6061
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speed098, OK, so when you're in charge the thickos will be allowed holidays in term time on the basis that it doesn't matter how much school they miss and the bright little buttons will be required to attend school every day.
Hmm. Maybe Michael Gove is not as bad as I thought.
Which is your LEA?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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speed098, my school cours 1 day missed as 2 absences, one for morning registration on for afternoon. So Ellie has 1 absence due to missing first registration for a 9am doctors, in reality she barely missed any of the actual lessons.
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pam w, These kids are not thickos, I know plenty of people with degrees even first class honours who could not do half the stuff they do nor understand what they do, just the same as these as you put it thickos can not excel in exams. Neither group are thickos both groups will contain people who work hard and should be a credit to any parent.
If someone is not great academically why not be more flexible in what and how they learn, the same as someone who is incredibly academic is highlighted and can be advanced quicker taking exams years earlier for example.
And if I was in charge I would have schools make the decisions with the parents. That fines could be imposed but! the intention is to hopefully never have to impose a fine this simple wording really says work with us and no worries don't and yes we have legislation to deal with problems. I would have an education system that understands and can help kids who are more hands on rather than them have to wait till they finish school before being able to start learning( too much more to be able to go into in a post here but hopefully you will understand this is about helping each child the best the state can rather than forcing them down a single narrow path that may not suit them).
I have a few things being argued with the school council at present so other than to state they are very low down in any council rankings I would rather not name them till I have got other issues sorted. But believe me you would be shocked at some of the things they think they can do and have done here.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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speed098,
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If the act of parliament states we are bound to ensure our children attend school so it goes the local authority are equally bound to ensure they provide that education so maybe they should ensure adequate cover during the teachers strike to keep to their contractual obligations and if not be fined.
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The local authorities, or whoever, are certainly responsible for providing education and I think it's wrong the way that so many school days are lost due to supposedly bad weather, broken boilers, strikes and, daftest of all, INSET days. However, two wrongs don't make a right and their performance, or lack of it, has nothing to do with this issue. I'm sure you're welcome to sue them for failing in their duty, and I hope you get millions in compensation, but it really doesn't alter your own responsibilities under a different law.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| foxtrotzulu wrote: |
speed098,
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If the act of parliament states we are bound to ensure our children attend school so it goes the local authority are equally bound to ensure they provide that education so maybe they should ensure adequate cover during the teachers strike to keep to their contractual obligations and if not be fined.
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The local authorities, or whoever, are certainly responsible for providing education and I think it's wrong the way that so many school days are lost due to supposedly bad weather, broken boilers, strikes and, daftest of all, INSET days. However, two wrongs don't make a right and their performance, or lack of it, has nothing to do with this issue. I'm sure you're welcome to sue them for failing in their duty, and I hope you get millions in compensation, but it really doesn't alter your own responsibilities under a different law. |
I was not saying about suing them just highlighting the injustice and inequality our gov are all to ready to inflict on us. I was not even suggesting teachers could not strike but that when they do that the authority should by law be bound by the same act of parliament as us. Things like boiler breakdown could be a different matter if the authority do regular maintenance but if not then yes that would fall under the same rule of providing an education.
The whole point of all this no matter which side you prefer is that little thought has been put into the wording and implementation of these changes. A much better worded document with clearer guidelines/examples would have hopefully cleared most of the issues up, but as it stands too much is left to interpretation which easily leads to miss-interpretation.
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speed098, if you read the Code of Conduct you will see that, actually, the rules about when a PN can be issued are fairly prescriptive and detailed, though each LEA has adopted a slightly different approach. Any Notice NOT issued in compliance with the Code can be set aside. It is also likely to say that before a PN is issued there should be consideration of whether it is likely to be effective and what else can be done to help the child concerned attend more regularly.
As for whether the £60 is per Notice, or per Day, I think you would be better advised to read the Code of Conduct for your area (an easy google) than to have possibly confused conversations on the phone. If you are going to take on the LEA then you need to get your facts right.
I just looked up another LEA (Peterborough) at random and it says:
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Please be aware of new legislation for 2012 on attendance penalty notices and their charges.
When paid within 28 days of receiving the letter: £60 (per child)
When paid within 42 days of receiving the letter: £120 (per child)
Example: If 2 parents take 2 children on an unauthorised holiday then each parent will have to pay £120 if it is paid within 28 days (2 x £60= £120) or £240 if it is paid within 42 days (2 x £120). |
There is no suggestion that it is £60 per day for each child, for each parent, for each day of the holiday.
My use of "thicko" was, of course, ironic......
And I still think this is a bit of a fuss about nothing - we await concrete evidence of widespread hardship, abuse of human rights or abuse of process by LEAs.
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You know it makes sense.
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pam w,
This is the problem if you look at my post on Saturday at 18:50 for Leeds they state.
"As well as losing the discretionary 10-day period, parents that are fined will also have less time to pay. From September 2013 the fines will be £60 per child per parent if paid within 21 days, and £120 if paid between 22 and 28 days. If the fine is not paid, parents will be reported for prosecution."
So if two councils have different interpretations how do we the parents really know where we stand on this as each council could change it's interpretation easily between you booking a holiday and going on said holiday.
The fuss is about how this can be interpreted and the problems this can and probably will cause. I hope personally to never have to fight this with the local council but would rather have as much ammunition now and keep updating and adding to it just in case I have to.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I'm now personally interested in this as I'm currently trying to work out if/when I can bring my now school age nieces and nephews over to visit us in France, but the nature of my job is such that I'm at my absolute busiest during school holidays and would have no room at the inn, so I wouldn't spend any time with them at all - they might as well not be here. A 600 pound fine per child for my siblings is unthinkable however! I love and miss them all very much but…!!!
speed098, on this Leeds City Council site http://www.leeds.gov.uk/news/pages/New-legislation-signals-an-end-to-holidays-in-term-time.aspx they state:
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For a penalty notice to be requested, a child must have been absent from school for five days in the same term or period of 12 weeks. If a penalty notice is issued, it will cover the whole period of the absence. So the fine would be the same amount for an absence of five days or 10 days. For example, a parent could be issued with a £60 fine for a child missing one day of school every week over a five week period, whilst another parent might be issued the same fine for a two week block of absence.
As well as losing the discretionary 10-day period, parents that are fined will also have less time to pay. From September 2013 the fines will be £60 per child per parent if paid within 21 days, and £120 if paid between 22 and 28 days. If the fine is not paid, parents will be reported for prosecution. |
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Poster: A snowHead
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miranda,
This is the point one authority interprets one way another yet a different way. I used the Leeds example because of the time scale they give for payment which was different to the one that pam w, later posted from another authority.
How many interpret the amount of fine as being per parent per holiday and how many per parent per day maybe we will never know and which one is right in their interpretation because most likely both will argue very strongly that their interpretation is the correct one.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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each council could change it's interpretation easily between you booking a holiday and going on said holiday
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no they couldn't. Once they have published the Code of Conduct they have to stick to it.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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speed098,
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I hope personally to never have to fight this with the local council but would rather have as much ammunition now and keep updating and adding to it just in case I have to.
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I'm not sure that's going to help you very much. It would be a bit like a burglar saying "I wouldn't have committed the offence if I'd know you were going to change the sentencing guidelines".
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miranda, are your nephews and nieces in Leeds? The situation there is confusing. This newspaper article seems to reflect a misunderstanding http://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/news/latest-news/top-stories/leeds-at-odds-with-gove-on-school-holiday-rules-1-6115016
all the Codes of Conduct I have looked at effectively give some "free unauthorised days" before a Penalty Notice can be issued (which doesn't mean to say it will be). Most will take no action on 5 days absence but a careful reading of the material about Leeds suggests that 4 is the maximum, with Penalty Notices being issued for "5 days and over". So that's not "defying Gove", as I see it - it's actually quite hawkish. However the paper's suggestion that this means parents have 15 days to play with seems quite wrong - they are combining the old 10 days with the new 5 (sic, actually 4) days but the latter supplants the former - Heads no longer have discretion for 10 days in term time, as they had for many years. Normal sloppy reporting, I suppose, which is why it's best not to rely on press reports on this issue.
Leeds seems to have issued a lot of fines - see http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/main-topics/education/leeds-parents-soak-up-the-fines-for-term-time-holidays-1-6511413
What we don't know, of course, is the nature of the cases which have given rise to these fines - as lots of people in this thread have noted there are many, many, kids who have loads of "unauthorised absences". When my daughter was teaching A level philosophy two years ago - not the easiest subject - one girl turned up no more than half a dozen days in the year! When she failed, of course, that was a black mark against the teacher.
If "your" kids have a good attendance record I'd suggest their parents have a word with the class teacher about the circumstances and the impossibility of your hosting them in holiday time. When my daughter in law did this (with a much less good reason) she found the school helpful, though she'd been very concerned initially.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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feef, she appears to have sent it to the wrong address as it's been printed by a paper! 
Reads like a parent with a chip on their shoulder TBH which the intentional distribution rather confirms.
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Our first daughter starts school this September. We normally spend a whole month skiing each season as a family in Canada and it's a great time for everyone - a true escape from mundane life in Towcester! In fact it's the only time we really spend together as a family. Next year we will still be going, but will take part of the trip over Easter so she will take 2 weeks out of school. If we get prosecuted for it, I think we'll leave the country for good.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Thanks Boris very useful info. It looks like 10 days may be the "critical mass" for issuing a penalty. So be it then.
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uktrailmonster, is a suggested trigger - but I suspect that mitigating factors of good attendence etc may mean nothing is done.
While they may well say no - would still be worth writing a letter to school to outline your plans.
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FAQ
