 Poster: A snowHead
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There are a lot of issues that those who brought in the new rules have not considered, an example we recently got was the school sending letters home for our son about classes during this holiday period and which lessons he was "required" to attend as they are doing their exams.
Now we try and support the school fully but these letters came with a day to go before end of term, and our son had already organised his holiday period and to be honest we are not going to make him go to these lessons because he has had a lot of pressure from some staff at the school and really needs time to de-stress before going back and doing his final exams. But if schools don't want you taking kids out of school then why the ell are they then wanting kids to go in during holidays. We had this at Easter as well even after telling staff we where actually abroad for Easter they still wanted him to go in.
The school is putting enormous pressure on kids there, way more than anyone their age should have to deal with and making us and our son feel as though we have no right to even go away during holidays. It has got that bad that now we don't care if we take him out of school because his health is more important. Yes we did take time off during school time in the past but with the full support of the school, now we will do it with or without their support.
It is a shame it is going this way but these people need to sort themselves out either school time is school time and holidays are family time, or scrap the system they have now and if they want kids in school during holiday periods fine.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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NickyJ, I'm not sure I understand the issue here. If school are telling you not to bring her in then they are clearly authorising the absence.
Whether it is sensible to ease her into the schedule gently is another question altogether. I suspect that the policy is borne out of years of experience and, even if it is disruptive for you and your daughter, is probably the right approach in general. I do remember it was a complete pain for us as we just seemed to get back home from the school run before turning around to go back and collect her
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Shimmy Alcott,
That was in the Fail as well so it must be true.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Good !
Thanks for posting that Shimmy Alcott,
I wish I had seen this as I would have signed it as well, it is long past due that politicians realised they are not in power but here to serve.
I hope it is successful but also that it is "encouraged" to think before taking children out of school and discuss openly with the school. This hopefully will reduce any possible class disruption. It has to be a two way process not one side dictating to the other and S.O.D them attitude, which to me seems to be the only attitude our MP's know.
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I´ve just learnt that elder son has been invited to go on a school trip for a day, as a reward for "high ATL and attainment students". Of course we´ve said he can go (and paid for him). But how much more educational is a trip to the Harry Potter studios than the opportunity to go skiing?
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None, and that is one of the issues parents have
Whilst schools can elect to take "educational" absences at their discretion but we cannot do so.
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my daughter is having a full day of ceramics next week - just before her exams start, as part of the Art Gifted & Talented programme she is on
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Shimmy Alcott, is that a problem?
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RobW,
As you might expect, I'm all in favour of skiing but I went with the family to the Harry Potter Studios a couple of weekends ago. I was impressed - it gives you a real insight into how movies are made and the spectacular, almost insane, attention to detail that went in to those productions. I think it is quite inspiring - gives children (and adults) a real sense of just how much commitment as well as talent is required. I actually think it probably IS more educational than a day skiing. Of course, my kids do spend some days in school which I think are LESS educational than a day skiing which is a whole other story...
J
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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In February 2014 our local council (East Lothian) had the half-term a week earlier than most other Scottish and English councils. This meant the costs were much more reasonable than going a week later. In 2015 it seems that all the Scottish and English LAs are aligned with half-term dates. Complete and utter stupidly. Spreading it out over a 4 week period would make much more sense.
I've booked to go the week before half-term and I'll be telling the school what I am doing. I have no qualms about doing this. My son is bright and won’t suffer one bit. My wife is a primary school teacher and she has no issues with letting him miss a week. Her view is that if you are going to miss a week then the week before a holiday is best to choose as most schools wind down on those weeks. Thankfully Scotland hasn’t adopted the Fixed Penalty process so I won’t get a letter through the door.
However, there are some totally irresponsible parents out there. One girl in my wife’s primary 4 class has been off for almost 3 weeks for a wedding in the Caribbean. It should have only been 2 weeks but after arriving back last Tuesday she was ‘jetlagged’ and could not come in! The child is not the most intelligent in the class and in my wife’s opinion will have suffered by being off for 3 weeks.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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That trip to the harry Potter studios may well have some educational benefit but trips to the Pleasure beach at Blackpool or Alton Towers are not, parents would not be allowed to take kids out of school for the day to go to those places. But when parents want to immerse their children in a new/different culture go to world heritage sites they are being told no it will be unauthorised then the system is a total joke.
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| Hells Bells wrote: |
| Shimmy Alcott, is that a problem? |
no, I gave the school permission for her to attend - given her enjoyment of such things and that she performs well enough in school anyway. Im raising a child not a Government tick box tool.
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You know it makes sense.
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Shimmy Alcott, glad to hear it 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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speed098,
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But when parents want to immerse their children in a new/different culture go to world heritage sites they are being told no it will be unauthorised then the system is a total joke.
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While I don't necessarily agree with these daft school jaunts to Thorpe Park I do think your complaint above is slightly off the mark. I have no doubt at all that the school, the Gov't and Michael Gove in person, would congratulate any parent for immersing their children in a new/different culture. However, I rather suspect they might point out that this is what school holidays are for. It's a bit like arguing that your boss is being unreasonable when he expects you come in to work in the morning instead of lying on a beach. Is it unreasonable of him to expect you to lie on a beach during your holiday entitlement instead of work time?
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Wed 28-05-14 15:56; edited 1 time in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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ansta1,
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Whilst schools can elect to take "educational" absences at their discretion but we cannot do so.
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Would you expect the school to have the power to insist your child attends when they choose during the school holidays?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| foxtrotzulu wrote: |
ansta1,
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Whilst schools can elect to take "educational" absences at their discretion but we cannot do so.
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Would you expect the school to have the power to insist your child attends when they choose during the school holidays? |
No, the key part of that is their (as in the schools) determination of "educational". Absolutely some of these are positive, interesting and educational but not all of them may be and it's the very fact that they and they alone can make that determination. I can also see the other side, I don't really think that the average skiing holiday or foreign jaunt really provides significant immersion in the culture or educational benefit to justify it on that basis alone.
Either way it's a pointless argument for me as the OH is a teacher so I am forever tied in to non term time holidays, but I never let a pointless argument stop me from arguing.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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ansta1,
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but I never let a pointless argument stop me from arguing.
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Wouldn't life be dull if it did!
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| foxtrotzulu wrote: |
ansta1,
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but I never let a pointless argument stop me from arguing.
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Wouldn't life be dull if it did! |
It would certainly be a lot quieter round these parts.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Gaza wrote: |
| ...Spreading it out over a 4 week period would make much more sense.... |
I'm with you on that, in the hope that (1) family ski holidays become more affordable at a time when schools are on holiday, but also (2) that it would spread the demand for ski lessons in the UK so that there would be 4 weeks of mid-week employment for instructors, rather than one week of exceptional demand. Same goes for other child entertaiment venues I guess.
Of course (1) may be dreaming, but we are not keen on taking our kids out during term time, and Feb 1/2 term prices are generally out of our league.
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For those who missed this report - Feel free to make of it what you will. I dare say we will disagree on much of this article, but I hope we can all agree that the final paragraph (which may/may not be related to term-time holidays) does represent a significant step forward.
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School attendance rates have hit an eight-year high following a Government crackdown on parents taking a term time holiday, it has emerged.
Provisional figures show that around 65,000 more children were in classes every day during the autumn term last year – just as Michael Gove introduced tough rules on breaks during school hours.
In all, some 4.3 per cent of lesson time was lost as a result between September and December – the equivalent of 258,700 pupils missing school every day. It was down from 5.2 per cent – 323,600 pupils – at the same point in 2012.
Data released by the Department for Education showed that the overall proportion of days missed due to family holidays also dropped – from 0.5 to 0.4 per cent.
But it means that some 24,000 pupils were still absent every day as a result of a term time break, with around a quarter of these officially sanctioned by the school.
It suggests that some schools are continuing to ignore the Education Secretary’s warning.
Under new guidance issued to schools across England, heads are prevented from giving parents up to 10 days discretionary leave during term time, apart from "exceptional circumstances" such as family bereavement.
The move was designed to keep children in school and drive up overall attendance rates.
Ministers have also introduced tougher fines for truancy, with parents being forced to pay £60 for allowing their children to skip school, up from £50. Late payments have escalated from £100 to £120.
Elizabeth Truss, the Education Minister, said: “Parents want to know that schools are tough on bad behaviour and that includes cracking down on absence.
“By increasing fines and encouraging schools to address the problem earlier, huge progress is being made. These figures suggest the number of children on course to be persistently absent has fallen by 44 per cent since 2010.
“There is still more to do and we are determined to further help schools reduce absence and improve behaviour.”
The DfE published data on Thursday morning but later released a statement saying the official figures had been withdrawn because a number of schools had been missing from the figures.
However, in a statement, the DfE said it did "not expect the error to have a significant impact on the rates of absence or the main trends quoted".
According to the figures, absence rates stood at 4.3 per cent in the autumn term, down from 5.2 per cent a year earlier and 6.1 per cent in 2010.
It was the lowest figure since termly absence data was first collected in 2006.
Among primary schools, 3.9 per cent of lesson time was lost compared with 4.7 per cent a year earlier and 5.6 per cent in 2010 when the Coalition government was formed.
In secondary schools, the absence rate stood at 4.9 per cent, compared with 5.7 per cent a year earlier and 6.7 per cent in 2010.
The number of children classed as “persistent absentees” – those missing 15 per cent of lesson time – also plummeted from 6.4 to 4.6 per cent. It meant 278,305 pupils were classified, down from 396,450 in 2012.
The move came after the Government reclassified habitual truants as those who miss 15 per cent of school days rather than 20 per cent under Labour – catching them earlier. |
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foxtrotzulu, the final paragraph is encouraging although I doubt it has anything to do with the change in regs and more to do with earlier intervention.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Boris,
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foxtrotzulu, the final paragraph is encouraging although I doubt it has anything to do with the change in regs and more to do with earlier intervention.
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Quite possibly. I think it's all wrapped up in the same thing with a clear message being given out that the limit of 'acceptable' absence has been changed from 'special circumstances' to 'exceptional circumstances' and from 20% absence to 15% absence.
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foxtrotzulu, previously teh acceptable absence approval for holidays was for kids with greater than 95% - so under the old rules the persistent truants wouldn't be allowed time off - but probably went in any case.
I'm glad that the persistent truant figures is decreasing, but still of the view that the new guidelines have nothing to do with it and have just alienated millions of parents who generally make sure tehir child is in school but take the odd day here and there.
But we won't agree I'm sure 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I am not going to get into debate about the rights / wrongs but I've just been forwarded this link via 38degrees who have run a number of petitions for all sorts of things http://parentswantasay.co.uk/. It may be of interest to some.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Boris,
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But we won't agree I'm sure
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Of course not!
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previously teh acceptable absence approval for holidays was for kids with greater than 95%
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I can't say I really understand this. What you're saying is that children with 95% or better would be allowed to take up to 10 days term-time holiday. The extra ten days is equivalent to another 5.2% potentially bringing their attendance down to 89.8%. That is well on the way to the 85% that would now have you identified as a persistent truant. Have I misunderstood something?
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foxtrotzulu, I can only speak for my children's school - the guidelines there were max of 10-days for children with 95%+ in the previous academic year, and based on view of teacher that tehy would catch up.
If we had taken a full 10-days then yes I would assume that a request the following year would ahve been turned down - however when we have taken them it was only for a week - so approx 2.6% so were still well within the 95%+ if we required the following year. I agree with your figures, but those were the guidelines then. IMV they were fair and understood.
Personally I think 10 days a year would be excessive, but have no problem taking them out for a week skiing during Primary school.
I won't be doing it again now they are all at Secondary - not as a result of change in rules - but as we feel a week missed now is more critical. I will however take them out for the odd day should I deem it appropriate.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
Dear fellow petition supporters,
As you know, a small group of us handed the petition in to the Department for Education on Wednesday 30th October and the topic received lots of media coverage in the following weeks, with far more support shown for our position than for the government’s.
We also know that up and down the country parents have been writing to their MPs and the Department for Education, speaking to their local schools and newspapers, actively engaging with each other on Facebook and twitter and setting up a range of petitions on the 10 Downing St website.
HAS ANYTHING CHANGED?
No. A civil servant sent an email to say that we are all legally obliged to send our children to school and that Ministers are too busy with other correspondence to reply. As you can imagine, we find this response completely unacceptable. In fact, we are so incensed by this arrogant dismissal of the concerns raised by so many of us that we are doubly determined to fight this.
SO WHAT NEXT?
I have formed a new group called Parents Want A Say to keep the campaign going and truly make a difference. We now have a New launched:
Website: www.parentswantasay.co.uk
Facebook Page: www.facebook.com/parentswantasay
Twitter Account: @Parentswantasay
The battle continues, our next steps are:
1. Obtaining formal legal opinion on the legality of the process
2. Undertaking a thorough review of the evidence on which the Department for Education based its policy – evidence which we believe to be deeply flawed
3. Lobbying MPs, government, political parties and the education establishment
4. Keeping the topic alive & the pressure up in the media
5. Helping collate, co-ordinate and communicate actions and campaigns by other parents & grandparents across the country.
WHAT ARE WE DOING NOW?
In discussions with two big travel & leisure industry groups who would like to work with us on this campaign.
Collating statistical data & legal data to help us understand the strongest grounds for challenging the Dept for Education.
Looking to take a case to Judicial Review on the grounds of this policy being a breach of our human rights.
Ongoing contact with the media for a steady stream of coverage.
Ramping up support on social media.
HOW CAN YOU HELP?
Visit our brand new website (www.parentswantasay.co.uk)
“Sign Up” so we can keep you informed of what we are doing
We need to do more, however we need proper funding in order for us to make real change happen. If you can then donations will be gratefully accepted, no amount is too small. Reports, data, and expert advice can be expensive, which means asking for donations from everyone who wants to see this ridiculous law changed is something what we have to ask. If you of you would like to help us please go to our website and click on the “Donate” link”
Keep sending us all the information you have gathered from Freedom of Information requests, local schools, authorities etc.
Ask your MP whether they support the petition and let us know what they say.
Please keep building the campaign by asking people to sign the petition: it won’t make any immediate difference to the Department for Education but it will mean we will be able to keep more people in touch with what we’re doing.
Thank you!
Yours determinedly,
Craig Langman,
Founder of Parents Want A Say
& Creator of the Change the School Attendance Policy Petition. |
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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It's not as simple as just a 'holiday' though. I'm hoping to take my son to the Alliance Francaise next summer to start learning French. A trip to France would aid his learning of that language in addition to learning to ski. How would a week skiing in France be less education than French classes and PE in a school in the UK?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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feef, The cultural or linguistic benefits of a week's skiing are, in 99% of cases, minimal. Regarding the summer trip you mentioned to Alliance Francaise I am sure everyone would think that a great idea. The issue is not whether it is a good or bad idea, the question is why you don't take him during the school holidays like everyone else. You get 13 weeks a year in which you can cram all manner of wonderful educational stuff if you wish, so why pick the holidays?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Mr Gove believes the few days taken off for a term time ski trip would have an adverse, if not significantly detremental, effect on the GCSE grades outcome of any naughty pupil. (Bless him!!)
Now that the UK education system is ranked 28 in the world (a significant drop since Mr Gove became the DFEE's top dog), rather than focussing on the real factors effecting educational excellence (creative schools, creative teachers, and a creative curriculum), his myopic data-led/criterea-based/assessment driven/robo-schooling has produced one million under 24 year olds without a job. (Bless him again).
(All of the above is without prejudice, mi' lud, alledgedly  )
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| foxtrotzulu wrote: |
| feef, The cultural or linguistic benefits of a week's skiing are, in 99% of cases, minimal. Regarding the summer trip you mentioned to Alliance Francaise I am sure everyone would think that a great idea. The issue is not whether it is a good or bad idea, the question is why you don't take him during the school holidays like everyone else. You get 13 weeks a year in which you can cram all manner of wonderful educational stuff if you wish, so why pick the holidays? |
Alliance Francaise isn't a trip, it's an organisation that teaches French and provides information and education about French culture, and has groups in most major cities.
The question can equally be, if he's getting an education, does it matter if he's getting it in a classroom or elsewhere? If I was home-schooling him I could take him anywhere at any time, so why not within the school system?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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skimastaaah, noice post
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skimastaaah, I think you will find that the independent panel of education experts rather than MG found that reduced attendance had a detrimental effect and that even small amounts of absence had an effect.
I'm delighted you are are so clear in what the fundamental problems of the UK education system are. I was interested as to why you don't think school attendance is an issue, bearing in mind our attendance rate is significantly worse than the OECD average and, in one study, up to 20 times worse than many countries such as Japan, Netherlands, Iceland, China etc.
Your solution to this problem is quite innovative - just send your children to school less.
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feef, I presumed you meant taking him to the Alliance Francaise IN France. So, while I think we can all agree that the a trip to France might, but not necessarily, be more educational than a normal week in school you still haven't explained why you can't do it during the school holidays. Is there some unwritten rule that says anything educational has to be done during the term? There is also the small matter of what your son would otherwise be doing during the week. I assume he'd also be doing All the other subjects too? Do you then expect the teacher to try and catch up with him individually? Or if you think he can just learn it all from books then I presume you don't think teachers are necessary at all.
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| foxtrotzulu wrote: |
| feef, I presumed you meant taking him to the Alliance Francaise IN France. So, while I think we can all agree that the a trip to France might, but not necessarily, be more educational than a normal week in school you still haven't explained why you can't do it during the school holidays. Is there some unwritten rule that says anything educational has to be done during the term? There is also the small matter of what your son would otherwise be doing during the week. I assume he'd also be doing All the other subjects too? Do you then expect the teacher to try and catch up with him individually? Or if you think he can just learn it all from books then I presume you don't think teachers are necessary at all. |
I'm not suggesting it can all be learned from books but at 4 years old I'm pretty confident that, for one week, I could ensure he catches up in our own time. It's not like he's missing out a week of GCSE Maths or A Level physics.
Equally, I'm not suggesting it's more educational than a week in school, but it's certainly not significantly less educational if it's done properly.
My question isn't about whether it CAN be done during holidays, my question is why, if they remain in education throughout, does the location of the education matter?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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skimastaaah, if you are referring to the PISA studies then I think you may have noticed that while the UK is around the 28 mark it has not changed by even a single place since the previous test in 2009. I'm not sure you can lay much of the blame at MG's door. In fact, you might do better to blame John Denham or Ed Balls.
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| foxtrotzulu wrote: |
| skimastaaah, if you are referring to the PISA studies then I think you may have noticed that while the UK is around the 28 mark it has not changed by even a single place since the previous test in 2009. I'm not sure you can lay much of the blame at MG's door. In fact, you might do better to blame John Denham or Ed Balls. |
consider, then, that according to the PISA studies, Scotland does marginally better than England in most subjects, and yet Scotland has a higher rate of pupil absenteeism.
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FAQ
