 Poster: A snowHead
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| Richard_Sideways wrote: |
| Snowboarders don't come into it.... |
So why are you posting on this?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Richard_Sideways, Nope I think we're testing the pole/no pole paradigm so we should also test a selection of snowboarders/bladers/snobikers with and without. boarders will appreciate the poles on the flat and around mazes and their cornice whacking, bro tapping and identification of remote lines that they could definitely straightline and airs they'd stomp no problem will be vastly enhanced. After all there are plenty of boarders (& skiers) who carry around stupid gopro poles for no other purpose than looking a gurning prick on youtube.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Richard_Sideways,
I think you're just flat wrong. No evidence for it, but I think my lack of evidence trumps your lack of evidence.
Actually, that said, I blade way faster and am more stable on crap surfaces with my blading poles than without.
So I at least have anecdote on my side,
You on the other hand can't acually manage to slide without cricking your neck to get a full 180 field of vision.
I believe that's Top Trump to me.
I am also holding the Countach in the Supercar pack and I bet you don't have the only card that will trump it.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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fatbob, I've tried using a pole and, quite frankly, its just weird - more trouble than its worth...
Oh and as for new developments in poleing? BEHOLD!
FOUR WHEEL DRIVE FOR SKI POLES EH!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I board with poles. Ok, they're just strapped to my backpack, but they're there, goddamnit. I think skiers should strap their poles to their backpacks all day; they'd look way gnarlier.
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Harrison Le Lapin, Oh goodie.... are we going to re-open the debate about the relative merits (or not) of availing oneself of second hand and somewhat unbalanced poles....? 
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If you don't carry poles, what do you use to spear snowboarders when you find them all sitting across the trail, just over the next roller?
(A quick dab to the nape of the neck. It's quick and painless. Quite humane, really).
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Schuss in Boots, surely it was just a fact, not a debate. But I'd no idea you were Polish. 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Right enough dicking around - can we get back to the original purpose of this thread which was having a proper barney about how essential pole plants are in a variety of circumstances.
Starter for 10
From observation of various levels of intermediate skier I'd say all instruction systems are fundamentally flawed in their timing of introduction of pole use (i.e punters need some clue as to what they're for before they drop out of instruction entirely).
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Very useful for spearing/hooking something you might have dropped in the snow. Saves all that painful bending...
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Harrison Le Lapin, Just call me Mr Sheen.... 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
From observation of the responses in this thread I'd say all instruction systems are fundamentally flawed in their timing of introduction of pole use (i.e punters need some clue as to what they're for before they drop out of instruction entirely).
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fatbob, FIFY
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You know it makes sense.
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fatbob, FWIW I think you will find that pole planting is encouraged (though its a very hostile environment for anything to start growing........Oops.....sorry!!  ) from the start of instruction, I can remember vividly calls to plant my pole and to ski around it. Indeed, I've never had a lesson that hasn't mentioned them. However, I think that learners are very focussed on what their skis are doing, and the extra coordination required to work in hands just didn't happen for me. I might check and see if my kids pole plant, to see if its just an adult learner thing.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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fatbob, +1
Essential
- bumps (while you can ski them without, it is not trivial) NB I mean skiing bumps properly - fall line, avalement, etc.
- powder
- slalom
- proper steeps requiring 100% commitment to turns
Not essential
- anything else[/b]
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Poster: A snowHead
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under a new name, I don't consider pole plants essential for slalom.
I spend a fair bit of time carrying stuff while I'm skiing and find that I don't ski differently without poles than I do with.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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under a new name, and is this:
| Quote: |
Not essential
- anything else
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Is why I have never ended up doing them until this point?
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Fri 17-05-13 14:09; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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rjs, really? not even for pole deflection? (my view on technique is a little out of date...)
Megamum, ummm, I am going to venture the suggestion that you haven't (yet) skied bumps fall line, powder (deep), SL or slopes steep enough that once you're 40% into the turn you have to complete it or it's going to hurt.
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under a new name, that would be an entirely fair assessment, and I take on board the implication that in order to progress that far (should I want to) that it is a necessary skill to learn. In fact many instructors., I think, would argue that developing the skill can benefit the 'anything else' skiing too - which is why I am encouraged to learn how to do it at every juncture.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
Essential
- bumps (while you can ski them without, it is not trivial) NB I mean skiing bumps properly
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Definitely ... after all you can't stab the dwarves in the foot, then punch him the face, unless you have poles 
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... or was that just the instructors I've had?
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and what do you kill the snow snakes with?
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| Quote: |
and what do you kill the snow snakes with?
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Don't think any of my instructors have ever taught me how to deal with snow-snakes! Tell me more!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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abj, you know - the little blighters that are apt to sling their coils around your skis, tip you over and then disappear without you realising what caused the fall. I'm sure they nest in mounds of snow, and apparently a good way forwards is to stab your pole into the centre of their coils before they get a chance to do something mean with them. Or so I hear
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Megamum, makes perfect sense 
The dwarves I mentioned are the ones that stand on the top of each mogul (at least in my minds-eye) - a good stab in the foot with your pole, followed by a moderate punch in the face with the same hand, seems to work for me when trying to get my pole-plants right in bumps!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Megamum,
from the start of instruction, I can remember vividly calls to plant my pole and to ski around it.
Consider this:
Skis have a turning radius. Typically 12-15 m for a holiday ski.
The radius of a circle is the distance from the circumference to center.
From that it is fairly obvious that you won't be placing the pole at the center of the circle described by your skis unless you skid the turn so much that it's done with the skis nearly pointing at the pole.
It is often stated that the pole plant is the initiating action of the turn. More accurately it is the signal to change edges and initiate the turn.
After the turn is initiated, the skier has the support of the skis and can unplant the pole ready for the next turn on that side.
Assuming carved turns, how much do you think a skier is 'skiing round the pole' ?
In my stunningly arrogant and probably mistaken opinion, "Ski around the pole" would be useful advice if teaching short skidded turns to cope with steep terrain. The definition of 'steep' will vary according to the pupils' ability and attitude. I don't think that is advice that is appropriate in all situations.
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thirty06, I didn't say I agree with the instruction, but that is very much what I got told when I started. At the time I wondered about the geometry of the instruction for precisely the reason you state. Just because I remember being told that it doesn't mean that I actually did it! I sometimes think that some instructions aren't meant to be taken literally, but are meant instead to convey a general idea - 'skiing around a pole' is probably one that is not meant to be taken literally in every scenario. I must admit I tend to take a lot of what I am told and stick it through a common sense filter and not only in skiing (as the midwifery team found out 13 years ago!)
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You know it makes sense.
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| thirty06 wrote: |
| Assuming carved turns, how much do you think a skier is 'skiing round the pole' ? |
But that's an incorrect assumption. "skiing" =\= "carving"
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Megamum wrote: |
| ... I sometimes think that some instructions aren't meant to be taken literally, but are meant instead to convey a general idea - 'skiing around a pole' is probably one that is not meant to be taken literally in every scenario. |
Perhaps the instructor's English wasn't good enough to accurately describe what he/she meant?
When I'm introducing the pole plant I specifically state that we DON'T stick it in the snow and turn around it. It is more like a pole 'tap' on the snow, which is the trigger to begin the next turn.
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Poster: A snowHead
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rob@rar, I was first instructed in by someone Swiss who didn't have a huge amount of English - so maybe you are right.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I can get about without them but given the choice and all that!
I reckon beginners/early intermediates don't really use or see the need for pole plants because they don't really use their edges that much and ski with a more steered nature with skis fairly flat, there's no big extremes of edge changing going on etc. so timing is not so important.
As we get better and start to use the edges more or move from one turn to another quicker, timing becomes a lot more important imo and though not essential I think it really helps to have a get ready to move switch when these edge changes/direction change become more extreme. Ranges from a big stab to a small touch or even a slight hand movement depending on the pitch of the slope or how fast you are moving.
Having said all that a know a level two who can pole plant but chooses not to most of the time! 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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gatecrasher, If it's on piste and it's only about timing not function, no reason to plant if the person can make that timing in their head. I hope BASI doesn't mark candidates down on it as that would be Form over Function and a repression of personal style
Of course letting the hands go back can contribute to getting generally backseat etc etc.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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fatbob, I have to say he doesn't do too badly without it on or off! 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I think this description sums it up - relating to planting in powder, but relevant to plants in all conditions
| Quote: |
Plant, plant, plant….
The final ingredient at the moment is the pole plant. .... The pole plant has a host of positive effects. That third point of contact and feedback from the hill really aids balance – make your pole plant strong. The plant also helps create a rhythm to the run – say boom every time you plant left, bang when you plant right and create a beat. The plant also comes at a critical time as the skis change direction.
Make sure you plant at the junction or ‘transition’ between turns. Finally, the pole creates a block to stabilize the upper body as you rotate your legs into the new turn. Imagine during the turn, you have wound your body up as you rotate your lower body whilst keeping your upper body facing down the hill. Now stabilize the upper body through the plant and the lower body will naturally uncoil. This torque effect or ‘anticipation’ makes leg rotation a cinch. |
http://mountaintracks.co.uk/blog/how-perfect-short-radius-powder-turns
OK - I appreciate that pure carving doesn't rely on planting, but hey: you're not carving at all times and this is a solid technique to add to your skill set.
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| gatecrasher wrote: |
As we get better and start to use the edges more or move from one turn to another quicker, timing becomes a lot more important imo and though not essential I think it really helps to have a get ready to move switch when these edge changes/direction change become more extreme. Ranges from a big stab to a small touch or even a slight hand movement depending on the pitch of the slope or how fast you are moving. |
I think this is quite a good point. I've spent so much time skiing with poles/so little without, that when I make a plant, everything else for the turn 'just happens,' without thinking about it, reflexively. Take away the pole, I seem to have to actually think a bit about what to do when, and will be less smooth/co-ordinated as a result.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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So Mr Ligety reckons they are useful for GS (on piste) and powder, but not Super G. Anyone like to tell him he is wrong?
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Thornyhill, feckin hack - he can't even keep within the basic FIS "rule" of always skiing in control
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FAQ
Yeah, usually on their backside! 
