 Poster: A snowHead
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simon_bates, off-piste Ski Club courses have professional ski instructors and guides on them.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Pedantica wrote: |
| simon_bates, off-piste Ski Club courses have professional ski instructors and guides on them. |
Ah OK. From reading the schedule I referred to, I was assuming that it was only the Thursday session that included a guide as that was specifically mentioned. Guess my assumption was wrong...that's the thing about assumptions!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Pedantica wrote: |
| simon_bates, off-piste Ski Club courses have professional ski instructors and guides on them. |
He's not referring to a "fresh tracks" course simon_bates is talking about the leaders programme for Monday morning which states "Introduction to off piste" with no mention of guides. I'd guess ed123 hit the mark with
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| other than saying 'when skiing off piste stop uphill of the leader' they don't teach off piste at all, or on piste. |
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If you're leading a group off piste, and they are new to it (hence "introduction to...") and a couple of them are struggling, it must be almost impossible not to offer some technique advice if you think it would help them.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| If you're leading a group off piste, and they are new to it (hence "introduction to...") and a couple of them are struggling, it must be almost impossible not to offer some technique advice if you think it would help them. |
And it wouldn't even break the law as free instruction is allowed. Ever skied with your mates off-piste and given a few tips to a weaker one to make him/her more stable? Or shall we ban that as well?
Personally, I think the Ski Club is falling victim to the anti British sentiment brought about by the influx of Brit instructors. Most of these Brit instructors have other lucrative careers (or feck off rich parents) and are just playing at being instructors. Some claim that this influx has increased competition, but in reality all these people have done is squeeze out the locals and upset the delicate balance of interests that exist in these mountain regions. I've never had a bad ESF instructor, but I've had plenty of bad British ones and I wouldn't say instruction has got any cheaper over the years.
Once again the Brits, backed up by EU laws, are fecking something up. By contrast I went to a new resort to me in Feb that remains largely undiscovered by the British, where all the local businesses are owned and run by the locals and there are no annoyingly English seasonaires vomiting in the streets on the night before their day off.
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| Quote: |
And it wouldn't even break the law as free instruction is allowed. Ever skied with your mates off-piste and given a few tips to a weaker one to make him/her more stable? Or shall we ban that as well?
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Except, as mentioned previously on this thread, this forms part of an organised activity, by a club, on the part of a recognised leader, which the french wuold class as "encadrement", and thus could well fall foul of french law.
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| nbt wrote: |
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And it wouldn't even break the law as free instruction is allowed. Ever skied with your mates off-piste and given a few tips to a weaker one to make him/her more stable? Or shall we ban that as well?
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Except, as mentioned previously on this thread, this forms part of an organised activity, by a club, on the part of a recognised leader, which the french wuold class as "encadrement", and thus could well fall foul of french law. |
'Could' being the operative word. The French need to decide if they want an organisation like the Ski Club, with its excellent safety record as well as its defined aim to promote safety, or not.
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| nbt wrote: |
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And it wouldn't even break the law as free instruction is allowed. Ever skied with your mates off-piste and given a few tips to a weaker one to make him/her more stable? Or shall we ban that as well?
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Except, as mentioned previously on this thread, this forms part of an organised activity, by a club, on the part of a recognised leader, which the french wuold class as "encadrement", and thus could well fall foul of french law. |
Yep, and my point is that instruction must go on at times whether "allowed" or not. I don't know how you'd successfully introduce someone to off-piste skiing (or even powder skiing on piste) without some instruction. Common novice mistakes might be turning too far out of the fall line or sitting back - it makes their progress almost impossible because they constantly fall, lose gear, get exhausted... the leader HAS to say something... surely.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| PJSki wrote: |
Personally, I think the Ski Club is falling victim to the anti British sentiment brought about by the influx of Brit instructors. Most of these Brit instructors have other lucrative careers (or feck off rich parents) and are just playing at being instructors. Some claim that this influx has increased competition, but in reality all these people have done is squeeze out the locals and upset the delicate balance of interests that exist in these mountain regions. I've never had a bad ESF instructor, but I've had plenty of bad British ones and I wouldn't say instruction has got any cheaper over the years.
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Nail on head.
Again, talking to ESF guide last night 'I don't have any problem at all with these guys as long as they are not paid'.
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| Quote: |
Personally, I think the Ski Club is falling victim to the anti British sentiment brought about by the influx of Brit instructors. Most of these Brit instructors have other lucrative careers (or feck off rich parents) and are just playing at being instructors. Some claim that this influx has increased competition, but in reality all these people have done is squeeze out the locals and upset the delicate balance of interests that exist in these mountain regions. I've never had a bad ESF instructor, but I've had plenty of bad British ones and I wouldn't say instruction has got any cheaper over the years.
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There are over 10,000 ESF ski instructors plus god only knows how many independent French moniteurs.
There are less than 200 British instructors who are qualified to work in France. Anyone who has got to that level has spent £20k+ and devoted a huge amount of time and effort.
The notion that British instructors are "taking all the work" from French instructors is just plain daft.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| stevomcd wrote: |
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Personally, I think the Ski Club is falling victim to the anti British sentiment brought about by the influx of Brit instructors. Most of these Brit instructors have other lucrative careers (or feck off rich parents) and are just playing at being instructors. Some claim that this influx has increased competition, but in reality all these people have done is squeeze out the locals and upset the delicate balance of interests that exist in these mountain regions. I've never had a bad ESF instructor, but I've had plenty of bad British ones and I wouldn't say instruction has got any cheaper over the years.
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There are over 10,000 ESF ski instructors plus god only knows how many independent French moniteurs.
There are less than 200 British instructors who are qualified to work in France. Anyone who has got to that level has spent £20k+ and devoted a huge amount of time and effort.
The notion that British instructors are "taking all the work" from French instructors is just plain daft. |
It doesn't matter what the truth is, it's what people believe that counts.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| PJSki wrote: |
| ...... I've never had a bad ESF instructor, but I've had plenty of bad British ones.... |
I've had poor ESF instructors - and some very good. For me, the best instructor I have ever had is English - easiski. But I can immediately think of an ESF instructor who came very close.
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You know it makes sense.
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| nbt wrote: |
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And it wouldn't even break the law as free instruction is allowed. Ever skied with your mates off-piste and given a few tips to a weaker one to make him/her more stable? Or shall we ban that as well?
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Except, as mentioned previously on this thread, this forms part of an organised activity, by a club, on the part of a recognised leader, which the french wuold class as "encadrement", and thus could well fall foul of french law. |
The French have no problems with ski clubs teaching people. What they don't allow is non-qualified instructors doing this for a financial reward... or even "animating" groups as said above.
Look at the Eagles, they lead groups off piste.
I've checked with a friendly French Lawyer and Judge who tells me that, in her opinion, the Ski Club leader setup would not count as remuneration and they would be within their rights to lead, instruct and take people off piste. I suspect they don't instruct to avoid conflict with the ESF and obviously off-piste has fallen victim to the 'elf and safety brigade and gnomes of Zurich a.g.
BTW I taught my son to ski... I"m going to charge him later.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Anyway, back to the subject, the SCGB rep is in accommodation provided free (?) by Les Arcs.
The Ministry man and the Gendarmerie escort the SCGB rep off the hill to 'check' his papers.
The SCGB subsequently suspend leading/escorting in Les Arcs.
No more is a known fact.
Unless anyone has a more accurate version of events?
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Boredsurfing wrote: |
Anyway, back to the subject, the SCGB rep is in accommodation provided free (?) by Les Arcs, but the Ministry and the Gendarmerie escort the SCGB rep off the hill to 'check' his papers. The SCGB subsequently suspend guiding/leading/escorting in Les Arcs.
Unless anyone has a more accurate version of events? |
Did they? I must have missed that. Oh, hold on, you made it up, like the twunt you are.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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PJSki,
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Unless anyone has a more accurate version of events?
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If I made that up, which I wouldn't be arsed to do...
Whats the official Ski Club of Great Britain version of events?
They were requested to report to the Gendarmerie office in Bourg St Maurice for a formal interview later that day?
PJSki, Please declare your position in The Ski Club of Great Britain so that others may come to their own conclusion regarding your comments made on snowHeads.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Boredsurfing wrote: |
PJSki, Please declare your position in The Ski Club of Great Britain so that others may come to their own conclusion regarding your comments made on snowHeads. |
No 'position' in it since my membership ran out last October.
For reference, to put your anti Ski club rhetoric in perspective, so that others may come to their own conclusion regarding your comments made on snowHeads, why do you have this near pathological hatred of the Ski Club?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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PJSki, I don't, I was a member for many years, some of their guides/leaders/officers are now friends of mine.
There is however, as usual, the odd one who's actions on snowHeads reflect badly on the others.
If you bothered to check back in the SCGB archive on here you will find little to support your thoughts above.
I thought you were guiding in Italy this season for the club. Do you not have to be a paid up or an honouray member to be a guide?
Anyway back to the subject, have you anymore facts to offer?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Boredsurfing wrote: |
PJSki, I don't, I was a member for many years, some of their guides/leaders/officers are now friends of mine. There is however, as usual, the odd one who's actions on snowHeads reflect badly on the others. If you bothered to check back in the SCGB archive on here you will find little to support your thoughts above.
I thought you were guiding in Italy this season for the club. Do you not have to be a paid up or an honuoray member to be a guide? |
I think you have confused me with someone else.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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PJSki, Really?
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| Boredsurfing wrote: |
Anyway back to the subject, have you anymore facts to offer? |
In reply to your edit:
I see you saw fit to insert a new fact, although you tried to make it look like a question:
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| They were requested to report to the Gendarmerie office in Bourg St Maurice for a formal interview later that day? |
Clearly you have some inside knowledge from your Leader/Officer mates over at the Ski Club.
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| Boredsurfing wrote: |
| PJSki, Really? |
Yeah, really. You seem a bit muddled, confused and misinformed.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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PJSki,  Local gossip, actually hence
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No more is a known fact.
Unless anyone has a more accurate version of events? |
Actually have YOU just confirmed an interview at BstM nick did take place?
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| Boredsurfing wrote: |
PJSki, Local gossip, actually hence
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No more is a known fact.
Unless anyone has a more accurate version of events? |
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Well why don't you go and talk to your Leader/Officer mates over at the Ski Club?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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PJSki, By the by, the stuff in your tag line, isn't time to let things go, after all it was a long long time ago.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Boredsurfing wrote: |
PJSki, Local gossip, actually hence
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No more is a known fact.
Unless anyone has a more accurate version of events? |
Actually have YOU just confirmed an interview at BstM nick did take place? |
I rather think that you are the one who confirmed this. Who am I to call into question the evidence from someone as well connected within the Ski Club as you claim to be.
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| Boredsurfing wrote: |
| PJSki, By the by, the stuff in your tag line, isn't time to let things go, after all it was a long long time ago. |
Not really, not considering the money I lost.
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You know it makes sense.
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PJSki, ah, apologies, I obviously have not understood the full story.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| PJSki wrote: |
| Most of these Brit instructors have other lucrative careers (or feck off rich parents) and are just playing at being instructors. |
It would seem you really are quite out of touch, certainly with the majority of Brits actually teaching (legally) in France.
Very few instructors (Brit, French or other) don't have another career (apart from the few working 'year-round' on glaciers or chasing snow south of the Equator) as a 4/5 month season won't pay the mortgage and feed a family for 12 months. Off the top of my head out of the Brits I know of 2 dry stone wallers, assorted construction workers, 4 or 5 rope access techs, someone who used to deliver horse manure and so on (hardly lucrative careers) - ie they work bl**dy hard in the 'off-season'.
The vast majority of Brit instructors round my way are in it for the long haul (ie as a career); as to the financing of their initial exams/quals, that is (mostly) irrelevant.
| PJSki wrote: |
| annoyingly English seasonaires vomiting in the streets on the night before their day off. |
you seem to be mistaking seasonaires (eg working for a TO, some (but not all) gappies etc) for instructors who have spent a lot of time, energy & money getting qualified to pursue their profession in France. I can honestly say I have seen as many (if not more) red-jacketed French rolling out of bars late at night as I have Brit Instructors.
And while we are at it, when you say "ESF instructors" are you referring to French ESF instructors, British ESF instructors, Australian ESF instructors, Argentinian ESF instructors, Belgian ESF instructors... as we have all those nationalities and more working for the ESFs in Courchevel...
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Poster: A snowHead
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| nbt wrote: |
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And it wouldn't even break the law as free instruction is allowed. Ever skied with your mates off-piste and given a few tips to a weaker one to make him/her more stable? Or shall we ban that as well?
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Except, as mentioned previously on this thread, this forms part of an organised activity, by a club, on the part of a recognised leader, which the french wuold class as "encadrement", and thus could well fall foul of french law. |
Wiki lawyers abound... of course you aki off^piste qith your mates there is always an element of risk, and there are no guarantees.
The point is that if you were about to go off piste alone its probably better to go with somone else.
nbt you re being absurd. Trying to interperet the legal health and saftey issues just doesnt get you any skiing.
Clearly all trips off piste unless you have a paid professional are by definitiion 'disorganised' and therefore have no legal restriction other that that of consenting adults.
Q.E.D. You are entiled to kill zoueaelf.
Nix.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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That is some mental typing eh?
Anyway,
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Q.E.D. You are entiled to kill zoueaelf.
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Maybe, but you're not entitled to kill others.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Bode Swiller, Talking of which, any news on those SCGB prosecutions in Ch?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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nixmap, hmm. is a French prosecutor one of your 'wiki lawyers'?
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| S’il loue les actions de prévention, notamment des services de secours en montagne, le procureur a clairement prévenu : « nous rechercherons, systématiquement, les responsabilités de ceux qui, professionnels ou non, ne savent pas évaluer les dangers et les risques, ou les provoquent en ne sachant pas suffisamment dire non aux sollicitations, parfois douteuses, qui leur sont faites. |
So, prosecutor Quincy is saying that, in Albertville, the French will systematically determine who were responsible professionally or not for being ignorant of hazards, or assessing risk. In the light of that, saying
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| Clearly all trips off piste unless you have a paid professional are by definitiion 'disorganised' and therefore have no legal restriction other that that of consenting adults. |
comes across as superficial. But then this is snowHeads.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| boredsurfin wrote: |
| Bode Swiller, Talking of which, any news on those SCGB prosecutions in Ch? |
Found not guilty. Good news, although I realise that must come as a bit of a blow to some of you.
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PJSki, Thanks for the update.
Good to hear.
Typical 'tho. Kept even a positive result quiet. But I guess good news doesn't sell papers 
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boredsurfin, the original incident didn't really get much publicity. You try and find it in Swiss or UK media. Why are you surprised that the news that someone was not found guilty of something that happened years ago, and which attracted almost zero media at the time, has not been made widely known?
Not conspiracy, not news management, just reality.
Really wish you could get rid of that large spoon...
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
That is some mental typing eh?
Anyway,
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Q.E.D. You are entiled to kill zoueaelf.
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Maybe, but you're not entitled to kill others. |
I hate swiss keyboards
This website switches language contexts at random intervals.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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stoat of the dead, Yep fair points I suppose....
BUT I hear there is a Swiss prosecutor pushing very hard for an appeal. Mentioned at the AGM but the minutes not out yet......
A better reason for not commenting further.
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nixmap, sure you werent just sozzled?
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FAQ
