 Poster: A snowHead
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| fatbob wrote: |
| Ultimately it's all just skiing. |
Indeed.
galpinos, 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| fatbob wrote: |
| This counter stuff just confuses me - it seems that if I'm reading the thread correctly BASIoids are saying its a bad thing or at least not fashionable while others are acknowledging that out in the real world it's very necessary in certain circumstances. A case of where doing things by the book only takes you so far? |
To me it's only confusing if you think that there's a single "right" way to ski. There isn't. (That may sound like a strange thing for me to say, but bear with me.)
But, and it's a big but, there are ways of skiing that more bio-mechanically advantageous / efficient depending in the conditions you're skiing.
So...
Wide stance or narrow stance? It depends. Wide on piste has distinct bio-mechanical advantages in terms of giving you a more stable platform at speed and greater angulation range (the inside leg doesn't block the outside leg). In bumps, though, you don't need that angulation, you barely turn the skis beyond a 45 degree range either way (if you ski the bumps really well) and want to keep the skis (more) under you - so a narrow stance gives you advantages. (Ski width is also a factor here...)
Rounded back with break at hips, or straight back? It depends. On piste a straight back will tend to put your weight back and mean you're not using the whole length of the ski - so the former, with shoulders over knees, over toes. In bumps, maintaing a strong core is important so that you don't pitch forwards and you use the whole length of the ski by exploiting the terrain - so a straighter back is generally better.
Legs long or short at transition? It depends. Long if you're in snow that you need to create a platform in and short if the snow provides the platform.
Counter or no counter? It depends on where in the turn you want to manage pressure and how much opportunity you have to make a rounded turn. On piste you generally want to manage pressure around the whole turn and staying square to the skis means that it's easy to get pressure on early. On steeps you generally don't want to make rounded turns, generally want to control pressure with the skis beneath you and want to get the skis around quickly - in which case counter gives you the distinct advantage that the retained torsional tension in the core helps bring the skis around.
Ski racing is a bit of an exception to the on-piste rule because of the requirement to make skis turn in a(n often) ridiculously small radius in comparison to their sidecut. Angulation is king here and countering gives that last 5-10% of angulation. If you look at the Svindal video you'll also see that he uses the retained torsional tension to help him change edges in the air and (I think that) you can see him "set" his hips square to the line he wants the skis to land on.
I've no doubt that there are arguments to be had here, but take the principle.
I think that this is all about adaptability and richness and, after all, it's all skiing.
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Fri 18-11-11 9:08; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| fatbob wrote: |
| Ultimately it's all just skiing. |
This is not "just skiing"...??!
/StartAmerican-ScottishAccent
THIS...IS... SPAR-SNOWHEADS!
/EndAmerican-ScottishAccent
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FlyingStantoni, Thanks that's nice and clear. (off to consult skimottaret's glossary)
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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FlyingStantoni, have no idea whether all that is right, but you're darn good at expressing it. I understood every word, which is not always the case on BZK. Nice. 
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| skimottaret wrote: |
DB, i shouldnt get involved in this but are you saying that piste skiing is somehow not "real" skiing. Your idea that instruction is all about making "moves" and specific postures and "look" is about 20 years out of date... Instruction went away from moves a long time ago and now is about instilling basic skills that people can take anywhere on the mountain.. As an example When training ski racers are honing and perfecting skills spending loads of time doing very repetitive and specific drills to obtain a skill, when in a course they use those skills that have become unconscious to allow themselves to rip the fastest line while getting thrown around by ruts, negotiating gates etc.. They dont try to hold a position or make a specific "move" same as a backcountry skier who uses his skill set to flow down the mountain, how is someone skiing skillfully down a piste any different?
anyways this thread is about technique resources not the old freeskiers vs. piste skiers (racers) argument. |
The "real" skiing comment was meant to be a bit tongue in cheek - maybe I should have used a different smiley. The clock decides who is the top skier in racing. In the backcountry it's not always posible to ski the near perfect moves (as Doug's video demonstrates) the wrong move takes you down. OK it's less clear to determine who is at the top of their game in the backcountry but generaly the terrain sorts out the men from the boys. Humans appear to determine what is that best level / form of piste skier - they probably have more chance agreeing on which religion is best. Just my opinion but to determine who is the better skier in their discipline you need to take them away from perfectly groomed slopes and synchronised skiing where text book moves and the correct essence of counter can't / isn't always used - this is what I would call "real" skiing.
Yes it's all skiing and I should try this skiing thing too one day too instead of just talking about it on the internet. 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| DB wrote: |
| ... but to determine who is the better skier ... |
Does it always have to be a competition to find the 'best'? All the videos in this thread, including MrSkiAssistant, are enjoyable to watch in one way or another, and all of us can learn from and by inspired by each one, including MrSkiAssistant although perhaps not in obvious ways  Trying to argue about who is the better skier between top racers and top freeskiers just seems futile in my opinion.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| DB wrote: |
| ... but to determine who is the better skier ... |
Does it always have to be a competition to find the 'best'? All the videos in this thread, including MrSkiAssistant, are enjoyable to watch in one way or another, and all of us can learn from and by inspired by each one, including MrSkiAssistant although perhaps not in obvious ways Trying to argue about who is the better skier between top racers and top freeskiers just seems futile in my opinion. |
I'm not aiming to enter a peeing competition and argue who is best (e.g. freeskiers v piste skiers v racers v Mr Skiassistant etc). In my view no one skier is best across the board but some are top of their discipline. I'd like to define or identify who is at the top of a particular discipline as it's something to work to / someone to try and emulate. The danger is when you copy someone who is better than you then you pick up his flaws too. You can end up in a dead-end or on a plateau.
A lot of things are determined by style at the very top. As far as I can see there is no inter-nationally agreed style / method although they are similar. Which of the demonstration skiers would you like to ski like? and how did you determine which one?
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Fri 18-11-11 11:03; edited 1 time in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I for one would like to see Mr Knee Brace and skiassistant in a timed gate race and then on a steep offpiste run.
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You know it makes sense.
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I think it would be a draw - they would both end up in casualty.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| DB wrote: |
| Which of the demonstration skiers would you like to ski like? and how did you determine which one? |
Any of them, perhaps with the exceptions of the Japanese and the American demos. All of them demoed extremely strong skiing although the Japanese and American teams looked less effective to me than the others, with a slightly narrow stance and rate & range of movements which meant later grip/pressure in the turn than some of the other demo teams. As a result their skiing looked a bit contrived, a bit old school, IMHO.
The key for me is the opening description which the commentator gives as he rides up a drag lift. He described modern, effective skiing. Those criteria are key for me, regardless of any perceived differences between the national teams.
Having said that, the 2nd Swiss run where the guy suddenly releases the pressure at the end of one turn and is fired in to the next, requiring an airborne inside leg recovery would be a pretty cool thing to do on demand
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Poster: A snowHead
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would have been great to see the BASI interski team on the same run, side to side comparison with the other nations. Missed opportunity. How do people think they would stack up?
the canadians and the french were best skiers, IMO.
Also, I think it goes to show that what was being demoed was the system and not the skier, coz I cant believe that a country as populace and steeped in alpine tradition as the USA cant produce someone to demo more effective skiing than their demonstator.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| fatbob wrote: |
| This counter stuff just confuses me - it seems that if I'm reading the thread correctly BASIoids are saying its a bad thing or at least not fashionable while others are acknowledging that out in the real world it's very necessary in certain circumstances. A case of where doing things by the book only takes you so far? |
Missed this earlier, and while I don't speak on behalf of any BASI qualified instructor posting in this thread I don't think any of them has said counter is a bad thing. Too much counter is a bad thing. And too little counter is a bad thing. But just the right amount of counter is good thing.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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rob@rar,
Yes to me "effective" is what it is all about. This can be demonstrated against the clock or by surving very difficult offpiste terrain. You agree with this but then go on to talk about whether the piste skiing demo's were modern and how they looked as if piste skiing is a fashion. They were all effective on piste (nobody fell over although the Swiss bloke was closet) but lets be honest it's not a real test of their abilities is it?
Would be interesting to see everyone of those skiers ski a line similar to the one Coombs skied and see if the small piste skiing differences translated into a difference offpiste. I also wonder what sets the best offpiste ski instructors from the others, is it the piste skiing skills or additional offpiste specific skills, fitness or balance etc.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Fri 18-11-11 13:32; edited 1 time in total
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| DB wrote: |
| ... go on to talk about whether the piste skiing demo's were modern and how they looked as if piste skiing is a fashion. |
The trend in ski instruction has been away from contrived & stylistic, to skills-based & effective. Nothing to do with fashion, just an examination of how modern skis are most effectively used and how best to get skiers to use them well. So I used "old-school" as a shorthand for saying "less effective, more stylised skiing". Nothing to do with fashion, unless you consider a trend towards more effective skiing to be "fashionable".
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| DB wrote: |
| ... additional offpiste specific skills |
Just out of interest, what would you consider to be specific off-piste skiing skills. I've often pondered this question so genuinely interested in what you think is specific to off-piste skiing.
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| DB wrote: |
rob@rar,
Yes to me "effective" is what it is all about. This can be demonstrated against the clock or by surving very difficult offpiste terrain. You agree with this but then go on to talk about whether the piste skiing demo's were modern and how they looked as if piste skiing is a fashion. They were all effective on piste (nobody fell over almost the Swiss bloke was closet) but lets be honest it's not a real test of their abilities is it?
Would be interesting to see everyone of those skiers ski a line similar to the one Coombs skied and see if the small piste skiing differences translated into a difference offpiste. I also wonder what sets the best offpiste ski instructors from the others, is it the piste skiing skills or additional offpiste specific skills, fitness or balance etc. |
Interesting stuff. My thought is that for most Nations, 'modern ski technique' has it's foundations in race technique so perhaps they should just have a race off
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| DB wrote: |
| ... additional offpiste specific skills |
Just out of interest, what would you consider to be specific off-piste skiing skills. I've often pondered this question so genuinely interested in what you think is specific to off-piste skiing. |
I don't think there is - there is just more practice. The flaw if there is one with piste based teaching is that it gets people addicted to their edges whereas in softer snow conditions it might be working on the platform of the bases that is important. Now good lesson progression "unteaches" people carving and gets them using pivot/blended skills appropriately but I sense that many people once they can carve well enough think they are skiing gods and stop the learning process. It's pretty common for individuals to proclaim they are great piste skiers but rubbish off piste. Some of this is a Euro mindset as well as I think that the "inbounds" culture of N America ensures that people get taught in a variety of environments in the course of normal progression and there's no expectation that you can be a "good" skier if you only stick to groomers.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| DB wrote: |
| ... additional offpiste specific skills |
Just out of interest, what would you consider to be specific off-piste skiing skills. I've often pondered this question so genuinely interested in what you think is specific to off-piste skiing. |
I'm pondering the same. Maybe they are all transferable and generally the best on-piste ski instructors in a given group also make the best off-piste skiers.
From my limited experience on-piste instruction tends to be focussed on carving but if you look at people such as Coombs they will put in a high speed skarve in deep steep powder to get them where they want to be and to control speed. Fantastic low edge / pressure control that would have most mortal skiers taking a tumble.
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Fri 18-11-11 14:13; edited 1 time in total
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| fatbob wrote: |
| I don't think there is - there is just more practice. The flaw if there is one with piste based teaching is that it gets people addicted to their edges whereas in softer snow conditions it might be working on the platform of the bases that is important. Now good lesson progression "unteaches" people carving and gets them using pivot/blended skills appropriately but I sense that many people once they can carve well enough think they are skiing gods and stop the learning process. It's pretty common for individuals to proclaim they are great piste skiers but rubbish off piste. Some of this is a Euro mindset as well as I think that the "inbounds" culture of N America ensures that people get taught in a variety of environments in the course of normal progression and there's no expectation that you can be a "good" skier if you only stick to groomers. |
Agree entirely, although with the slight caveat that I see few people genuinely carving linked turns so if piste-based instruction teaches people to be addicted to their edges (my teaching doesn't have that as an aim) then it isn't working very well.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| DB wrote: |
| From my limited experience on-piste instruction tends to be focussed on carving |
That's bad instruction, IMHO.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| DB wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| DB wrote: |
| ... additional offpiste specific skills |
Just out of interest, what would you consider to be specific off-piste skiing skills. I've often pondered this question so genuinely interested in what you think is specific to off-piste skiing. |
I'm pondering the same. Maybe they are all transferable and generally the best ski instructors in a given group also make the best off-piste skiers.
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I don't think there are any technical skills which are uniquely developed for off-piste skiing. There's a bunch of stuff around "mountain craft" such as knowing the tactics for different types of snow, an understanding of how equipment choices can change how/what you skis, psychological issues around potentially steeper and/or dangerous terrain, etc.
IMO if you have good on-piste skills (all of them, not just carving) you are well equipped to deal with the technical demands of skiing off-piste. Whether you have all the other stuff depends on what kind of experience you have off-piste.
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rob@rar,
.... but the demo teams were all carving weren't they?
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You know it makes sense.
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| DB wrote: |
rob@rar,
.... but the demo teams were all carving weren't they? |
On that piste (which was smooth and gentle) for those types of run, yes carving was the most efficient way to ski long radius turns. The short radius weren't purely carved. I'm pretty sure that throughout the whole ISIA Congress there was wide range of skiing and ski-discussions going on, only a fraction of which would have been about carving.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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..... (light bulb moment) ahh I've got it now. The ISIA congress show mainly carving and talk about something else whereas Mr Skiassitant does it the other way round.
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Poster: A snowHead
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DB, summit like that.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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rob@rar, I do think there are off piste skills you need in the bag, they can be practised and taught on piste though, specifically
1. Being more 'gentle' with pressure, ie skiing on egg shells
2. Varying stance width
3. Crap explanation but the ability to lift the legs, example a guide gave me was sit on a chair and draw your legs up
4. Warren Smith has some views here - http://www.warrensmith-skiacademy.com/technique-videos/latest-videos/
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kitenski, I agree those are all useful skills off-piste, but equally useful on piste and should be part of your general armoury. For example:
1. Good pressure management, including no sudden changes in pressure will be good for skiing on hardpack snow.
2. Varying stance is useful for, eg, skiing long radius turns at speed (wide stance) or bumps (narrow stance)
3. Cross-under turns good for skiing performance shorts, such as slalom skiing.
4. Inside leg control (ref Warren's video) is good for all skiing (we do an entire Performance Clinic on it at Hemel).
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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rob@rar, hence the reason I said "they can be practised and taught on piste though"
So 3 the posh name is cross-under turns then
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| kitenski wrote: |
| rob@rar, hence the reason I said "they can be practised and taught on piste though" |
But does that make them off-piste skills, or just ski skills that are useful no matter where you ski?
| Quote: |
| So 3 the posh name is cross-under turns then |
If we're talking about the same thing.
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| Quote: |
On that piste (which was smooth and gentle) for those types of run, yes carving was the most efficient way to ski long radius turns. The short radius weren't purely carved. I'm pretty sure that throughout the whole ISIA Congress there was wide range of skiing and ski-discussions going on, only a fraction of which would have been about carving.
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In terms of skiing at the highest level I'd be willing to bet a lot of it would have been about ski performance though, 'carving' is a word that has different meanings to different people, they may not be leaving two clean lines in the snow whilst making short turns, but they will still be trying to get the highest edge angles possible. This holds for off piste as well, even in steep terrain what I see as 'good' skiing is moving your body inside the turn and tipping your skis over, if your skis are underneath you, and you're twisting them, that's not high performance skiing.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| kitenski wrote: |
| rob@rar, hence the reason I said "they can be practised and taught on piste though" |
But does that make them off-piste skills, or just ski skills that are useful no matter where you ski?
| Quote: |
| So 3 the posh name is cross-under turns then |
If we're talking about the same thing. |
I think the latter, skills useful all over the hill..
Will have to search out cross-under turns and let you know!!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| kitenski wrote: |
| Will have to search out cross-under turns and let you know!! |
The French talk about avalement turns. Not sure what the german word for it is.
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Some offpiste skiing skills that may not be that important on the piste:
- aim BETWEEN the trees
- for crust, when all else fails, lean back and surf it. I'm pretty sure this is wrong technique but it can save your ass (at the expense of burning through your thighs in about 5 minutes flat)
- find little terrain features to pop off, in order to turn easily. Particulary useful in deep heavy snow, aka liquid cement
- cliff drops...but I wouldn't know what to say about the technique as I don't really do them
By and large I think I'm much closer to the view that strong piste skiing translates into strong offpiste skiing. But it's also possible for offpiste-oriented skiers to have a bag of tricks which allow them to be stronger offpiste than you would think by looking at their piste skiing performance.
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FAQ
