 Poster: A snowHead
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VolklAttivaS5, I kept taking courses until my knees started hurting too much...
Hurtle, we will be doing an informational page on our new website highlighting this stuff in the summer sometime when we redo our site. As you say joe public has no clue about various levels of instructor let alone different governing bodies...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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skimottaret, I'm sure  . So did you gain exemption or did you already have the IVSI?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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VolklAttivaS5, keep taking courses till YOUR knees hurt and you can work it out 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Hurtle, at least at the lower levels, there is a difference in focus between BASI and SSE. I started with BASI's coaching stream as it allowed you to do that without going through the instructor pathway first. I soon realised though that BASI's focus was all (quite reasonably) to open mountain instruction/coaching. My interest in coaching/instruction is solely as a part timer at local dry slope(s) (or potentially snowdome), as I don't particularly want do use my valuable vacations from the dayjob in instructing when I could be skiing instead. Local slopes are the main focus of SSE, so I've quickly changed to working through their system.
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GrahamN, thanks. (Were you skiing yesterday? You missed a cracking RFH gig - Bayerische Rundfunk/Jansons/Uchida, Beethoven PC3 & Ein Heldenleben, top whack.)
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Not sure of the rules, but I know instructor L2s without coaching qualifications who have taken groups out to France to teach. If it's under the auspices of a club, is an IVSI actually necessary?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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slikedges, It's hard to see how they would be insured otherwise.
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david@mediacopy, they have BASI L2
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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slikedges, hard to know. You would assume that the 'club' would provide members insurance via membership of SSE, hence the IVSI link.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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david@mediacopy, maybe I'm too ignorant to know what I'm missing here, but doesn't BASI provide professional liability cover for L2s to teach on a mountain?
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slikedges,
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doesn't BASI provide professional liability cover for L2s to teach on a mountain?
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Only where they're legally permitted to teach, which with the L2 alone does not include France.
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You know it makes sense.
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beanie1, is this spelt out anywhere for each qualification? For instance if I was taking a club group to Andorra/Austria/Canada/Italy/Spain/Switzerland, where would I check if I was covered or not if I had a Instructor L2 or L3 or Coach L1 or L2?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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slikedges, BASI will tell you what your qualification permits you to do (eg L1 on an artificial slope, L2 in mountains on piste) but it's down to you as an instructor to check with the relevant local authority that you are legally qualified to teach in the country you are going to.
I'm sure if you have a query about a specific country you can contact the office with the query and they'll advise you where they can.
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Poster: A snowHead
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beanie1, my understanding, which may be wrong, was that L2s were allowed to teach in France if it was under the auspices of a private ski club, so that it is legally permitted. I know a few L2s who do this, all quasi-commercially. Are you certain that if things are as I have described they will have no professional liability cover from BASI?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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slikedges I will double check.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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beanie1, please also check for Coach L1 and L2 if you could, much obliged!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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slikedges, I know for a fact that you can teach in certain areas of Austria with your own clients for a maximum of 28 days each year (although for a period of a maximum 14 consecutive days) but you must have BASI Level 3 to do this legally. Paperwork must be sent to the regional instructor association ie. Tirol, Vorarlberg etc before the planned visit. Certain areas in Italy will also allow ISIAs to work with their own clients for limited time periods.
I have also worked for Austrian ski schools who recognise the L3 as equivalent to the top Landeslehrer qualification and they pay at this level.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I really don't know the answer to this and am asking solely to find out where I'd stand legally if say I was to take a group for one of the many organisations that works this way even though I'd personally probably only be doing it for beer money.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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slikedges, I've had to do loads of research myself to find out where I legally stand with working in the various countries on a temporary basis with my own clients. I still don't know where I stand with working in Switzerland for the odd week or so and have no idea about Andorra, Spain etc. I think a Level 2 instructor might even be able to work with their own clients in some Italian areas for a limited period of time but I'm not a 100% sure on this.
Although I have the ADC2 I would not want to coach with a club or my own clients in France as I'm not convinced I'd be covered for liability or quite how well this would go down with the locals... I would also not work anywhere else where I am not legally allowed to.
beanie1, it would be fantastic if BASI could provide up to date and accurate information on the website for working in the various countries. They also need to bear in mind that there are numerous regional differences. For example, one Austrian state will allow you to work independently with the ISIA stamp under the 14/28 day ruling but another won't allow any independent foreign instructors to work on a temporary basis. Some Italian states will allow a L3 to work for the odd week or so whilst others rule that you need the ISTD to do this etc etc.
Edited to clarify.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Tue 29-03-11 11:56; edited 1 time in total
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juliad, yep, confirmation of which qualification is valid where, and how would be very useful.
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| juliad wrote: |
| I think a Level 2 instructor might even be able to work with their own clients in some Italian areas for a limited period of time but I'm not a 100% sure on this. |
| juliad wrote: |
| Some Italian states will allow a L3 to work for the odd week or so whilst others rule that you need the ISTD to do this etc etc. |
One of the problems with the BASI advice regarding working in Italy is that Italy does not have a single set of rules regarding who can or can't do this that or the other. Each region has its own set of rules.
Round here (Trentino - that’s the central bit of the top left of Italy - sort of a large V, from Verona up to the Austrian border) you can work for a ski school all season with an L3 if the ski school director signs it off. You need L4 to work alone.
Note - L3's are not really meant to be abe to do this, but in practice as long as you get the local school director to sign it off, you're OK.
The Italians really don't see much difference between working as a coach or working as an instructor - basically as ski schools tend to do both round here. So if you turn up with a group (club) and start "coaching" them, you'll need a native Italian speaker to explain to the locals how you're not really "instructing" them or you’ll have a problem.
The general rules (round here, not sure about anywhere else) is that:
L1’s are not instructors
L2’s can work within a school for up to 15 days per year - gaining their hours towards becoming an instructor
L3’s can do the same as L2’s unless you’re within an AMSI recognised school
L4’s can do what they want providing they register them self with the regional AMSI
Another problem with “coaching” (round here) is that to “coach” you need to be coaching a club and, as such, you’ll need to rent a section of slope from the lift company to do you coaching within. If you don’t then you’ll be seen as “instructing” and, again as such, you’ll need L3’ or L4 if you don’t want a problem with the locals.
In this area the locals (that I work with) see the vast majority of “coaching” awards as just another way of saying “I’m not a qualified instructor”. Not saying this is right or wrong, just how it is.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Wayne, so are you saying that to 'coach' (in that area anyway), they can't take their 'club' all over the mountain? I guess for the vast majority of dry slope clubs which are coaching racers anyway only need a patch of the piste to do the race coaching on, so that's probably why?
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slikedges, I've had to do loads of research myself to find out where I legally stand with working in the various countries on a temporary basis with my own clients. I still don't know where I stand with working in Switzerland for the odd week or so and have no idea about Andorra, Spain etc. I think a Level 2 instructor might even be able to work with their own clients in some Italian areas for a limited period of time but I'm not a 100% sure on this.
Although I have the ADC2 I would not want to coach with a club or my own clients in France as I'm not convinced I'd be covered for liability or quite how well this would go down with the locals...
beanie1, it would be fantastic if BASI could provide up to date and accurate information on the website for working in the various countries. They also need to bear in mind that there are numerous regional differences. For example, one Austrian state will allow you to work independently with the ISIA stamp under the 14/28 day ruling but another won't allow any independent foreign instructors to work on a temporary basis. Some Italian states will allow a L3 to work for the odd week or so whilst others rule that you need the ISTD to do this etc etc.
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Some potential clients might like this information as well. If someone is contemplating being taught by an instructor outside the auspices of a locally based ski school a 'clued-up' someone would want to know that the instructor is at least 'qualified' to teach there. And that's regardless of whether that someone is a member of a club or a private client.
I'm sure there are differences between the 'law' and interpretation of that law by local vested interests and that a degree of professional courtesy is called for.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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VolklAttivaS5,
I am not saying it's right or wrong - just how it is.
Unless you're talking about high level athletes, the vast majority of "coaching" is actually "teaching" anyway and to teach here, and I think in France, Austria, Germany, etc, etc, etc, you need to be a qualified, to the local standards and requirements. Any legal shenanigans regarding titles and job descriptions will be lost in translation.
I have my L2 coach thingy but I wouldn't call myself a coach when doing the normal ski club training, I'm teaching. I would only call my self a coach when working with my ski team of Kiri , Lindsey and, of course Chemmy.
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Tue 29-03-11 10:58; edited 1 time in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Wayne wrote: |
Unless you're talking about high level athletes, the vast majority of "coaching" is actually "teaching" anyway |
Correct.
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stewart woodward,
Hi stewart - how's your collar for furryness this year ? 
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Wayne, I must admit even with my limited amount of knowledge on the subject I was always under the impression that 'coaching' was for athletes/racers as you and stewart woodward have said, and any 'general punters' wanting to improve their ski technique were taught not coached  what is the difference?
Besides, how do you try and convince a person (even in English, let alone a foreign language) that may well be skeptical about what you are trying to say to start with, as well as possibly being a bit miffed since they believe you are teaching on their turf illegally, that you are actually 'coaching' your group not 'instructing' them? Seems like a bit of a tall order to me and I wouldn't like to be in that situation.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Sorry if this has already been answered, but for taking a club group to France for coaching, do all coaches doing the coaching have to have the IVSI thingy mentioned earlier in order to be properly insured, or not? Think that might be the same question slikedges was asking, kind of.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Besides, how do you try and convince a person (even in English, let alone a foreign language
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+1 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| david@mediacopy wrote: |
| Coaching is just as relevant for recreational skiers as it is for racers. |
Not sure about that. Just as someone can't get a snowplough for 2 years doesn't mean you're coaching them in that specific technique. You're teaching them how to do it. OK maybe over a prolonged period of time but it's still teaching. The length of time you have been coaching/teaching someone is academic and so is the amount of time they have been in the sport or the level they have reached.
Coaching is different from teaching and it’s “very” easy (even for the local EFS school, so watch out ?) to spot which a UK based person is doing.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Wayne wrote: |
| david@mediacopy wrote: |
| Coaching is just as relevant for recreational skiers as it is for racers. |
Not sure about that. Just as someone can't get a snowplough for 2 years doesn't mean you're coaching them in that specific technique. You're teaching them how to do it. OK maybe over a prolonged period of time but it's still teaching. The length of time you have been coaching/teaching someone is academic and so is the amount of time they have been in the sport or the level they have reached.
Coaching is different from teaching and it’s “very” easy (even for the local EFS school, so watch out ?) to spot which a UK based person is doing. |
Again, must admit that this makes perfect sense to me Wayne. If someone has already reached a very high level in swimming or skiing or whatever sport they do, generally the coach doesn't tell them 'how' to do what they do as they already know how to but is responsible for motivation, psychological support, encouragement, firing up etc, I'd have thought
Edited for typo.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Tue 29-03-11 12:19; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I will pass the comments about putting rules for each country / region on the website, however I think this comment probably explains why they're not there now:
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I'm sure there are differences between the 'law' and interpretation of that law
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FAQ
I wouldn't want to be questioned by a local as to which one of the two I was doing to enable me to be there. It would be a bit like trying to convince them that a dog on a lead next to you complete with wagging tail is not really a real dog, but actually a puppet, i.e. I don't think it would wash 
For example, if someone was questioned about, or seen 'coaching' in a particular French resort, word could get around (rightly or wrongly) that rules were being bent to suit or whatever and then British instructors working in the area with adequate certification might get a hard time as a result of other people's actions? 