 Poster: A snowHead
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| scottishskier wrote: |
| Small French Resorts may not be the fairest comparison. I bet its propped up by the commune/subsidies. I have skied other small resorts in the same area that I'd have been amazed if they were profitable. |
You are probably right but I was just answering the question.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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stewart woodward,
Yes. it's a real interesting area actually, and so close to a major city and airport too.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
| The problem is that servicing Locals doesn\'t generate enough revenue for reinvestment, |
Within the last decade or so...
New Cairngorm funicular (£30 million)
New Braveheart Chair at Nevis Range.
New Lecht chairlift, Snowy Owl, and (£1 million) base station.
New magic carpets installed at the Lecht.
New Chairlift due to be installed at Glenshee this winter.
Entire Glencoe lift system converted from diesel to electric.
New 250K groomers at Cairngorm / Nevis and Glenshee (and one on order for Glencoe)
New mountain bike trails at all 5 centres.
Nevis Range high wire course and world class downhill MTB course.
... Plus lots of other minor upgrades and general maintenance. (new motors / cable replacements / loading ramps etc).
What more do you want ?
Yes I agree a new lift in Coire Na Ciste would be nice 
| Quote: |
| As a result it\'s missing an opportunity to service the wider \'tourist\' market. |
What exactly is the wider tourist market ?
I already explained several times why southern england is not, and never has been, the main target audience for scottish skiing.
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| Last year saw record visitor numbers |
True - that is fact.
Most skiers for 20 years.
Cairngorm 144,000
Glenshee 116,614
The Lecht 52,147
Nevis 34,886
Glencoe 26,135
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Total 373,782
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| The purchase of a lift ticket demonstrtates an unwillingness to walk. |
Even in the mega alpine resorts you frequently have to walk 200m to get to a bus-stop.
| Quote: |
| but the current set up(s) seem unable to align their offering to the wider audience who will be needed to pay for it. (Assuming the weather stays with us |
Examples, rather than unfounded speculation, that all Scottish resorts are badly managed and inward looking please....
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Wed 29-12-10 12:22; edited 1 time in total
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Haggis_Trap,
| Quote: |
| Examples, rather than unfounded speculation, please.... |
Whatever. I drove to Scotland, visited 3 resorts, spent lots of my money and those are the impressions I came away with. I'll try and get back to Glencoe and maybe Nevis, but Cairngorm has lost me.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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^ Aye - Most of Cairngorms "problems" (and I use the word loosely) can be directly related back to building the £30 million funicular train they couldn't afford. Ironically the funicular is exactly the kind of big investment people are demanding in this thread
For what its worth Glencoe and Nevis are my 2 favorite Scottish resorts.
Maybe because they realise they are little Scottish ski resorts ? And don't try to be some 2nd rate alpine imitation ?
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
^ Aye - Most of Cairngorms "issues" (and I use the word loosely) can directly related back to building the £30 million funicular train they couldn't afford. Ironically the funicular is exactly the kind of big investment people are demanding in this thread
For what its worth Glencoe and Nevis are my 2 favorite Scottish resorts.
Maybe because they realise they are little Scottish ski resorts ? And not some 2nd rate alpine imitation ? |
I'm just asking that they make the most of what they have.
Glencoe was charming and much fun, as you say, it is what it is.
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Hi folks, I guess it was only a matter of time until I posted in this thread and loss of internet access for the last 4 days delayed the inevitable somewhat but here I am! 
Anyway, as always some very good points made above, many of which I agree with some I disagree with but more of that later.
With regards to lift tickets, local kids (Highlands and Grampian) get Cairngorm season tickets for £50 if bought before 30 September (£71 from 1st October) other kids are charged £134 before 30th Sept and £189 thereafter. Adult seasons are £280 before 30th Sept and £388 after, there are other types of ticket too with reductions for students and over 65s etc. Details of general prices can be found here on the Cairngorm site. Obviously there are other ski areas and other pricing structures ... had to say that or certain posters would have my guts for garters
I should mention though that one of the better ways to buy day tickets is to buy the 4 day vouchers which give a reduced price of just over £25 a day for adults.
Anyway, on to stuff I disagree with - basically it's Doug's (Haggis_Trap) comment that:
| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| Scotland's market always has been home based skiers - even in the 1970s and 1980s. |
It's something Doug has said before and I think is probably aware I disagree with but it's perhaps mostly a disagreement about wording and emphasis. If the comment had been "Scotland's main market always has been home based skiers" I'd be inclined to agree overall but this varies from place to place and always has done. I'm sorry to admit though that unlike Doug (lucky fella ) I'm long enough enough in the tooth to remember a time when Scottish skiing was clearly both marketed towards home skiers and those much further south, I recall the brochures (I still have some although I'd rather not have to scan them to prove my point ... please  ) and remember when marketing efforts included ski shows some of which were south of the Midlands! When I say Scottish skiing I may mainly be mostly referring to Cairngorm which still attracts a large number of skiers/boarders from south of the border (I have direct experience of instructing many) whereas when Doug refers to Scotland he may be mainly referring to Glencoe which does, and probably always has, attracted very few from south of the border so we may both betray a difference in experience as well as emphasis as a result. In making that comment I'm certainly not dissing Glencoe as a destination, as I'm sure Doug (and doubtless some others) know I hold the place in very high regard indeed and view it as a/the veritable gem of Scottish skiing.
However having said that I do agree with david@mediacopy and others who have said things could be better. Some resorts make a better stab at things than others but overall IMHO marketing is dire, investment is sometimes made in the wrong places (certainly at some ski areas) and day to day running and customer service could sometimes be better although I've only ever had complaints about one ski area in particular I have to admit! Yes I agree Scotland can't compete as a long haul destination but as a weekend/opportunistic trip destination that's very different to the Alps so much more could IMHO be made of it.
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Roga - Even at Cairngorm by far the vast majority of skiers are from local area. At a rough guess at least 90% of Cairngorm skiers are within day trip-able distance. With out doubt that is the core market - those able to take advantage when the snow and weather conditions turn good.
Yes, some people come from further afield, and that is great. However the simple fact is that Scotland is not, and never has been, a big destination resort for skiing. And there is nothing wrong with that. Lets not forget that 5 million people live in Scotland!
Most people wouldn't even dream of booking a ski holiday to Poland / southern Norway or a small resort in the Jura for example ?
Though I am sure there is also sometimes great skiing there too
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| Quote: |
| IMHO marketing is dire, investment is sometimes made in the wrong places (certainly at some ski areas) and day to day running and customer service could sometimes be better although I've only ever had complaints about one ski area in particular I have to admit! |
Rightly or wrongly it seems to have become acceptable to bash CML online. (my only gripe is the core-lifts policy but that is another topic). This then quickly translates to a general perception that "all other Scottish ski centres are badly managed and dont know what they are doing". This myth needs to be busted ASAP.
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Haggis_Trap,
okay...i am being persauded by your arguments about the 'local' market for Scot Ski.
There are probably two or three points i would still put forward.
One - is that the marketing for Scot Ski in the north of england and borders is verging on non-existent (unless you go looking for the websites - which are very good). So does lead Scot Ski to miss out on a market? (and the answer may be no)
two - pricing, it sounds like 'local' tickets can be great value (memberships in particular), but i repeat that for (out of area) families 1 or 2 adults plus kids its expensive. Again is this a market that is worth fishing for? (in my case we could only afford a dry slope family membership, but it got us all skiing, now the oldest kids DO use their own dosh to visit SkiScot) and are happy to pay 20 odd quid for a day ticket. So by having a family accommodation with lift pass deal could the local ski economy be onto a winner? (its a common thing for small alpine resorts to do). Is it a market worth chasing?
three - expectations differ, but any business should listen to customer feedback (it doesnt mean to say the customer is right) and try to see if things can be improved. This is often at little or no cost.
i would also like to say that many of haggis_trap's arguments apply to the dry slopes up and down the country who should look after their 'local' customers with repeat visits being the key to survival. Sensible investment, no silly expensive spending, and just a good quality experience.
Finally to let the cat out of the bag, I travel 7 hours to my favourite ScotSki resort by far - GLENCOE - a few times a season. I like small, simple, friendly, a laugh and infact do the same in europe - small, local and good value! 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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We seem to have three camps of opinion on Scottish skiing:
The English (who never go there) who slag off Scottish skiing as rubbish, poor snow, useless infrastructure.
The Scots who defend it to the hilt
The occasional visitors (English, Scots, whatever) who recognise Scottish skiing for what it is, enjoy it, but suggest ways that the experience could be improved to attract more people like them.
I consider myself to be in the third group. I visited Nevis and Cairngorm last winter and had a great time, but there are many simple things that could be done to improve matter - signage in both places was terrible, and in typical Scottish visibility that is silly - I still have no idea what runs I was skiing most of the time. It was also blindingly obvious that investment in these two places is inadequate. A "modern" gondola, where modern skis won't fit in the racks, the quad chair was in aterrible state, footrests broken off, bent and buckled safety bars etc. At Cairngorm much of the infrastructure seems to be being left to rot - abandoning the Ciste Chair is crazy.
I would emphasise that I really enjoyed my visits, and such idiosyncrasies did not put me off, but I along with others such as david@mediacopy would like Scottish skiing to thrive long term, and for that they must continually improve, not just defend what they have for the locals. I would also say, going back to the OP that I did not think they were overpriced, day tickets were OK and drinks/snacks etc very reasonable.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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RobinS,
that's what i meant to say!! well done.
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| Quote: |
| and for that they must continually improve, not just defend what they have for the locals |
They are, within realistic budget constraints.
See long list of improvements above.
RobinS - From my experience the modern uplift at Nevis Range is on a par with many alpine resorts.
Scotland will always have surface lifts / t-bars - as these are lifts that can operate in higher average wind speeds.
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You know it makes sense.
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My decision to go to Nevis always depends on whether the Back Corries are skiable but the web site never mentions that, and when I ring the office there they never seem to know the answer. I do understand that the top of the back is too steep for the majority of skiers but there is no signpost to say it is even there - I mentioned it to several people while sharing lifts and many didn't know it was there and few had been to look at it.
The possibilities of Nevis are hugely enhanced when Braveheart lift is open but it seldom is - a few weekends a year seems to be it. This is not just because of the skiing down the main back bowl and ridge but it also opens up the off-piste (otherwise you have to climb up half the Braveheart lift to get back). The time I was there last they didn't intend to open it but ran it for a couple of minutes as a test. At once a crowd of people skied down and waited in vain for it to start again. We phoned up and after a bit of thought they agreed to open - however they could not keep up with demand and the wait was so long we walked up the second time. This is largely because of a poor choice of (second-hand) lift. Although it is only a single-seater the motor cannot cope with a full lift and they had to load only alternate chairs.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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^ the official ski report (NR web site / Ski Scotland) is usually very keen to advertise the days when it looks likely braveheart will be able to run.
it has a brand new motor this winter
so when the snow / weather allows it should run more often this season.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I'm very glad to hear it. 
My first paragraph still stands though. When Braveheart is closed you can still ski the back.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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...
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Wed 29-12-10 14:15; edited 2 times in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
out of the 8 full days I could have skied I got on the mountain 2 days
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I don't doubt it but was saying that, as I understand it, last season at Cairngorm was typical, with an average of one in seven days lost to the weather - I do appreciate that this could mean six out of eight closed, as above. Having said that, we're currently in a good run with next to no stormbound days in recent weeks and a fairly decent forecast ahead.
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However you do need to be keep an eye on the conditions to make the most of Scottish skiing.
As weather and snow conditions change fast on almost daily basis.
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Agreed. We've learned the hard way that you can't just hope for the best and turn up regardless of the forecast - we aborted a trip 4 days ago as high winds were forecast. Turned out to be the right call with the lifts closed early.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I was going to respond with more issues that could be addressed to make Scottish skiing more attractive, but I see from some of the responses that the 3 camps I mentioned above appaer to be irreconcilable, with the "defend to the hilt" brigade refusing to accept that there can be anything worthwhile in constructive suggestions.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
| .... defend to the hilt brigade refusing to accept that there can be anything worthwhile in constructive suggestions |
^ errr - but you havent even made any suggestions yet.
Apologies for daring to defend Scottish ski resorts and explaining basic economic reality - I am sorry that view point offends you so much...
Of course they arent perfect - but in my opinion they do a damn good job with limited resources.
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Haggis_Trap,
moving swiftly on, i noticed the url at the bottom of your posts, took a chance and clicked on it (thought it might shout at me!) and what a really pleasant surprise!!! A fantastic website........i particularly liked the weather section with 'roll over' links to all the ScotSki webcams.......hey cairngorm looks pretty busy
Buzzard at Lecht looks like my idea of family fun run.
great stuff
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Haggis_Trap, Yep, great site. You seem to have some extra web cams for Glencoe which I've not come across before.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Nice site. The Nevis back corries general view with routes marked in yellow is too small, though. Could you send me a larger copy? I get the impression there is a route somewhere I had wondered about but never dared go. (And where does the extreme left one go?)
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Snowball - There is link to a bigger pano on the same page (below the slide show).
Would like to take a better pic on a sunny day with more snow.
For now this will do...
http://www.haggistrap.co.uk/photostrs/easyspikes/popup1.html
Allt Chul Choire drops below Aonach Beag.
Basically the middle of nowhere. So you would need to skin back up - did top section about 5 years ago, it holds snows well into spring.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Thanks - the Climbers Col was the one I had wondered about. Is it rocky? How steep is it? Is it prone to avalanche? I never went to the right from Chancer to look over the edge.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Well like most of the backs its rocky underneath...
Just depends where direction the snow has come from.
Climbers Col sits catches the sun (right of this photo) - have seen wet snow slide debris there before.
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Haggis_Trap, How about some decent signage? Fitting the gondola with ski racks that skis will actually fit in? Mending the safety bars on the Quad Chair?
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You know it makes sense.
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snowball, skied Climbers Col last season in fantastic conditions.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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RobinS,
i am sure that haggis is doing a sign right now especially for you !!
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Going back to the price issue, one could counter argue that increased prices might even lead to a better skiing experience and more repeat business. I use the example of peak times in the season when the resorts can be rammed to the extent that lift queues can be horrendous and may discourage repeat business after bad experiences. Higher prices for peak times may reduce numbers whilst maintaining revenue and promoting skiing at off peak times. In effect most of the ski areas already operate a variable ticket price with the quoted being the peak price and often the actual price will be lower. If this was perhaps publicised better some might not complain so much. I suspect though the people that complain about ticket prices are the ones that only turn up at peak times so never see cheaper rates and quiet slopes!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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scottishskier, Good point about the pricing at peak times.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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scottishskier,
i concede a valid point when demand outweighs supply - but how often does that happen? genuine question as i don't know the answer.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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linso, half term holidays, weekends in January / early February when snow's on the ground in Glasgow and Edinburgh, when the funicular track is blocked by snowdrifts on Cairngorm etc. It's easy with experience to know when these peaks / bottlenecks are going to occur but can be very, very frustrating if you're new to Scottish skiing and hadn't anticipated it.
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moffatross,
thanks that sort of info is really helpful. i have only skied glencoe, which i enjoy lots.
got to admit though, i prefer relatively quiet slopes
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Yup what moffatross said. I add that in general Nevis Range would normally the quietest on the peak weekends and Caringorm/Glenshee the worst.
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Yup, if the snow is good, Cairngorm and Glenshee are usually BAD for crowds, although at Glenshee, if the whole area is open queue's aren't really too bad.
If your tied down to the weekend, and all the Ski Area's have good snow, and it's one of the peak times, head West to minimise the time spent standing in lift line's.
Would agree with Haggis Trap that most of the Ski Areas do a damn fine job with very limited resources.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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£30 for a day's sport seems reasonable to me. If people don't like the cost of it then don't go. Relativisms with the likes of the 3 Valleys and the Espace Killy, while appealling, are misleading. These are totally different operations in many aspects and comparisions with Scottish centres are fatuous.
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kevin mcclean,
hi kevin, for an individual whether its 20 quid or 30 quid may not be of great importance, especially if on the slopes for one or two days. But if alpha male (or female!) is paying for partner and sprogs then price becomes a major issue. Now you may say that thats tough, dont try and do what you cant afford - i think thats a shame though and one of the questions being asked was 'does SkiScot miss out in the long run by not having really good family ticket deals?'. The thinking being that, if your kids learn to ski, they will become self paying adult skiers at some time and so on....discuss!
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FAQ
