Transceiver test 2009

A snowHead

The biggest thing I learned on my avvy 1 (after "avoid actually being caught in one or you're Be Nice please!

) was practicing digging is pretty important too. Turns out 3ft of cement like debris takes a while to shift.

A snowHead

Grey and orange in Mk2 guise now Kill_Region

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Ortovox S1

See http://en.ortovox.com/service/s1_update.html

According to my reading of this web page there are four versions of the Ortovox S1, the latest being version 2.1. It also appears that the software can now be upgraded and there are brief details on the Ortovox web page.

The Ortovox web page links to another page for the UK update company, the URL there seems wrong. Firstly the link is broken Next, visiting www.noblecustom.co.uk.com gives an advertising site. However http://www.noblecustom.co.uk/ seems to work. Digging through the noblecustom site I found this in the Ortovox servicing PDF:

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Interesting slanging match, I need to add my comments, in April 2007 I was involved with 6 qualified mountain guides on avalanche practice senarios. We had with us a single S1 and a Pulse tranceiver which were on loan from the manufactures, we also had a mixed bunch of older units. On this occasion ALL the guides came out in favor of the pulse.
That evening one of the guides started reading the S1 manual while the rest of us fed, at the end of 4 hours the guide threw it down and said that it was too complicated to try and remember all the excess funtions and the unit would be useless in the near panic of a real avalanche rescue.

One particular burial demonstrated to me clearly how superior the pulse was when, I with my old Pieps could not pin down a signal to anything less than a 4m dia circle, the S1 was similar but the pulse told us it was 2m away, turned out to be buried 2m down.
I can only assume that the S1 has now been simplified and the software made more reliable, because it didn't get my vote then.

BTW for what it is worth perhaps "snowball's" guide was with us on the test!!! wink

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7 choices,all with pics to make remembering what each one does easier, how thick do you need to be to not be able to work an s1, i dunno but i sure don't want you as my guide...

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the paper being discussed is very poor and there is no basic statistical analysis to see if the differences (which are small) between the different transcievers and groups are significant. The paper is not even half finished. If I was really sad I'd put the data in to SPSS or even excel and find some P values-

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It just needs a T test- paired

After all it is free

there is another interesting review of transcievers. No attempt at stats in this and all opinion- from Facewest reaching totally differnt conclusions based on ease of use.

http://www.facewest.co.uk/Transceiver-Review-2007.html

Conclusions.
In the test we have tried not to get too bogged down with technology and extra features and tried to concentrate on a single victim rescue which is your most likely scenario and the plain user friendly-ness of the transceivers. If you are faced with multiple burial and rescue just one person then you are a legend, and for most people it’s not worth choosing a transceiver with this criteria in mind.
From the distance results the transceivers fall mainly into 3 groups. The pure digital units with the shortest range, the hybrid units with slightly greater range and the specialist & analogue units with the greatest range. The one exception is the Pieps DSP which is pure digital but with an analogue range and managed to provide full directional information at 50m.
Now range is important but it’s not everything as the whole search procedure needs to be taken into account to really rate the units. Now the pure digital units are easiest to use which helps offset the range disadvantage and is a very important consideration for the infrequent user. At first glance the Hybrid units seem to offer the best of both worlds but the disadvantage is that you need to understand how an analogue and a digital transceiver work and know when it has switched from being one to the other. So these units score poorly on ease of use. Also the analogue range of the transceivers has been compromised and in the case of the Ortovox Patroller the digital performance is compromised as well. So I do not recommend hybrid units at all, they work OK but I think there is a better option in the other groups depending on what sort of user you are.
This leaves the pure analogue F1 and the pure technology S1, both from Ortovox. The F1 results confirm what we have said all along that with training and practice the pure analogue transceiver is hard to beat. The reason not many people buy them is they are honest enough to admit that will not practise enough (or at all) each season to keep their skill level up. However it’s good news for victims as a good percentage of them will be rescued by Ski Professionals who will probably be carrying an analogue unit that is several years old. Lastly the S1, the new super transceiver from Ortovox which can display multiple signals simultaneously on its screen. We found that it either works fantastically well or was totally confusing. The S1 seemed to be able to guide you in from 50m with great precision but when we artificially veered off course it seemed unable to get us back on line without becoming very confused and was very slow to update the distance information when you were walking 180 degrees the wrong way. A transceiver that is sometimes fantastic and sometimes poor gets an overall rating of poor. The S1 hints at some great performance but I believe that the software still has some improvements needed. I have read another review that was much more favourable read it HERE, and the reviewer was very impressed by the advanced features for the group leader but I am commenting on what I found in my local park doing simple searches.

So in summary of my conclusions I recommend the following transceivers for the following people

Ortovox F1 – Those on a budget who will learn how to use it and practise with their transceiver every season without fail. (not many of you)
Tracker DTS – Those who want the most straight forward transceiver to use. The tracker is proven as reliable and very easy to use. Very suited to most users.
Pieps DSP – Those who want a fully featured digital transceiver with great range. You might think that this is everyone because the DSP does do everything the Tracker does and more but all those extra symbols and buttons can confuse, and for sheer simplicity the Tracker still suits many people. But if you want those advanced features then the DSP is great.

For 2007/08 Facewest will also probably be selling the following transceivers and why;
Pieps Freeride – Very small, simplified analogue transceiver at a great price (around £99), probably quite difficult to use but great to give to someone as a transmitter only or for someone very experienced who can use it. Will know more when I have reviewed it.
BCA Tracker 2 – quite similar to the current excellent model but with a faster processor and a third antenna to eliminate the spike. Sounds great, looking forward to reviewing it.
Ortovox S1 – despite my reservations about the S1, there will still be a demand for it as the latest transceiver and as long as I am honest about what I think of it then I am quite happy if people disagree with me.

Of the transceivers reviewed we will not be selling the following and why;

Arva Evolution – Very, very similar to the Tracker, but with a slightly weak on/off switch design. We feel that if you like the Evolution you would find the Tracker just about identical.
Arva Advanced – Hybrid digital/analogue transceiver that seemed very poor in analogue mode and by the time it picked up a signal was in digital mode. Was good in digital mode but offered nothing extra on the pure digital transceivers.
Ortovox Patroller - Hybrid digital/analogue transceiver that offers nothing over digital models but a small range increase at the expense of simplicity.

They found the F1 to have by far the greatest range- and the Tracker to be the best bet for the average punter- which is why I bought one- and a shovel- and a probe- and a shovel, probe , transciever for the Mrs and a book or two on avalanche safety- which I read, and various videos, and articles about strategic shoveling- and why after all that I most frequently ski off piste with guides.

2007 - and excluding both the Mammut beacons (Pulse and Barryvox)

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yes- but a different type of review- including beacons not tested in the Canadian "study" which as reported here had no proper statistical analysis to actually say one way or the other whether any of the beacons was better or worse than the others

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geeo,

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All .. don't know if any of you guys will be in Les Arcs this season, but if you are, and we happened to 'go out' (loads of SH's in LA this coming season) I'd be very happy to swap my S1 with just about anything else - even if you hadn't use one before.
I'm outa here.

the pulse you love is on v 3.0 firmware, but i suppose that's just enhancements Shocked

You know it makes sense.

OK, Just one more... Ask your guide next time you go out, better with a reasonably sized group, to go to the avy park first. Compare your performance with others' . From my experience, you'll find 9/10 'buriels' with the S1 when the others are still trying to work out what a flux line actually is. I know, finding is just the start, but we're talking transceivers here, what happens after is a different thread.
BTW I'm in LA from the 15th Jan (for a fair while) and would be happy to demonstrate / compare - PM me if you want. I certainly will have second thoughts about doing bellocote or off the Aiguille Rouge with a 'punter' equipped with an F1 / M2 though. hey.. I'm getting on a bit, I want to live for next season.

Al'

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

That second reiew was based on the old V1 S1 as well. One of the big differences in the V2 was they clarrified the information for which direction to go and moved the buttons to make them even more logical (oh and they altered the hinge to make it easier to open wearing gloves, which is actually the ONLY operation required of the S1 to do a search

Judging a V2 S1 by looking at the V1, is about as sensible as judging the new tracker 2 by using a tracker 1. After all they look similar and work the same way dont they?

I'm always suspect about reviews by folks who sell the stuff they are reviewing, They never list the one important variables, ie profit margins on each brand

As for folks finding the S1 complicated, how the hell do they work the telly, Its has lots more buttons and options. How hard are 2 buttons to work out (next and enter). I doubt many users even need to read the manual. If you dont believe me the manual is free to download on the ortovox site. The DSP and Pulse are more complicated to operate, download their manuals and see for yourself

I'm also in Les Arcs in Mid March. Looks like the resort is only for S1 converts! Toofy Grin

A snowHead

Ok, I accept that the S1 has had improvements, (it needed them) which might even have been as a result of the feed back from the April 2007 loan period.
I only expressed my impression at the time. However what I didn't say was that my 10 year old pieps picked up the 2m buried signal a full 10m before the S1, not an opinion but fact.
I know that in April 2007 the Pulse worked better than the S1 straight out of the box.
Another factor on the day was that both the Pulse and S1 ran out of battery well before any of the old units, and yes I know that it was well after the survival time, but it is always nice to tidy up the mountain, I once had the misfortune to find a glove on a mountain but with a hand still in it!
The overriding thing that seems to come from this thread is, I have paid so much for this, if I don't say it is the best I'll look silly.
Next time you are out with a guide check to see what he or she is wearing.

A snowHead

Dypcdiver, but that is the entire point - guides with a high degree of regular training can use an analogue beacon with greater range without the delay in later search phases that us muppets would have.

The person you need to look at ain't the guide - it is the fastest person of similar expertise, training and practice opportunities to yourself.

If I want to know what to drive - I am not going to ask a pro-rally driver. I am going to ask a middle-aged bloke who drives 10k a year.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

stoatsbrother, Whilst I agree with you, this whole thing was started, because a guide said that the S1 was too complicated for the average punter.

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Dypcdiver sort of

but also because a paper was cited which gave the impression that one model was superior- but without any test of statistical significance- even though all the data to test significance was avaliable- which makes me think that there was no difference as if there had been it would have been mentioned.

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ed123, I just thought that I would bring to the table my (and 26 others) first hand experience to the discussion, for which I was attacked and told that that I was an idiot.
To clear up some misconceptions, I am not a guide, I do not own an S1 or Pulse, I did spend 14 weeks in the mountains last season and over the last 20 years I have averaged 10 weeks a year.

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Dypcdiver, yes I thought you were treated in a bit of a silly way and completely agree with

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ed123, Agreed on the trauma, even the S1 doesn't have a setting to stop that. wink

After all it is free

ed123,
thanks for the timely reminder that transceivers are only part of the solution.

All
glad to see we're back on slightly more sensible arguments now.
Interesting that two examples/studies from 2007 were quoted, without the posters appearing to notice this. I posted the original article precisely because it was recent. The whole point was that this was the first paper I'd found that
1 - tested with 'real' people and not just pro's
2 - was less than 2 years old
3 - was setup to be objective and controlled (no single incident/example can be considered representative unless it's fully automated)
Agree with Ed123 again that the 'statistical significance' could be looked at more thoroughly - as he seems to know what he's talking about, perhaps he could do that for the paper cited.

IMHO, I'd much rather ride with someone who 'knows what they're doing' - irrespective of what they're doing it with. I'm sure the stress of a real situation would significantly add to the 'find' times cited in the paper - it's one thing to practice on your own finding buried transceivers, but how do you practise (even at a basic level) organising 6 strangers to:
- put all their trans into 'search'
- start a pattern
- prep shovels and probes
- dig properly
- alert authorities
etc.... (and no, those won't all be in the 'right' order)
but that's a different discussion.

I'll be sticking with my DTS, and practising...

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The current Fall-Line has a transceiver review in by mountain guide Bruce Goodlad. We looked at most models on sale at the moment. The Ortovox M2 is now discontinued, as far as I know. I still use one, and lend my S1 to mates who have never practiced. It was upgraded two years ago to the new software and seems very reliable and easy to use. When the S1 came out it had 'issues' but these now seem to have been exorcised. To avoid all the 'how much is my life worth' debates you can win an S1 in this issue...

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fallliner, thanks- we do like your magazine btw. Mrs Ed is on the back page.

snow reports

What, she's an Easyjet ad?

back page not back cover or back inside cover....silly...

You know it makes sense.

http://pistehors.com has a 20 minute video about mountain safety and rescue. Some points I noted:
* comparing transceiver performance is interesting, but if there is only a 20 second difference is search times between models then probing and digging techniques are likely to be more important.
* if a transceiver search finds the transceiver less that one metre deep then just dig, do not bother probing.
* fascinating pictures of rescuing people from cable cars or chair lifts. New system where rescuer is delivered by helicopter. He clips onto car/chair and unclips from H. He then puts slings around up to five people, the H returns and takes all six away. Previously schemes take one or two people at a time. Hence speeding up the whole evacuation.
* pictures of the very top of the Matterhorn, including H dropping/lifting a person.

http://pistehors.com/news/ski/comments/0974-ikar-2009-zermatt1/

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Some more thoughts about the 'study'.

No details on how far away from the start of the search the test beacon was.

Simulated avalanche 30m x 50m. ie small and just about within range of most digital beacons.

If the subjects started at the edge then primary search- for a signal would be fast with all beacons.

If started further away -- ie 50-70m let alone 100-200m then some of the analogue but not digital beacons might be in range and reduce time of primary search.. The paper does not mention this aspect at all- which is a serious omission.

Needs that detail- and detail for example of time for primary, secondary and fine search etc.

I wouldn't base anything on the paper as presented in the thread.

A snowHead

The Mammut Pulse seems to be the beacon of choice here, (Whistler, BC) just make sure you go to a dealer who has the programmer (Here in Whistler it is the Escape Route in Market place) and get the latest upgrade, the same applies to any of the modern programmable transceivers.

Since this forum is back to a discussion of transceivers and not a slagging match Very Happy

, how about debating this: As the modern fad for the basic transceiver to become an 'all singing, all dancing tool', there has been a lot of concern in the industry that these functions such as compasses and altimeters will cause the transceiver to not be worn under clothes but to be accessible and hence vulnerable in just the sort of tumbling avy where they were meant to remain attached to their owner.

IKAR were consulted and in response said this:

Avalanche Rescue Transceiver as Combination Device

Dear Sirs,

We received knowledge that avalanche rescue transceiver manufacturers want to combine
the beacons with extra functions, not at last to succeed in higher retail numbers. That
the manufacturers are thereby willing to reduce the core function of “lifesaver” is from the
IKAR’s point of view incomprehensible.

Compass, altimeter, inclinometer are used in particular moments (poor visibility, snowfall,
difficulty finding the way, on steeper slopes) as well as in situations where avalanche danger
is present.

In a critical, not harmless, situation the avalanche rescue transceiver needs to be “protected”,
on the body. We rescuers don’t want to rescue avalanche beacons, but people.
Are – in a critical moment – transceivers in the hands instead of on the body we risk to
find only the device instead of the person.

The IKAR committee is unanimously of the opinion that the legal standard for avalanche
rescue transceivers needs to be worded in a way so that no extra functions reducing the
effectiveness can be added.

Yours sincerely,

Toni Grab
President IKAR

In discussions over the last year or so, there seems to be an argument that modern phones, with operating systems from Apple and Google etc with their increasing sophistication/computer power can take on most if not all of these extra functions, for example the iPhone store has compass, GPS, inclinometer apps already.

Since I don't have a 'modern' phone, I can't say first hand how well these work, but a return to transceivers as just transceivers seems to be technically possible. Now my concern is :I've always been told that one should turn phones off when skiing since they interfere with transceivers.. Any techies like to chime in? Can you turn the 'phone part off, while still running apps...?

Interesting times, eh? Razz

A snowHead

My mobile only effects my S1 within 8". It affects the tracker within 2ft and old pieps analogues within about 6ft. I-pod about the same. ipod effects all the time, phone only when transmitting or communicating with the cell

S1 has the other functions (it uses them internally), but Thermometer only shows the temp of under your coat, the inclinometer is a pain to use and the compass too slow. Also its too big to use conviantly as a tool for this

My mobile phone has all of these, Plus satski and much smaller, more conveniant.

I keep my transciever on my left front and phone on right side to keep distance. My walkie is near my transciever but its only on receive.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

colinmcc, interesting thoughts.

Playing around with the S1 makes it clear that the compass and the inclinometer (which has a tolerance of 5 degrees Shocked

) are integral to the way it functions in search mode. But should these functions not have separate displays?

The iphone inclinometer is certainly better, and would certainly work with the phone in "flight mode" but I am not sure if the compass would.

However I have seen enough "professionals" skiing with their beacon in a pocket which must be worse than wearing the thing in a proper harness and occasionally looking to see how high/cold you are.

And if the presence of extra functions made people wear beacons more - would that not be a good thing?

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Tried pulse (firmware version 3) at weekend, first time using any transciever, straight out of box, set to basic mode. training = read instructions and read up on general search techniques. Double burial 16M apart walk to first press mark walk to second simples.
Only thing that did not seem to work, although it is a feature of this device, was the direction arrow didnt always point behind when the burial was behind you, but hey if the number gets bigger turn around.

In basic mode it is as easy to use as a Tracker and there is no way you can accidently end up using an advanced feature.

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There must be a transciever app for the iphone surely wink

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

After all it is free

RPF, have a look at http://www.wildsnow.com/1773/avi-the-1st-avy-beacon-application-for-iphone/

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RPF, Brilliant .. must check for N97 - maybe I've wasted a load of cash!!

Help!!

Transceiver test 2009

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