 Poster: A snowHead
|
|
This thread is turning into a bit of an avalanche. It's difficult to breathe.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
| headcase wrote: |
| When I skied without guides in the past it was because I was in a position to - having full knowledge of the terrain conditions and weather patterns over the winter - I would never ski in area I as not familiar with. |
Hmm. If Jean-Luc Crétier offered to take me down some of the off piste itineraries behind the Bellecôte at La Plagne, I think I would still make my excuses. There are fantastic skiers and then there are guides. I'm not sure that we should be blurring the distinction.
Nope, sorry, don't buy that one! Your original premise was quite clear - skiing off piste without the "assistance and the experience of a qualified guide" is foolhardy.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
Ok so why are they getting into trouble then...if they are that well trained??
A little knowledge can be more dangerous than none.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
While all these incidents are tragic for the families of those involved, they really are extremely rare - just ask the insurance companies who do annual multi-sports cover, where martial arts, gymnastics, rugby etc are all higher risk than skiing. And you can reduce the already tiny risks from skiing by following a few simple rules. These are mine (but yours might be different of course!):
1) Don't ski offpiste at risk 4 or 5
2) Don't ski offpiste in less than very good visibility
3) Don't ski anything you can't afford to fall down
So some of the Daily Mail style paranoia is unjustified. Remember that the recent snowfalls have been quite unusual, and no more than 50 or so people will die in avalanches across the Alps from skiing per season, out of millions of travellers. You're probably more likely to die on the way to the resort...
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
headcase -  - but it was you that proposed the idea that it would be foolish not to use a guide in the first place!!!!
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Fri 28-01-05 15:24; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
Being totally relliant on a guide is also foolhardy! However, I do agree with headcase's position. Even when I go to Val D'Isere, where I believe I know the off piste as well as anybody, I almost always take a guide because I don't know the history of the snowpack in the same way that they do.
However, I do think that there are those who ski off piste a lot with guides who still don't learn anything and leave it all to the guide. They are just passengers along for the ride. And what happens when the guide has a serious fall, gets caught in an avalanche or something similar. Its then too late to shout "get me out of here!"
There is also the whole issue of guide competence and as PG says, there are people who I would never allow to guide me off piste. I am sure that many of you will remember the story of the British doctors killed on the Tarrentaise tour from Tignes 10 years ago. While I didn't know them, I did know the instrucor who was killed. A really nice guy with a young family but he was an instructor, not a guide. The rest of the story is second hand and I appologise if either the person I now refer to is on here or some others know better than I.
As I have been told by 2 senior staff members at SCGB, the doctor who survived was a member and knew a bit about skiing off piste. he was not happy with the spacings of the group and was skiing last leaving a substancial gap. It seems this knowledge and a bit of luck saved his life. I hope the story as told to me is correct but it goes to show, blind faith can be misplaced and I wouldn't hesitate for one minute to question a guide about what and how we were doing something. I have done this with a good friend when we were social skiing and he changed the route.
While on one hand I argue that it is up to the ski industry to better educate people about the dangers, I don't believe that you can totally abdicate reponsibility just by paying somebody some money.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
OK, my opinion. snowHead's are not typical English holiday skiers. The people I go with, and have met, go on holiday to enjoy themselves. They take group lessons for the first 2 or 3 years and that's it. They don't hire guides. They don't service their own skis, if indeed they own skis. They don't scan snowforecast everyday all winter, record Chanell 4 in the middle of the night, or think about snow all year. If they know anything at all about avalanches at all, they only know (vaguely) about the 1-5 risk. I know - I was one of them until a couple of years ago!
They, (and I include myself in that) do not go off piste. Well, of course, skiing between pistes doesn't count  , oh and when the ski rep tells you the way back to the chalet by " just ducking under the rope off XYZ piste and skiing the track..... coming out just above...". Sound familiar? Oh, and when your mates say "this bit's dead easy over there".
As TB said, education, education, education. A lot of people are not reckless. They just don't realise the danger. Everything I now know about avalanches is thanks to snowHeads. So thanks, guys. But not everyone reads your advice.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Then perhaps every ski resort should have a Henry (or Hans or Sophia)to give an avalanche talk. In every ski station in every country there are experts qualified to do this, it could even be an extra level to qualify to for ski instructors maybe. I would imagine that most of the attendees of Henrys lectures are itermediate skiers looking to ski off piste for the first few times up to advanced skiers (ie not beginners). Surley this could, on a Sunday evening, become a great part of a weeks skiing experience with apres-lecture to follow of course. I think more visible and dominant signage is also needed at the bottom of every lift in every country. I can understand that ski resorts want people to come and don't want, in particular, beginners to become scared away (no swimmers on red flag beaches!). Come on ESF here's your chance to start shining. Drink/Driving became socially unacceptable by education alone.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
maggi,
Good post - couldn't agree more. When I first went skiing, I had absolutely no idea about avalanche risk - no-one told me and I didn't know enough to ask (not sure I would have known who to ask anyway). I first skied with a bunch of friends who had been a few times before. Guess what? They didn't know either.
To make me even more complacent, on about my fourth day of skiing, my instructor took our class under a rope which was closing off a section of off-piste due to avalanche risk. The instructor was born and bred on that mountain and (presumably) knew that it was safe enough - but we weren't to know that.
As most package-trip first-timers probably do ski school to start with, why not make a basic mountain awareness session a compulsory part of one of the lessons. Even if it was really basic and you've heard it before, at least it might go some way to making people more aware of the risks involved. Let's face it - I wasn't really aware of the risks for my first several weeks of skiing. A basic awareness lesson might have made me rather less reckless (but I doubt it  )
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
A fifth victim was claimed by Tuesday's avalanches - see the PisteHors report. Raphaël Potin was boarding alone, in the Couloir de la Table, Val d'Isère.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
Just come across this on another site, apparently the regional president of the Alps (???) has declared that off-piste riding is a big NO NO BANNED!! No specific link to an article on a website, just from the horses mouths out there. Apparently the ban started yesterday. No mountain guides are allowed to work off-piste, obviously it doesn't stop people going off-piste by themselves but their insurances would be invalid.
http://www.adrenalintrip.net/forums/viewtopic.php?siteid=1&topicdays=45&topic=82157&forum=1&9
According to that comment and others on www.snowboardclub.co.uk, they say that most people are respecting this ban. Maybe this has heightened everyones concerns rather quickly?
While searching for information about this ban, i found that this had happened back in 1999 according to the bbc website: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/279417.stm
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Thu 27-01-05 22:43; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
Davidof reports over at PisteHors :
| Quote: |
A father and son were hit by an avalanche in the ski resort of le Tourmalet close to the Pic du Midi observatory in the Hautes Pyrénées. They had taken an off-piste short cut at the bottom of the Comé-l'Ayse piste in the Barèges sector.
The avalanche struck at 14h30. The son, aged 28 years old, was not wearing an avalanche beacon and was only found after 90 minutes of probe search by rescuers. He was buried under 250cm of snow. Météo-France has recorded 50cm of fresh snow in the mountain range and an alert had been broadcast. The avalanche risk was high.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Dan, I can find nothing on this, and I've looked on French Google as well?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
I am sceptical about this. The link says that the ban came in on 26th but I know that Alpine Experience in Val D'Isere were working yesterday as their news page gives details of the day's skiing. These guys aren't cowboys and would play it by the book.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
PG, same here, i couldn't find anything either. Thought being "on the ground" you would have heard something??? Seems a tad strange???
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
Les Clés du Paradiski - The Keys to Paradiski...
There is a superb new hardback book by Didier Givois, high mountain guide, a comprehensive study of the off-piste itineraries around the Paradiski area. It is only available as far as I can see from www.amazon.fr?tag=amz07b-21 - or directly from Didier Givois himself - see bottom of post for contact details). It is written in French, with an excellent English translation. A beautiful work with some stunning photography, detailed descriptions of all the off-piste routes, some chilling warnings, as well as excellent advice. It describes how you should equip yourself, how and why avalanches occur, what to do in the event of an avalanche - both as victim and as witness. As Didier writes, "there is no greater danger than the ignorance of danger."
One description of how the snowpack evolves is particularly apt at the moment, as it describes almost exactly what is happening right now in the northern French Alps in terms of weather and conditions. By all accounts we should allow for considerably more than the standard two or three days before venturing off-piste in certain areas, as things stand......
| Quote: |
Let's look at snowpack evolution in a simplified manner:
The sky darkens and a snowstorm begins. The pretty, star-shaped flakes become entangled while piling up on the ground, their branches criss-cross and they mesh together. Snow can hold onto surfaces that are close to vertical, thereby defying gravity. The layer thickens and then settles under the increased mass. The small crystal dendrites break or sublimate, the meshing decreases, and the snow begins to slide down the steepest slopes, and avalanches are set off spontaneously. The front disappears, the sky clears and the cold returns. At first the snowpack will seem frozen by the cold. But the slightest pressure, sometimes almost insignificant, can break this delicate balance, for example the passage of a skier or snowboarder. Afterwards, the "aging" of the snow will considerably stabilize the snowpack and the risk decreases significantly. A new equilibrium is reached.
However, if the temperatures stay very cold for a long time, the surface snow will remain as powder snow. This is excellent in the short term but more worrisome for the future. The powder snow, when covered by new layers of snow, becomes a fragile layer that can trigger the release of the largest slab of snow. The greater the difference in temperature and/or the thinner the snowpack (maximum gradient), the faster and more marked the metamorphosis: the snow crystals are transformed into small, glass-like particles that cannot connect (plane faces, depth hoar). The layer of snow has no cohesion and becomes very fragile, and any new snow falling onto this layer will be highly unstable (a collapse could be propagated in all directions at the speed of sound). This scenario is unfortunately fairly common in the autumn and early winter when the first snowfalls are followed by anticyclone periods. The cold settles on the shaded slopes of the mountains and weakens the snowpack. This dry snow can affect slope stability all winter long, unless heavy snowfalls trigger large avalanches that clear the slopes to ground level, wiping the slate clean. Conversely, a winter that starts off with heavy snowfalls followed by mild weather bodes well for the safety of freeriders during the season.
Conclusion: the slopes that experience important daily temperature variations stabilize quite quickly, while the others should be looked at suspiciously, even a long time after a snowfall. Avalanches statistics confirm this observation, since 60% of accidents occur on slopes with orientations covering one quarter of the compass dial (NW-N-NE)!.... |
Didier's website www.givois.com is in French, and the order form (and quoted price) is for orders within France only, but he will send the book abroad. You have to email him - info[at]givois.com (replace [at] by @)
His description of the Lanchettes route (predominently north-east facing) mentions that it is not a particularly hazardous descent, when conditions are right, in terms of difficulty - ie a fall would not be too dangerous as the slopes are relatively 'gentle'. However on Didier's avalanche risk scale of 1 to 4, it scores the full 4 for its upper section. It is
| Quote: |
| "located almost entirely on a route with regular avalanches. It includes ... couloirs that channel avalanches coming from slopes that can remain dangerous for a long time." The 'Lanchettes' "is a classic route that sometimes looks like a mogul run! After a heavy fall it must be looked on with a suspicious eye: all of the upper slopes are laden with snow that accumulates under the wind. "Lanche" and "Lanchettes" in local patois means avalanche!" |
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Fri 28-01-05 10:50; edited 2 times in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
| Quote: |
"Lanche" and "Lanchettes" in local patois means avalanche!
|
Nuf said
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
PG, great article - thanks for posting it here.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
Who is the director of the Alps? I have spoken to the tourist office in Val this morning and they say that people are allowed off piste, but it is advised that they are better to stay on piste! Do you have any more information?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
dolphingirl, there isn't an "Alps director". Those with the authority to close a resort to off-piste skiing in France other than the lift company itself would include, starting at the bottom of the political hierarchy, the local mayor, the president of the departmental assembly, or the president of the regional assembly (several departments). I imagine that the latter would have the power to overrule the former.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
Thanks PG - this "director" is mentioned in the post above, and having lived in the Alps for three years it did seem a bit odd. I am trying to find out if this off-piste ban is true - does anyone have any further information? One of the lives lost was the wonderful Mikey Lewin:
http://www.natives.co.uk/news/2005/01/27mikelewin.htm
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Yes, kuwait ian and flying squirrel were saying how he was the life and soul of the party at the 'pub quiz' just the night before at Will's bar in Plan Peisey.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hi all - pleased to be safely back in Q8 and catching up on things (slowly). Just a few short comments ...... as the 'snowHead on the spot' in Will's bar before even some of the Ski Beat Team knew the sad news, another 'snowHeads scoop' like the Vd'I cable car incident was possible. However, I made sure Mikey's parents had been informed before calling PG who then checked out more details with his contacts in the resort before posting, without in fact naming the dead man. The purpose of the thread was not 'tabloid journalism' but to reinforce the need to take heed of avalache risks and to raise awareness that these things do not just happen to strangers, hundreds of miles away, and only known to us from grappling the depths of Google.
It seems to be succeeding as we are on Page 3 now. Yet as PG said much earlier, the clear warnings of the Avalanche Risk Level on almost every lift in Les Arcs were not deterring people from putting themselves and others at risk. Here we are largely preaching to the converted but something more has to be done to inform the uniformed. (And Mikey was not uninformed - his case was special - see below).
flying squirrel is too busy running the bar to post here these days but I am sure he won't mind me quoting a couple of things he said the day after the death ...
| Quote: |
| Mikey was in a place he chose to be in and paid the price for that decision |
| Quote: |
| If you want to ski off piste so soon after major new snowfalls , you should stick to the lower level 'runs' under the lifts in the trees |
One small snippet of good news - Mikey's companions were apparently untouched by the fatal slide Mikey seems to have triggered.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
kuwait_ian, the inference of your opening para. is absolutely correct. There are important protocols in reporting events of this magnitude (irrespective of the number of victims involved - in this case one).
He sounds like he was a great guy. What a terrible tragedy for his loved ones and friends, both those in the resort and back home.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Thanks PG - had only skimmed the whole thread. The Natives chatroom is filled with friends and relations - he will indeed be sorely missed...
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
More coverage of the recent avalanche incidents in France has been posted on PisteHors.com, including a report on the rescue services who pick up the pieces.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
Can't stop to chat - the snow's too good and the off-piste is great. There appears to be no ban that I have been aware of, at least not in Chamonix, Verbier or Super St Bernard where I have been guiding for the last few days.
Quick advice - avalanche risk 4+, get a guide or go to the snowpark. Don't even bother cutting the corner through that bit that looks really nice.
The wind that came with this dump has ruined it, so wait til later this week when the next dump is through and it should be better....
Will post more when I get the chance, but good thread and glad you are all thinking about it - tell your mates too by the way!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
The number of people ducking under the ropes at Les Arcs (top of Varet station) while piste secours stood and watched was slightly unbelievable the day after the big snow. This was for closed black runs. Having seen the vary small size of a fatal avalanche in Davos a coupld of years back (the displaced snow, not actual fall), I'd never risk it - even a minor mishap is a problem as your insurance is invaildated, in most cases.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
I'm afraid that i have to disagree with all of you who seem to think that the person in question in Les Arcs put other peoples lives at risk and that he was unable to read the warnings As somebody who knew the deceased and who knew him for the full season prior to this that he was working in Les Arcs, he knew the area well was a very good skiier and boarder and did no more wrong than the rest of us that rode off-piste that day.
I don't think there is any need to pick at the decisions that a very capable rider made on what unfortunately turned out to be a fateful day. Do all those criticising worry too much about the rescue staff who may have to walk onto a busy road if you are in a car crash.
Unfortunatley these things happen and i am only sorry that it happened to such a great person and his poor family.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
freerider.. it's already been mentioned a lot earlier in this thread, but I talking to the Les Arcs piste security director that same evening. He told me of the sense of foreboding he had when he saw the first rays of the sun that morning... sunshine following right behind heavy snow, winds, very low temps... he described it as a day when fatalities were guaranteed. Sun and powder seem to be an irresistible combination, despite the risks.
The route in question was, as he put it, one of the last places he would have ventured that day. Riding skills were not a factor, the combination of conditions and location were. And no one knows the conditions and resort better than the guy in charge - and his view was that it wasn't fate that decided the events of that day. This was echoed by a couple of local guides, who said it was an unacceptable risk on the day in question.
Given the above, I can't really agree that these things just 'happen'. I'm sorry for the people involved in all the accidents that day, but surely it's important to point out that it wasn't just bad luck. The alternative might encourage some people to take risks when they shouldn't go anywhere near some off-piste routes.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
freerider
I am sorry about the death of your friend. I know what it is like. However, just because he was a friend and a good rider doesn't change the facts of the avalanche. Surely its better to talk about it objectively, learn any lessons there are to learn and in that way, some good might come out of such a waste of life.
It does beg a question though. Why do people who do know better end up dead? Take the boarder killed in Val D'Isere on "Orientation". He had worked there for 10 years and was an instructor. Yet he skied a slope of about 35 degrees which is well known to get a lot of wind blown snow forming slab. I cannot understand how he could have thought it was safe. He had the experience and local knowledge. I bet he wouldn't have taken clients down the run. So what drives a person to do something like that?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
SimonN, Why do people climb very high mountains, ride motorbikes at a dangerous speed, have unprotected sex with a stranger etc etc. They take a gamble that it will not happen to them. Sad to say but quite often the gamble does not come up in their favour. We live in such a risk managed world that it comes as a shock when people gamble with their lives, but some people will always take that risk.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
Freerider - am sorry about the death of your friend, but in forums like this we will discuss what happens in the mountains - even the tragic events. As a group - the people here are particularly conscious of the dangers associated with skiing and most people here want to learn from events like this. How can we pass on to as many people the information to make better judgements about what is safe for both themselves and other people who might be in the same environment.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
In such cases are people actively gambling with their own safety, or do they become temporarily blind to the risks because of other factors? On the occasions I've got into dangerous situations (not skiing, sadly not good enough to ski dangerous off-piste!) I've been blinded by "Go Fever". It's not that I'm foolishly ignoring the risks and gamble with my life - I somehow failed to see that the risks were high and therefore wasn't aware of the potential danger I was in. Away from the the situation when the "Go Fever" has diminished the risks are once again easily recognised and you wonder how you ever let yourself get into such danger.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
I believe in the tempory blindness theory rather than a wreckless abandon one! It does take a lot of discepline to stay safe all the time. I also think that as you get older, you gain more respect for life and become more aware of danger. Certainly having children has done that for me.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
rob@rar.org.uk and SimonN, speaking from my own experience i certainly used to take more risks with climbing than i am prepared to do these days. I am naturally cautious and i can think of only one situation where i took myself out of a totally safe situation and into a situation which was foreseeably dangerous to the extent that i still question whether it was wise. Then, i certainly did not consciously decide to risk my life, but the appeal of what i was planning to do took precedence. The fact that i was alone was also relevant as i was not endangering anyone else at the time (although people would have had to pick up the pieces and people i knew would be affected if anything happened) - and perhaps that explains why guides will be prepared to take themselves down a face that (you hope) they would not take clients down.
there were many other times when i did something which i knew could easily result in a serious accident, but that was when i was already in a dangerous situation and it was a case of voluntarily taking the next step that was required to get out of a dangerous situation - that is a totally different situation.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
It is a physiological change in our brain chemistry as we age that changes the way we view risk/danger (primarily in men). It's not a conscious thing but once recognised, can be overridden, but that is deliberate. Many men in mid life suddenly recognise this change and start to behave very stupidly in taking risks that their bodies and senses are ill prepared to cope with.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Interesting piece by davidof (PisteHors). More rumblings about the possibility of banning off piste have followed last week's incidents...
Avalanche Deaths Spark Call for Off Piste Ban
| Quote: |
| A heavy tribute was paid to avalanches last week, six deaths in the Savoie region and one in the Pyrénées. The French mountains are seen as a bastion of freedom for backcountry users but the sequence of tragedies has relaunched the debate as to whether there should be more controls on off-piste skiing... |
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
Whilst any death on the slopes is tragic, and recent conditions have brought this home dramatically, aren't we in danger of losing some perspective here? Of course the actions of a few put a strain on rescue services which impact on everyone, but better education is preferable to banning. Where does the banning arguement end? Suspension of rescue services when the conditions dicate? That would very quickly make people think twice, perhaps.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
An article in today's Cheshire Online
"Mikey died doing what he loved best"
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
