 Poster: A snowHead
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If one is stuck with a 2WD and does not have the space for storing a set of winter tyres at home then the best solution is to choose the tyres suitable for the snow condition at the expense of a slightly lower maximum speed and possibly a little bit more road noise too
This is done by selecting a tyre intended for "all seasons". Most of these tyre will have M&S (mud & snow) block pattern and the suitable ones will have a large number of small zig zag micro grooves known as sips that can trap/grip the snow to "increase" friction.
High speed tyres need to have continuous rings (there goes the M&S blocks) for stability and minimum road noise. They are bald at the surface (slick tyre is the best) and so no micro grooves! Such tyres are invariably come in low profile with short rubber walls. Thin and high profile tyres deflect more laterally but the owner can deflat the tyre pressure to increase traction on the snow.
When a skier intending to take the car to snow ground he/she should check the tyre's ability to travel in winter condition before the purchase. This invariably leads to tyres with lesser maximum speed than the sport vehicle can command but it is a good compromise.
Also change the all season tyres early and make sure they have plenty treads before embarking the skiing holiday.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| saikee wrote: |
This invariably leads to tyres with lesser maximum speed than the sport vehicle can command but it is a good compromise.
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You sure thats legal ???
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Pretty sure that using a tyre not rated as high as your car requires (in terms of top speeed) could be an insurance issue in the event of a claim (if the fact was raised, and whether or not it was a factor in an accident).
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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midgetbiker, Yep you're right, its not illegal but could invalidate your insurance
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| midgetbiker wrote: |
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I've only got a 4x4 pickup because....................
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Hmm, nothing to do with it being an LGV, and the associated tax and VAT rules then  . |
shhhhhhhhhhhhhh
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DB, Hired a Renault Scenic with winter tyres last year and that had a tendancy to swap ends going downhill. The driving dynamics are down to the high centre of gravity of MPV's and 4X4's
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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DB, agreed and in general I agree with your comments on driving safely on snow. My remark was tongue-in-cheek...I'd have assumed that good driving on a public road should mean no crashes, rather than 4 in 2 years. Of course, good driving on a steep snowy road may mean something else than good driving on a flat tarmac one at +20 Celsius...
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Equipping a car with tyres less than the maximum capability of the car speed should not cause an insurance invalidation because I believe that is what the majority of the Bristish do perhaps not knowingly. How many of us stick with the stock tyres and never change the make?
If a car has a top speed of 150mph requiring a Z-rated tyre but the owner fits a H-rated winter tyres that are only good up to 130mph then as long as the vehicle is driven genuinely below the 130mph then I do not see why the claim can be denied. If the owner knowingly drives the car beyond the speed limit of the tyres then he/she is committing suicide and that is a totally different matter.
The fact of the matter is winter tyres have not been advanced to a stage that can match the majority of the fast sport car speed capabilities. Most car owners when selecting winter tyres will have to settle for tyres with a lower speed limit. SUV use various tyre sizes on different alloy rims. Many of them have no hope of getting a set of a matching winter tyres which are only manufactured in a limited range of sizes..
In UK the choices of winter tyres are even more limited due to the lack of demand.
If an insurance company can deny a claim from the owner of a car to equip with anything other than the stock tyre of identical rating then many expensive fast cars owners will be forced to risk their lives on snow ground with tyres good only for speed.
A quote from this web page
"However winter tyres should not be used all the year round. Current summer tyres come into their own for performance once the road temperature consistently stays above seven degrees. Winter tyres also have a lower speed rating than summer tyres so it is not a good idea to cover long distances at high speeds in warm weather using a winter compound"
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Yet another classic thread 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| horizon wrote: |
Ouch. Can you tell me which mountain roads you're driving on? Obviously they're not safe for the public if good driving can lead to four crashes in two years... |
New Zealand. Most of the smaller ski fields just have narrow 4wd tracks going up to the base buildings, and it can get pretty sketchy getting back down if you are up there when a storm comes in.
Last year, I came down from Ohau after 30cm fell in a couple of hours, I was doing 5km/h, really burly icebreaker chains on front and back wheels, stopped because the car in front of me had slid off into a ditch, put the truck in P, and handbrake on, got out to help the guy, turned around, and my truck was sliding off down the road  With the kids in it.
Had to jump back in and get the wheels moving so I could steer it down. The cars behind me took 9 hours to get down 16km of mountain road, chained up to the grader, and lowered down. The road has sheer drops of hundreds of metres in places, single lane, no crash barriers, which is quite common here. It can get pretty scary, and not using your brakes is an absolute necessity some days. The ski fields can't afford to have really flash access roads or gondolas, but it does keep the crowds and lift prices to a minimum.
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hang11,
Now that is what I call a real test for tyres, snow chains and the 4x4 driving mechanism!
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You know it makes sense.
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One of my most memorable offs at a mountain was at Mt Lyford 2 years ago, first day of the season, epic powder, I was one of the first cars up there, pulled over to let the old guy who owns the ski field pass on the way down, and the whole track collapsed under my truck, and it slid sideways over the edge. I had to jump out the back door, the back wheels were up in the air, level with my head, and I'm 6'3"
It turned out that they had a chopper up there doing some filming the day before, and they had flattened the gravel bank off at the side of the road so it didn't show up as much in the film, so what looked like road was actually just loose dirt, and the wide looking bit of road actually wasn't.
The grader driver showed up to pull my truck back on to the road with a Landcruiser, and that went over the edge too, and he had to jump out the passenger window, served him right for being a bit of dick head at his job though. We finally got them all back up on the wheels and on the road using a bulldozer with chains round the suspension arms on the trucks, and pulling them sideways. What could have been a nightmare turned out OK, getting to play with some big toys, and they gave me a free day pass
Anyway, having spent a lot of time on mountain roads in a 4wd with chains on, my take on the whole argument would be that for ability on snowy tracks, as long as you don't need the ground clearance, the best vehicle for it is a Subaru Forrester with snow tyres. If the going gets tough, diamond pattern chains on the front, ladder chains on the back, and don't use the brakes, and it will get you up or down most stuff. It's a nice light vehicle, with a useable enough 4wd system.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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hang11,
Funny you should say that. I have run the Mitsubish Shogun (could be called Pajero in NZ) for 7 years and have changed to a Subaru Outback this year. Got myself a set of chains. Will find out the difference myself soon.
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Poster: A snowHead
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If you go to any NZ ski field, you will see more Soobie Outbacks than anything else in the car parks, they're very capable. I've had Pajeros on and off over the last few years, but mostly off , and blown two engines in them. Never again.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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johnnyh,
Johnnyh - I own a Jeep (2006 Grand Cherokee) and will be driving to the 3 valleys at the end of March. Like you I don't overestimate the capabilities of 4X4s for although I've easily ploughed through snow covered lanes in the UK, when it comes to driving over thin wet snow traction on standard issue UK tyres can be minimal and negotiating Alpine gradients (especially downhill!) concerns me. I've looked at snow tyres but reports are varied and assume that chains are the real answer. I'm running on 245x65xR17 Goodyear Wranglers and was hoping for a recommendation on which snow chains to opt for. Unashamedly I am somewhat protective of my alloys and wondered whether there was a snow chain that wouldn't end up scratching the hell out of them. Grateful for any advice - thanks.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Sqski, Jeep's Quadratrac2 4x4 system is among the best on snow (ignore any incoming LR evangelists, they have mostly escaped from institutions) and mated with winter tyres or snow tyres, pretty unstoppable. I have a brand new set of chains in mine that only made it out of the bag 3 seasons ago to check they were all there. Got two years and 35k out of a set of Vredestein Wintrac4Extreme and have recently renewed the rubber with Goodyear Ultragrip - both really impressive. Thing to note though is the deterioration in grip as the tread diminishes - they start with 8mm, below 4mm the grip falls away. Keep mine on summer and winter and tales of extreme wear in summer are, in my experience, a load of BS.
Your plan with chains is OK if it's really bad and everyone is creeping around at a snails pace but you'll soon wish you had the appropriate rubber when things get moving. So, personally, I go with winter tyres and a cheap set of chains (that you'll probably never use but plod might like to see that you have them).
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
pretty unstoppable
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not a great recommendation, especially when travelling downhill.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I have driven about 7 trips with a Shogun (called Pajero or Montero elsewhere) before doing 3 European trips with the Subaru. I could not obtain winter tyres for the Shogun then so I always used all season tyres which proved adequate without the chains in all 7 skiing trips to the Alps. Subaru has been the same but I do have winter tyres for the Soobie.
The difference was very small and I found this out two weeks ago in Cervinia.
Normally with a Shogun I can go into spaces other cars would not dare, say with a deep pile of snow. Shogun can do it because its tyres are large plus it got low range gears (thus doubling the torque in low gear).
The Subaru had failed me this time. I was actually ploughing into the snow going forward and backward to use the car to compact the snow so that it would be easier for me to get out but the Subaru got stuck because it couldn't overcome the small thickness of the snow slab at the front or the rear of the car. Had my Subaru got low range gear it might have ba better chance.
So I think a full fledged 4x4 wins at the end. However driving on steep gradients the lighter Subaru has a small vertical load on the snow and needs correspondingly less friction to develop traction. Thus the requirement for the snow to grip the tyre is less than the Shogun which is almost a tonne heavier.
To me the winter tyre comes first. Having 4x4 mechanism save time to fix snow chains which could be used in really heavy snow conditions.
Drivers on 2WD vehicles relying solely on chains have a difficult decision to make and that is when to fit them. Often at the time when the chains are needed it would be in a difficult situation (say not able to get up a slope) stopping all the other traffic.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
Sqski, Jeep's Quadratrac2 4x4 system is among the best on snow (ignore any incoming LR evangelists, they have mostly escaped from institutions) and mated with winter tyres or snow tyres, pretty unstoppable. I have a brand new set of chains in mine that only made it out of the bag 3 seasons ago to check they were all there. Got two years and 35k out of a set of Vredestein Wintrac4Extreme and have recently renewed the rubber with Goodyear Ultragrip - both really impressive. Thing to note though is the deterioration in grip as the tread diminishes - they start with 8mm, below 4mm the grip falls away. Keep mine on summer and winter and tales of extreme wear in summer are, in my experience, a load of BS.
Your plan with chains is OK if it's really bad and everyone is creeping around at a snails pace but you'll soon wish you had the appropriate rubber when things get moving. So, personally, I go with winter tyres and a cheap set of chains (that you'll probably never use but plod might like to see that you have them). |
Thanks Bode S - will certainly look to replace with either the wintrac or ultragrip when the time comes - thanks for the tip. Any advice on which chains to go with to avoid damage to my alloy wheels?
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Drivers on 2WD vehicles relying solely on chains have a difficult decision to make and that is when to fit them
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that's very true, but I still have that dilemma sometimes, when the roads are very tricky, although I have snow tyres. I thought I'd blown it a few weeks ago, when I had to drive right off the single ploughed section of the road to avoid a ski bus coming down towards me. I had no traction to get back onto the centre of the road - I had to drop back a bit onto a flatter section and reverse back out onto the centre of the road, then get going very, very, slowly with no foot on the gas at all. If there'd been more traffic, and no room to do that, I'd have caused a holdup, getting out to put the chains on. I'd have felt a right twerp.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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FAQ
