in this clip - watch what happens at the very end of it, he almost tries the beginning of a 360 but your can see that on his toe edge he will simply fall over on to his face if he continues it through
Ah, glad you've finally looked at it (I pointed you at it at 12:23). Every single turn he's doing what you've said is disastrous, i.e. riding the downhill edge. Th reason he doesn't do a 360 at the end (other than the simple reason that he wants to stop ) is that he doesn't have enough speed to continue it, and nothing to do with any of the arguments you've been advancing. And exactly the same would apply if he were on skis.
Actually, I think your arguments are even more ridiculous in that a toeside turn should actually be easier to balance than when standing inline, as you have way more backwards movement at your knees (>90 degrees) than you have sideways at your waist (unless you're a gymnast/dancer), and the hinge is closer to the balance point. Even heelside you have more forwards bend than sideways - so I think your body movement/balance arguments are completely specious. Skiers do still have the advantage though that they have two edges, so can accommodate errors to some degree by adjusting pressure between the two edges.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
GrahamN wrote:
rob@rar, actually every single pressure or edged turn you make is all about putting pressure on the edges through your boots - there's no other way to transfer the forces between your body and the snow (since handstands don't work too well ).
From a physics point of view I agree, but in the context of this discussion I was talking about whether you need to actively push against the snow or simply absorb the forces that build up because, for example, you are turning across your line of momentum. I can extend very early in the turn to create pressure, or I can flex very early in the turn to absorb and manage that pressure. Yes there is a action and reaction in both cases, but the inputs and outcomes of these two movements are very different.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
rob@rar, agreed. And the important point is the one you made earlier (that rayscoops seems to have a huge problem in understanding), that the force transmitted through those boots required to keep us engaged with the snow in a carve arises primarily from the shape and speed of the turn, and it is largely irrelevant whether we are facing across or along the plank(s).
GrahamN you obviously have not got a clue what I am talking about. I can carve exactly the same as that guy in the clip, and in snowboarding terms he is always leaning up the slope on the correct edge as carves his turns, except through the transitions, this carving is completely different to trying to turn a board through 360 on the same edge - you simply end up facing the wrong way for the edge you are on, if you watch when he finishes his final turn he tries to turn up the slope and you can see that his body weight is beginning to leaning down the slope whilst on his toe edge and he has to stop. It is physically impossible for him to lean up the slope on his toe edge whilst facing down the slope and this is why a 360 is in my view impossible. Please get a video to prove me wrong otherwise go get a board and try it for your self
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
GrahamN, I know about this stuff as I'm the consummate "park 'n rider" I'm pretty lazy on skis and tend to just use the forces that build up from steering the skis across my line of momentum.
rayscoops, and you obviously have not got a clue about either mechanics or the English language, or are also blind. Do "snowboarding terms" redefine left as right, up as down, black as white? In the first half of every single turn in that clip he is leaning down the slope balanced on the downhill edge - exactly what you say is not possible. Just look at his ar$e position whenever he starts a heelside turn, way downhill from his board. And the Extreme Carving guys (I assume you have not bothered looking at any of those clips) just take it further. If you think that is just "transition", then I suggest you start re-examining your understanding of basic concepts - as this is most likely the root of your misunderstanding here. All this wittering on about the "wrong edge" is just rubbish - and three of us have tried telling you this. Yes it's virtually impossible to sit still on that edge, and that is exactly the same on skis as it is on a board (actually no, it's goingto be a lot easier on a transverse board because you have the greater range of movement flexing at the knees or waist - it is pretty much impossible on skis or an inline board or skwal), but that's NOT what's being asked for. It's the centripetal/fugal forces that allow you to do just that when turning.
There's none so dumb as those who won't see what's in front of them. For one last time, the fundamental point, on two planks or one, is that if you are carving such that you are turning downhill (whether you are currently pointing downhill or uphill) then you are on a downhill edge, and your CoM is downhill too. You will only fall over if you are going too slowly. You do not lean up the slope, althouhg you may angulate to some degree to help maintain balance. The other two appear to have given up trying to get it through to you, and that's what I'm going to do now. (And rob@rar is just too nice a guy to tell you you're talking crap)
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
GrahamN I bow my head to your greater boarding knowledge, now go get a vid of a boarder doing a 360 on the same edge -
After all it is free
After all it is free
rayscoops wrote:
now we are talking, on the flat it would be technically possible becasue you would not be on the wrong edge as there is no 'up slope/down slope' edge, but I would think that it would be difficult to get that inertia driven 'swoop' that get from a slope to complete the 360.
So, how flat does flat have to be before you think it's impossible? What degree slope?
Just for interest, let's say you as a boarder are traversing at speed directly across the slope, not going up or down, just across. You'll be on your uphill edge, right? So you don't slip down the hill? Now, what if you want to carve a turn down the slope. What edge would you start the turn on, and which way would you lean initially before you go through the fall-line?
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You would stay on you up hill edge for a while, then as turn in to the fall line you would flatten the board out and change edge as you cross the fall line, effectively going back on to you new up hill edge, you could then traverse at speed across the slope and do the same again, turn towards the fall line on the up hill edge and as you cross the fall line you will change the edge again. You would always be leaning with the same up slope bias as when you are traversing until you get to a point before the fall line where you have to start to rock from one edge to the next and as you change edge you then lean up the slope again, if you do not you will fall down the slope
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads on Sun 30-03-08 23:32; edited 1 time in total
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Sideshow_Bob wrote:
http://youtube.com/v/Vo8t-cWDvyY - where does this guy change edge?
I am on my Blackberry and can not watch it, is he on a snowboard or alpine board?
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Ah, you're describing skidded turns. GrahamN posted a link to a video where a boarder is definitely leaning down the slope on the downhill edge - if you have enough speed and a decent sidecut you carve your turn and don't fall down the mountain.
Try looking up a guide on the internet on how to carve turns on a snowboard. Google shows some good basic ones.
Now you'll be ready to link carved turns. Once you have carved your way back up, roll your board onto its downhill edge. Yes, it's downhill edge. In most cases, this would cause a wipeout but with carving, the board's sidecut will pull you into a carved turn. To link turns smoothly together, adjust the amount you turn up the slope and use the shape of the turn to control your speed.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
No, I am describing a clean change from one edge to the next.You can ride down the mountain with turns maybe up to 45 degrees to the slope but you have to change edge then, remember you have down hill momentum to keep you on and edge and you are leaning over the edge, you simply can not carry through on the same edge to complete a circle because you weight would be facing down the mountain and override any momentum you have of the carve produced by the sidecut of the board
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Sideshow_Bob wrote:
Ah, you're describing skidded turns. GrahamN posted a link to a video where a boarder is definitely leaning down the slope on the downhill edge - if you have enough speed and a decent sidecut you carve your turn and don't fall down the mountain.
Try looking up a guide on the internet on how to carve turns on a snowboard. Google shows some good basic ones.
Now you'll be ready to link carved turns. Once you have carved your way back up, roll your board onto its downhill edge. Yes, it's downhill edge. In most cases, this would cause a wipeout but with carving, the board's sidecut will pull you into a carved turn. To link turns smoothly together, adjust the amount you turn up the slope and use the shape of the turn to control your speed.
But the down hill edge almost immediately becomes the up hill edge as you go through the turn and lean back on the edge
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
This one comes close, just stops carving near the top.
all the examples of videos on here are of people on alpine boards, which are not the same as snowboards as the rider is not on heel or toe edges, they are on edges along the sides of their feet (similar to skis), so that they do not have the problem of ending up on the wrong edge facing up/down the slope
Sorry but this is complete bollox. An alpine snowboard is a snowboard under any definition and is cetainly not the same as a monoski. The reason you see it on alpine boards is that they have very definite performance advantages for the specific task. I'm pretty sure someone like Terje could manage it on a regular snowboard though... he'd probably do it switch.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
) is that he doesn't have enough speed to continue it, and nothing to do with any of the arguments you've been advancing. And exactly the same would apply if he were on skis.
).
