 Poster: A snowHead
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| veeeight wrote: |
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I think you've completely missed the point. The speed tests (whichever one) are to test your technical ability - if you're not good enough technically you can't make the time.
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The one fly in the ointment corrolating a TT style test and technique is that at the level (+25%, +30% etc.) that the course/times are set, it would be possible to set a fast/pass time AND yet not be in posession of "good" technique (whatever that may be).
How? I'm sure you've all raced your mates, who have been faster but yet not as an "accomplised" tecnically proficient skier as you. And we all know of a few WC athletes whose balance, strength and tactics have made up for inappropriate application of good technique.
Speed tests are not always a good indicator of technical ability. Speed tests indicate who is fastest down a course, by whatever means, tactics etc. employed. |
It might not be a perfect instrument to precisely rank one skier behind another, and speed obviously is a proxy measure of technical ability. But as an approximate measure of skiing ability I think it is a useful tool, and happily stands alongside professional judgements made by examiners. By itself I don't think it is a good enough device to measure technical ability, but I think it plays an important role and does so uniquely. In my limited experience of gates, without exception, the men and women who were quick were the skiers that I thought were very good technical skiers when I saw them free ski (the winner of the EoSB race being a good example).
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Thu 30-08-07 12:16; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I am slightly bemused by the comments about people being fast down a course but not having good technique.
Surely the whole point of racing is to get down the course as fast as possible. The person who gets down fastest by definition has displayed the best technique for getting down the course quickly on that day.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Arno, No. It's not a direct corrolation in many cases. Someone who can produce technically perfect clean carves may well not be the fastest person in the racecourse, if he/she reproduces those perfect clean carves in the course.
If an advanced driving instructor took on an 18yo in a Corsa SRi in a race through streets, what woule be the factors aiding the 18yo's win?
But of course the advanced driving instructor would have better driving technique - but most likely he wouldn't have won the street race.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Thu 30-08-07 13:13; edited 2 times in total
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| veeeight wrote: |
| Arno, No. It's not a direct corrolation in many cases. Someone who can produce technically perfect clean carves may well not be the fastest person in the racecourse, if he/she reproduces those perfect clean carves in the course. |
That's right, but they will be quicker than someone who has trouble executing a carved turn of any kind?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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rob@rar, Bode has made a very successful WC career and wins by going faster on a flat ski, and locking the edges in at the last minute to deflect his path towards the correct entry/exit - faster than someone who is on their edges all the time, for example......
Now I know that it's an extreme example, but, the point is that to be fast in a racecourse depends on more than just good technique.
All I'm saying is that the clock is not the end all as an indicator for measuring technical ability alone.
The other thing that no one has mentioned so far, is that race/gate training by itself is not condusice to all-mountain skiing. With the athletes that we work with we spend a lot of time outside the groomers developing other skills that are equally as important as race oriented skills.
If a TT style bar were to be implemented for the lower levels, one might have a situation where all lower level instructors would be so focussed to passing this (as is the case with the Eurotest) - that they would be brilliant skiers in the racecourse, but lack the skills and abilities to really ski the whole mountain well.
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veeeight,
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If a TT style bar were to be implemented for the lower levels, one might have a situation where all lower level instructors would be so focussed to passing this (as is the case with the Eurotest) - that they would be brilliant skiers in the racecourse, but lack the skills and abilities to really ski the whole mountain well.
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Well said
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| veeeight wrote: |
All I'm saying is that the clock is not the end all as an indicator for measuring technical ability alone.
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I agree, and I have never said that it should be used the sole measure of technical ability, nor that it should play a role in the teaching component of an instructor's training. I think it is just one of the tools that should be used. Even though you note that Bode is an extreme example, his technical ability to drift & lock although unusual shows that his fundamental ski skills are extremely good even if it is not the classic approach of someone like Raich. Whether that would make him a good teacher is, of course, a separate question... 
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| veeeight wrote: |
| If a TT style bar were to be implemented for the lower levels, one might have a situation where all lower level instructors would be so focussed to passing this (as is the case with the Eurotest) - that they would be brilliant skiers in the racecourse, but lack the skills and abilities to really ski the whole mountain well. |
Yes, I think there is a considerable danger that would be the case (although I think the fact that the Eurotest is feared by so many BASI candidates might mean that not enough attention is paid to gates training early in their career?). To what extent do BASI and other national systems offer training guidance to their candidates on what they require to continue through the various levels of qualification? I think there is some guidance offered at the end of the Trainee week (new Level 1 qualification) on what is required to achieve Grade 3 (insert whatever that is called these days).
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rob@rar, no doubt there is wide variation but I wonder if there is a tendency to try to get people through Level 1, both to bolster the number of instructors available to teach beginners and to get people into the system, ie they're looking to try to pass people if poss rather than to limit numbers. Certainly after that there is guidance in the form of a personal action plan to help one develop, together with formal info on the whats and hows of the next step though not necessarily in direct relation to the improvement in one's personal skiing performance required for Level 2 other than Tutor/Trainer feedback.
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| slikedges wrote: |
| rob@rar, no doubt there is wide variation but I wonder if there is a tendency to try to get people through Level 1, both to bolster the number of instructors available to teach beginners and to get people into the system, ie they're looking to try to pass people if poss rather than to limit numbers. |
Yes, plus the fact that Level 1 courses and the 'gap year' that can go with it are big money earners for BASI and their accredited ski schools!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| veeeight wrote: |
Arno, No. It's not a direct corrolation in many cases. Someone who can produce technically perfect clean carves may well not be the fastest person in the racecourse, if he/she reproduces those perfect clean carves in the course.
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doesn't this just illustrate that clean carving isn't necessarily "perfect" race technique?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Arno, is "Perfect race technique" the goal - is it the same as "perfect skiing technique"
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Arno,
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doesn't this just illustrate that clean carving isn't necessarily "perfect" race technique?
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I have to agree that the skier who wins is usually the one with best race technique (extra weight and wax excluded), and I strongly disagree with all the people who say Bode has bad technique. Clearly unorthodox, but a ski world champion doesn't have bad technique! I guess the question is whether good race technique is useful for teaching beginners. I am in favour of introducing a race, but it should be of a low enough level to allow instructors who don't come from a race background but are good skiers to pass. Definitely don't think it should be a slalom as this takes a lot more work than GS for a non-racer.
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You know it makes sense.
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Wear The Fox Hat, well, that's kind of my point. i am not sure there's such thing as "perfect technique" in the sense of perfect in every situation. there are, however, better and worse ways of achieving a particular goals. I am sure some people can achieve a pretty much perfect carved turn out of the CSIA coaching manual. I think veeeight has said that this won't necessarily get you through a set of gates in the fastest possible time so maybe a perfect CSIA carved turn isn't perfect race technique?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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What would be the difference betweeen a BASI carved turn and a CSIA carved turn? Or for that matter an ESF one? 
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Poster: A snowHead
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veeeight, I have no idea but that's not really my point. presumably the CSIA has a view on what makes a good turn and if you meet all the relevant criteria you can say, for those purposes, you have achieved a "perfect" or at least "good" turn. presumably, it also looks different from what Bode Miller does on a race course?!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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veeeight, the colour of the jacket.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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If what has been said earlier is true that basically nobody over 40 stands a chance of passing Eurotest, then that alone is enough to show how absurd a speedtest is as a must-pass qualification.
Where on earth do they get the idea that you must have a young body to be able to teach?
Just face the simple truth: it is an artificail barrier to entry that only really exists to restrict the supply of ski instructors so that those already n place are more assured of a good income.
I totally reject the whole concept for "general" ski instructors, and would be cautious even before I endorse it for race coaching. As somebody else said: do you have to have been a Premiership footballer to be able to coach football?
I'm a qualified ECB cricket coach (at their basic level) and I'm not even a very good cricketer....however I do know what good technique is, and I am trained in how to teach it. Do as I say, not as I do!
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| rungsp wrote: |
| I'm a qualified ECB cricket coach (at their basic level) and I'm not even a very good cricketer....however I do know what good technique is, and I am trained in how to teach it. Do as I say, not as I do! |
Is there more demonstration by the instructor in skiing than there is in other sports and recreational coaching? How many golf pros are there who aren't good golfers? Do as I do has been a perfectly valid technique in a fair amount of the ski instruction I've had.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| rungsp wrote: |
| Just face the simple truth: it is an artificail barrier to entry that only really exists to restrict the supply of ski instructors so that those already n place are more assured of a good income. |
and provide jobs for ex racers
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| Quote: |
Is there more demonstration by the instructor in skiing than there is in other sports and recreational coaching? How many golf pros are there who aren't good golfers? Do as I do has been a perfectly valid technique in a fair amount of the ski instruction I've had.
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Hmm - this is where it get's a bit messy. (Pauses to put Tin Hat on). Here in England, we have a good system for the dryslopes - with a low technical level, that's great for getting started teaching. I know plenty of folk who've started this way. They may not be 'good' skiers - but in a well run plastic ski school, they'll do just fine teaching beginners and children.
However, once you get past the beginner stage, unless you find an exceptional coach, you need a teacher who can ski and teach well. This is for two reasons, the first being that you'll copy them, and the second being that unless your coach/instructor has experienced the sensations he/she is trying to get you to experience - it will be a whole lot harder.So (for me) two of the ingredients are a) Being able to ski well (say ISIA level) and b) plenty of teaching experience. Being able to pass the Eurotest is just a subset of being a good, and young, skier.
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Why does any of this matter to anyone not involved in training to become an instructor themselves ?
Are you unable to book lessons when on holiday due to there not being enough instructors available ?
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rjs, 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| veeeight wrote: |
| Speed tests are not always a good indicator of technical ability. Speed tests indicate who is fastest down a course, by whatever means, tactics etc. employed, not necessarily basic raw technique. |
I think this is one fly in the ointment. The other biggie is that the Eurotest simply isn't standard - it can't be while it is measured in relation to different pacesetters and on different days. If you were to say TT/Eurotest pass mark/time is X in resort Y, end of story, so that you are comparing like with like, then you could argue that it is objective. But when the pass time/speed changes for every test, it's no more standardised than assessment.
For me, consistency is probably more important for an instructor than having a blinder in a race course on one day. So I would prefer to see a test that takes, say, 10 runs averaging a measure (basis and level to be decided, but could be time), all displaying good technique, than someone who passes the Eurotest on one day when they happen to ski really fast for them and the pacesetter has an off day.
Surely a trainer who is good enough to be examining ISTD in the first place is good enough to assess visually whether a particular examinee has the requisite skills, even in a race course (surely you can see who feels at home in the gates and who doesn't, irrespective of time)? If the argument is to stop people passing because they have a cute bum or something, then make sure that each module is examined by a different person and then let the market decide - someone who generates complaints and claims for refunds from ski schools isn't going to keep their job long. The Eurotest/TT is no more a test of safety on the mountain than it is a test of teaching.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting that the racing element - or even Eurotest - be done away with per se; I think a professional ski instructor (i.e. ISTD) should have knowledge of as many aspects of the sport as possible, so I also support the requirement for a basic, or even decent, knowledge of park stuff (although how long before ISTD candidates need to get within 20% of Tanner Hall?). And I think it's a good thing for ISTD to be regarded as degree level requiring the same amount of student input (and not an "easy option"). But I do think the current format could be improved and made more equitable. A system that effectively bars older entrants to the profession and precludes perfectly decent skiers (in the context of ISTD, i.e. strata above us mere mortals) who have already been assessed as having reached the requisite standard of technical ability from full qualification is depriving the profession - and hence its clients - of some potentially very valuable assets imo. Witness the glowing reports various  have given of Stewart Woodward - yet if he ends up never passing the Eurotest (because of his age?) then he will ultimately be lost to Tignes and his clients there (hope he doesn't mind me taking his name in vain).
And of course there's another inconsistency in that the requirements for ISTD/grade 1 have changed over the years. Are people who qualified more recently and had to do a Eurotest better instructors than those who didn't have to do the Eurotest? If so, then should those who qualified earlier be made to do the Eurotest to maintain standards? Or if those who never had to do it are still perfectly good instructors, then why should the Eurotest be used to fail people who have otherwise passed exactly the same level of qualification as their older colleagues?
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Thu 30-08-07 17:02; edited 1 time in total
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brian
brian
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Ach, enough of this idle banter, what I want to know is ... are you safe skiing without a helmet ? 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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How about the oldest ISTD in the resort ski school setting the time? Anyone going for the grade then has to equal or beat their time. Then you can say you're as fast, therefore as technically proficient as the most experienced Instructor in the Resort.
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skimottaret,
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If they had a more objective marker in place perhaps it would make everyones life a lot easier.
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Things you always hear about instructor courses;
1) Of course the standard was a lot lower back then
2) The level is much higher this year than last
3) He/She only passed 'cos they slept with the trainer
4) He/She should never have passed
etc etc etc
This sort of thing has been going on for years.....
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You know it makes sense.
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ski, i guess that is my point the clock doesnt lie.....
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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If you have two skiers of exactly identical technical skills, but one is aged 20 and one 60, the former will always be quicker through a GS course, because of greater explosive strength when accelerating out of each turn. (Just as a 20-year-old, 13-stone male will always be faster than a 20-year-old 8-stone female - of identical skill.)
So there should be really be a sliding age scale for the TT and Eurotest. As it stands at present, it is unfairly excluding older candidates from the profession.
In the Rocky Mountain Division of PSIA there is now a "speed" requirement, which involves getting a gold NASTAR medal. Not that tough, but it is age-adjusted, which I think is a good thing.
I personally don't think there is any need for speed tests at the entry level qualifications.
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brian
brian
Guest
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
In the Rocky Mountain Division of PSIA there is now a "speed" requirement, which involves getting a gold NASTAR medal. Not that tough, but it is age-adjusted, which I think is a good thing.
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Martin Bell, At what level of PSIA does the race requirement kick in?
Age adjusted works for me and i think everyone would agree with that one....
Not understanding the NASTAR levels how would GOLD that compare to say the Test Technique, the Aosta Valley test or FIS points. Is it GS or SS?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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There is one major down side to all our sensible arguments the French will never change their test too much at stake
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| However, it is rather soul destroying to pay for a lesson in Switzerland say and have someone who is just not good enough technically trying to show you how to ski. |
This is the thread that I referred to earlier, as an example of a situation which the system really should avoided.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| brian wrote: |
| Ach, enough of this idle banter, what I want to know is ... are you safe skiing without a helmet ? |
Yes, but only if you are at least Level 7 on the S&R scale and don't use snowblades.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| Not understanding the NASTAR levels how would GOLD that compare to say the Test Technique, the Aosta Valley test or FIS points. Is it GS or SS? |
NASTAR is GS. Is there broad equivalence across NASTAR and the French Fleche system?
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Given that so far all the best ski instructors that I have had speak pretty good french. Should French be part of the test for aspirant ski instructors?
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T Bar, I think there is a language requirement for BASI Grade 1, although fairly basic.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| T Bar wrote: |
| Given that so far all the best ski instructors that I have had speak pretty good french. Should French be part of the test for aspirant ski instructors? |
No, that just says you have limited exposure to instructors!
A lot of good ones speak German, Italian, Spanish, and other European languages.
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A few thoughts:-
1. When I was at primary school none of the teachers had A level maths, but that didn't stop them teaching me the basics and going to study maths at university.
2. I've never heard a beginner say "I hate skiing because the instructor was crap at slalom", but I do know people put off by the instructor's attitude and/or lack of communication skills.
3. On a flight back from the US a few years ago I met a chap who was employed by the Football Association to coach coaches (he'd been to the US to teach coaches), but the highest level of football he'd played at was the Conference.
4. As a pupil what I expect a teacher to do is (a) demonstrate the technique they're teaching competently, (b) explain to me how to do it in terms I understand, (c) recognise when/if I need a better teacher in order to improve.
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FAQ
