FastMan, lots of us get some pre season warm up in the indoor snow domes here and if you have some drills applicable to 11- 15 degree slopes that are 100 metres long let us have it
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
MEAT AND POTATOES............... part 1
OK, the snow is flying here in Colorado, and the lifts are running. Winter is upon us here, and just around the corner for the unfortunates in other parts of the world. It's time to kick this thread back into gear.
Recall, the theme of this thread is encouraging people to expand their comfort zones while skiing (review the first post). In that spirit, I'll now start to offer some means of doing that.
Skiing is a collage of many separate skill areas, blended together into a symphony of cohesive movement and performance. Think, if you will, of each separate skill as an individual note. The more notes one has the ability produce, the greater the repertoire of musical pieces one can play on the snow. And there-in dwells the key to expanding comfort zones; expanding ones skill base within each skill area. Those skill areas are stance, balance, rotation, edging, flexion/extension, angulation, pressure control, and transitions. Let's start with stance.
The term "Stance" referrers to the nature of the standing position we take on our skis. Look around the slopes and you'll see many variations of stance. Some skiers will look as though they are standing very naturally and feel completely comfortable on their skis. These are the skiers others watch and wish they could emulate. Others look terribly uneasy, as though death is nipping at their heels, and they're struggling with every fiber of their being to escape it's oh so close grasp.
So what are the specifics that differentiate these two skier type stances? To explain it, I'm going to throw a term at you; STACKING. In skiing, when we speak of stacking, we're referring to the manner in which different parts of our body align. A well stacked skier (please, no smart comments ) will have their hips aligned vertically above their feet, and their shoulders and head directly above their hips. This position puts the skier in the strongest possible position, as well as in a position that best allows them to respond athletically to the changing forces, snow, and terrain experienced while skiing. This contrasts with the non-stacked position, where exaggerated knee flexion drops the hips behind the feet, and low,,, there's major compensating forward flexion at the waist,,, and the weight has dropped back on the heels. This is not a strong position, or even remotely athletic, but it's unfortunately very common. Why? The answer often has it's roots in fear.
Skiing can be an intimidating proposition in the early stages of learning. There we are, pointing ourselves down what appear to be very steep hills, and on slippery sticks we feel we have little control over. A feeling of unease in such an environment is a reasonable response. We humans have natural survival mechanisms imbedded within us, and one of those is the "retreat" response. When we feel the acceleration of sliding kick in, a natural response is to back away from the speed. The result; we sit back. The knees bend,,, the hips drop and fall behind,,, our weight goes to our heels,,, and we bend forward at the waist to keep from falling square on our butt. From this defensive position we proceed to try to negotiate our run. Unfortunately, trying to perform in this non-athletic position just adds challenge to the task,,, but fear has put us new skiers into this poor position, and fear will cause us to remain there, struggling more than is necessary in our efforts to perform. Through that repeated effort, we learn to refine to barely workable levels the inefficient movement patterns we're employing. And as we continue to use these second class tactics, we embed them into our muscle memoried execution habits.
Looking around the slopes, we can see that a larger percentage of recreational skiers are trapped in that very situation. Hunched positions with butts behind feet and weight on heels is epidemic out there. But it can be resolved. The cure starts right at home in bare feet on carpet. Stand up, with feet approximately hip width apart, and equally weighting each foot. Now see that your knees are straightened, so that only slight flexion remains in them (perhaps 10-15 degrees out of straight), and your hips are aligned directly above your feet. Next, align shoulders and head directly above your hips. Keep your chin up and look forward. Hands up as though skiing. Finish by flexing backward and forward at the ankles only until you feel your weight concentrated on the balls of your feet, with only minor pressure on your heels. You are now in an athletic stacked stance. You can check yourself by doing this in-house drill with a mirror at your side, and sneaking a peak. A partner on hand is also helpful to provide some feedback.
Now that you've learned how to stack yourself, practice moving in and out of that stance. From your stacked stance, flex deeply in the knees. You'll feel your butt move behind your feet and drop lower. You'll also notice your weight shift back to your heels, and feel yourself flex forward at the waist in an effort to keep from falling backwards onto your keester. This is the common defensive stance. Practice moving back and forth,,, from defensive,,, to stacked,,, to defensive,,, to stacked. This will help refine your sensory awareness of the two stances so on snow you can start to become aware of which one you're in,,, and will enhance your ability to move back into stacked when you sense you've inadvertently drifted into defensive.
On snow you will continue to develop and refine these skills by doing the same thing. Find a very gentle slope that allows for slow and non-intimidating straight runs. Get yourself into the nicely stacked and balanced stance you learned at home, and then start to slide. Maintain the stacked position as you continue your straight run, and begin to develop the sense of what it feels like to ski in this athletic position. Next, do the same straight run while repeatedly switching back and forth between stacked and defensive,,, just like you did at home on the carpet. You're simply continuing to develop the sensory and recovery skills you were at home by moving the drill onto snow.
(A hint: if you simply can't find a slope flat enough to do these straight runs at a comfortable speed, you can modify the drill by doing the straight runs on an angle to the falline)
Next, you'll want to do the same progression (first stacked, then shifting back and forth) while doing turns. Start off with single partial turns. These partial turns should replicate the last third of a turn. Start with your skis facing 45 degrees to the falline, then turn uphill to a stop. Ensure you maintain a well balanced stacked stance through the entirety of the partial turn. Reverse and turn the opposite direction. Follow with the shifting back and forth drill. Continue by adding more and more turn till you're doing an entire turn. Then link your turns. Always be cognizant of the maintaining the stacking quality as you add difficulty to the drills.
Finish by skiing in very diverse stances. Make some series of turns in a very hunched stances,,, then some with an overly extended stance. Learn to perform in a wide range of stance positions. This will continue to further enhance your sensory awareness of what type of stance you're skiing in at any moment,,, further refine your ability to recover to the ideal stance when you need/want, and expand your ability to perform in a wider range of positions. In essence; expanding your comfort zone.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Thu 18-10-07 3:44; edited 2 times in total
But what about the pre-season? I find that rollerblading is immensely good for my skiing (despite the differences - or maybe because of? - in technique). What else do people find helpful?
Mountain biking, running etc. Hell man you've got the whole Jura in your back garden.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
davidof, Jura? - My weekends currently are spent renovating my back garden in Chamonix! (I wasn't looking for inspiration...)
In MAP part 1 I talked about stance. We developed the ideal stacked and balanced stance, practiced moving in and out of it, and worked on learning to perform in less ideal stances too. With that under our belts, let's move on.
Here in part 2 I'll talk about turn shape. If you've been reading BZK recently, you're well aware that this is an obvious shortcoming of the average recreational skier. Specifically, they only have one,,, that being one with a much more aggressive manual turning of the skis at the beginning of the turn than at the end. It's what I refer to as "rushing the turn". It's done via an abrupt tossing of the tails out to the side at the beginning of the turn, quickly redirecting them sharply into the direction of the new turn. Generally, it's a defensive move designed to help the skier avoid having to have their skis pointing down the dreaded falline (straight down hill). It's a habit that's typically acquired at the earliest stages of the learning process, when skills are at their lowest, and fear at it's highest. And the habit often lingers, even as skills continue to improve. Let's break that mold, and expand the turn shape comfort zone.
First thing we need to do in that quest is to learn and adopt an efficient means of turning the skis. There are two basic categories of ways to turn on skis. The first is manual, where we physically twist our skis into a new direction using muscle power. The second is where we simply tip the skis on edge and allow the innate mechanical properties of the skis to do the turning for us,,, what we commonly think of as carving. We are going to focus for now on the first type. Manual turning results in slower speeds, and provides a wider range of turn shapes to the skier. As such it should always be the first category of turns learned, and should be present in the options bag of all skiers, regardless of their level of expertise.
The method of manual turning I'm going to discuss here is called "leg steering". It's really a very simple concept. The muscles of the legs are used to twist the skis in the direction the skier wants to go. How sharply the skier turns is easily controlled by how much twisting power is applied with the leg muscles. No upper body input is needed with this method. In fact, the upper body just rides along rather passively as the legs execute the turn, displaying very little movement activity.
Give it a try right there at home. Stand up on your hard floor or carpet in stocking feet. Feet about hip width apart, and equal weight on each foot. Assume the stacked/balanced stance we learned in MAP part 1. Now, slightly tip both your feet up onto their right sides, and then very subtly use the muscles of both your legs to twist your feet to the right. When you've turned about 45 degrees, tip your feet the opposite way (up on their left sides) and slooooowly use your leg muscles to twist back to the left. This is leg steering. Very simple.
Experiment with different amounts of steering power. Notice how the more you put into it, the faster your feet turn. This mechanism provides you with a vast range of turn shapes you can create on the slopes. You can make a turn that encompasses a huge amount of vertical space down the slope, or one that can turn you 180 degrees in the length of a ski. You can even change the rate of turning, mid turn. A turn can start off very gradual, then finish very sharply,,, or vise versa. It provides you with turn shape options well beyond those associated with carving. This is why refining your ability to leg steer is so important. Carving is a nice add on skill that opens up a new frontier of enjoyment in the sport,,, but leg steering will always represent a crucially important foundation skill.
Now take this onto the snow. Find a very gentle pitched, groomed slope. Practice very low powered leg steering first, that produces a very long and gradual turn. Start out making one turn at a time. Do it in a stacked/balanced stance, and ensure that the leg steering power you use is very consistent through the entire turn. Stop after your single turn and self review your performance. The shape of the turn you produce will tell you if you were successful. Look at the track you left. Is the arc of your turn long and consistent, from start to finish? Or did you actually rush the turn, using too much leg power, and make it come around too fast? Is it sharper at the beginning than it is at the end? Were you able to remain in a good stance as you made the turn? Do another turn, refinning your performance according to the issues you noticed on your self evaluation.
Make multiple attempts, in each direction, and keep refining your performance until you're completely satisfied you're meeting all the technical objectives,,, then connect some of these refined leg steering turns.
Once those are working well, start to vary your turn shapes. Make some sharper turns by applying stronger leg steering power. Make sure they stay consistent in shape, even though sharper. Make some even longer, more gradual turns. Make some turns that start out gradual, and finish sharp. Make some the opposite of that. Use your imagination and execute some shapes I haven't mentioned. Always ensure you're maintaining your good stance and balance as you do all these variations.
You've just expanded your turn shape comfort zone by a country mile.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Fri 2-11-07 4:09; edited 1 time in total
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Quote:
It is all relative..everyone will get thrown out of their comfort zone sooner or later...but it may take a major major incident to do it the more skilled you are.
I haven't had many lessons but one that I remember involved a French instructor taking my friend and I down two closed black runs (Jockeys and Jean Blanc above Le Praz, Courchevel if you know the ones) and encouraging us to ski as fast as possible. The conditions were "interesting" the runs had become skiable after a big fall after having been bare. They were a mixture of heavy soft bumps, bushes, semi-covered stream beds and the odd rock. His point was that we really needed to get out of our comfort zone to challenge our techniques and force us to be more sensitive to the conditions under foot. Character building...
After all it is free
After all it is free
FastMan,
Quote:
shoulders and head directly above their hips
.. I used to ski like this.. but after a season working in Canada and daily training sessions with some of the top guys in the CSIA (two of which went to Interski in South Korea earlier this year)... I now ski with a rounded back and my shoulders over my knees...not over my hips...
Is this wrong in your opinion?
Cheers
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
jedster, character building.. but I am not too sure your instructor would be very happy if his bosses or the ski patrol found out... Pistes are generally closed for a reason... if you were on holiday and you took a nasty tumble on a closed piste youare quite likely to find your insuranc eis null and void....
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
mrtoastie wrote:
FastMan,
Quote:
shoulders and head directly above their hips
.. I used to ski like this.. but after a season working in Canada and daily training sessions with some of the top guys in the CSIA (two of which went to Interski in South Korea earlier this year)... I now ski with a rounded back and my shoulders over my knees...not over my hips...
Is this wrong in your opinion?
Cheers
No, not necessarily wrong. It's can simply represent a preference. I understand that the Canadians do strongly emphasize this hunched position, much more than other national teaching organizations I'm familiar with. I'm stressing this stacked stance early on here as a means of helping learning skiers get out of the perpetual back seat, and experience the strong and relaxed skiing provided by moving to this state of alignment and balance. Added flexion at the waist comes later, as edge angles grow, and counter and forward flexion at the waist become necessary commodities for maintaining good lateral balance. But with the low edge angles of steered and neophyte carving that forward hip flexion is less necessary, and the hunched position introduces more potential negatives than positives.
Even with high edge angles good stacked alignment is important from foot to hip. In fact it's crucial as speeds increase for resisting the forces imposed on the skier by such skiing. Notice that lower leg alignment in this photo of one of the greatest skiers of all time: http://ronlemaster.com/images/2003-2004/slides/maier-pc-gs-2003-1-stance-width-A.html There is forward hip flexion displayed here,,, but the outside knee is extended, which brings his hip in fore/aft alignment with his outside foot, providing him good fore pressure on his ski.
That lower leg alignment is so important in upper level carving. That's the thing that needs to be focused on. The risk in stressing the hunched position, as the Canadians do, is that in trying to emulate that hunch skiers might mistakenly adopt positions that have the outside knee flexed too much, and thus the hips trailing too far, at the apex point of the turn where edge angles and turn forces are at their highest, and the importance of outside leg alignment is at it's highest.
The same lower body aligned positions I'm explaining can be seen in the skiing of these fellas: http://youtube.com/v/TTboYL8CjaU&NR=1
Guay and Nyberg are probably the best two to watch here, as their movements are the most pure and simplistic. They go into their turns very stacked. Forward hip flexion enters the picture later in the turn to facilitate balance as edge angles grow, but the outside leg/knee always remains extended through the apex, and thus the hips fore/aft aligned with the outside foot.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
mrtoastie, It's known as the "Canadian Crouch" by various other outfits around the world, I too tend to ski with my shoulders ahead of my hips, in racing, it's sometimes known as the "Canadian Lockdown" position - as when the going gets tough, those that adopt this position effectively are forced to utilise the lower body to do some skiing.
It's definitely a good strong position to be in, but as FastMan described above, the danger with the recreational skier is that they adopt an aft balance position.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
FastMan, I think the danger of shoulders over the hips is that if the hips (Centre of Mass) are not over the front part of the foot then the skier will inevitably be a little behind the movement. BASI used to be very keen on the rounded lower back, but I prefer the idea of 'standing up from the knees'. I find this works well. Of course what works for which client varies enormously.
A little language stuff: butt = bottom; groomed = pisted ... In my dad's day the position you describe was known as the 'great British lavatorial position!' (But you couldn't say that in the states could you?)
I like your music analogy; I usually talk about a toolbox and the tools in it. Same thing, but the music one sounds less utilitarian.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
FastMan, veeeight, thanks guys that was really helpful. Snowheads rocks
Wrongly or rightly when discussing stance with my pupils I ask them if they`ve ever been punched in the belly or been whacked in the tummy by a football... (I used to box at University and when you take a good hit in the guts you round your back in a way akin to the Canadian approach ie. your hips move slightly forward, your tummy gets pulled in, your lower back rounds and your shoulders are hunched forward) - I have found this a very useful way to get students to visualise the "Canadian Crouch"... especially when dealing with males!
Whilst refering to the "Canadian Crouch" I thought I would mention another couple of Canadianisms I observed during my time there... and ask for your opinions easiski, veeeight, FastMan.
(better watch myself here as I`m working there again this season )
- narrowness of stance
- lifting of inside ski
- I believe the narrowness of stance probably stems from the fact they are lucky enough to enjoy a hang of a lot of powder skiing and also have a great love of the bumps. They therefore get used to adopting the more mobile narrower stance.
- lifting of the inside ski. I believe this is a symptom of poor/or old school technique. I tend to find there are a variety of causes - poor stance and balance, incorrect turn mechanics, underdeveloped pivoting skills, lack of understanding of the modern ski shape, etc etc
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
FastMan, check out the tail of the Thomas Grandis inside ski on your youtube link.
Cuche was also lifting a lot.
(not that I am suggesting they have poor technique.. they would whip my ass on one ski!!)
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
mrtoastie, Re: the lifting - and I only watched the video once - I think they were all doing it in the same place on the slope, so the chances are there was an obstruction there???
I do very firmly believe that approx hip width is the right stance. ie: where you legs would naturally dangle if I picked you up under the armpits. Anything either wider or narrower would be unnatural, and we should be as natural as possible. Of course then, in my case, I have a perfect excuse for having quite a narrow stance (being narrow in the hip).
Lifting - on the whole I think it's a good exercise, and a bad habit. I do it, it's natural for me to step onto the uphill ski and lift the new inside one .... comes from not only stem christies, but also all those racing step turns I did as a youngster. I can, of course, ski with both feet on the ground, but when I'm thinking of something completely different (supper, Snowheads, whatever) that's what I revert to. One thing though - it does guarantee all your weight and pressure on the one edge = better grip ...
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
easiski, I agree lifting can be a good excercise but a bad habit..it can help with many skills.. pressure control, balance, stance, edging and also pivoting eg. Javelin turns.. lifting the soon to be inside ski and pivoting the "new" outside ski underneath to turn... (also great for separation!!)
Lifting does guarantee all pressure on one edge but with modern ski`s a more two footed approach utilises the ski properties more efficiently.. biting the snow with the inside edge of the outside ski and the outside edge of the inside ski ( ) is a stronger, more stable and more balanced position. It also allows the skier to be more progressive with the edge angle and pressure allowing a greater variety of turn shapes IMO.
There was this truely awesome guy I saw in Canada.. Fluorescent Yellow Jacket.. headband.. big tache and old school straight skis. Every turn (well half turn.. he never reached completion) he made he would lift the tail of his inside ski right up to his butt whilst keeping the tip on the snow. The first time I saw him I thought he was doing an excercise.. but alas no... that was how he skied. he was amazing at it but a sthis is ALL he did he would class him as the "Original One Trick Pony"
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
FastMan, Nice video, one thing i noticed in this and other videos is a habit of racers bringing both hands up and forward in almost a "double" pole plant. They almost seem to use the hands up move as a trigger to initiate the extension of the body upwards. Is this a hangover from too much racing or is it a good technique in free skiing?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
skimottaret, I would say it is a hangover from too much racing..
Hip width is a good *starting* point. Stance width then IMHO varies with intent, conditions, terrain etc. I very much doubt you'll see a CSIA4 ski with an extremely narrow stance on an icy pitch doing GS turns. Almost certainly they will have widened their stance, but as we don't get to see those conditions too often, we don't often see CSIA4's in a super wide stance!
Wide stance = stability, narrow stance = mobility, so for short radius turns, bumps etc., the narrow stance will have the advantage. Another outcome is that with a narrow stance you are much less likely to inadvertantly load up the inside ski, and instead it will encourage a dominant outside ski.
Quote:
- lifting of inside ski
One of the advantages of lifting (the tail of) the new inside ski is that it ensures you are well balanced on the new outside ski early in the turn.
Here's Grandi freeskiing (no gate avoidance). IMHO lifting the (tail of) the inside ski is not a crime, it has positive benefits of early balance and commitment in many situations. I've also got some footage of Benny Raich using this tactic in a Super Combined race (which he won) - and that's just it - it's not "technique" as we know it, but application of a useful/good tactic.
Sure, it'd be nice and pretty to leave both skis on the ground, but if it happens (for the most part unconciously) to me it demonstrates nice early good balance (on the outside ski) and recentering.
Of course, there are times when the opposite happens, ala the "White Pass" move.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
skimottaret wrote:
FastMan, Nice video, one thing i noticed in this and other videos is a habit of racers bringing both hands up and forward in almost a "double" pole plant. They almost seem to use the hands up move as a trigger to initiate the extension of the body upwards. Is this a hangover from too much racing or is it a good technique in free skiing?
I'd guess that would be very tiring if you're throwing in double pole plants all day long. Useful to help get back into balance if you drop into the back seat, but I couldn't imagine doing double pole plants for much of the time when free skiing.
To address the lifting of the inside ski, and the hands moving forward:
I believe they're related. Think for a moment what's happening during a transition. In the prior turn the skier was countered in the pelvis. During the transitions you're seeing in that video, previous turn counter is being eliminated and early new turn counter is being established. I call that process the transitional pelvic shift. In essence, the new inside hip (downhill hip) is being driven forward during the transition. The foot/leg connected to that new inside hip is the one you see being lifted. The foot moves forward with the hip. Just as it naturally trailed in the prior turn, because of the counter being employed, it will now lead in the coming turn. That manual driving forward of the new inside hip/leg/foot during a transition contributes to the lifting of that foot, I believe. The movement is similar to walking, and in walking we lift our foot. It an movement pattern imbedded in our muscle memory from the time of our first steps, so it's not surprising it reveals itself in this.
Also, notice that Inside Leg Extension (ILE) is being used as the release move for these transitions. Sorry, I know, I still haven't explained that one yet. I'll get to it soon here I hope. For now, the readers digest version. ILE is a subtle pushing down on the old inside (uphill) foot that serves to shift weight to that ski and causes the Center of Mass (CM)to begin moving across the skis and tipping into the new turn. ILE makes the old inside foot become light (non-pressured), and as the CM crosses over the skis it rises. This lightening of the foot and rising of the CM also contributes to the lifting of the new inside (downhill) foot.
And as to the forward hand movement. Go back to what I said about counter. The previous turn had some. As such, the old inside (uphill) foot was leading. So what happens when ILE transfers pressure to that foot? ....................................................................................................... Yep, the state of balance becomes suddenly aft because the we're moving onto a foot that is out in front of us. We need to correct that situation. The pelvic shift helps in that regard, as it changes the relationship of pelvis to pressured ski, bringing the new outside foot back as the new inside foot/hip is driven forward. But a little hoisting forward of the CM helps resolve the problem too, and the subtle transitional hand movements you see are in my opinion a tool to help facilitate that CM fore/aft recovery. The first guy, Cuche, is different. His hand action is gross, and I believe while also serving CM recovery, the extra aggression in it is speed generation based.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Quote:
jedster, character building.. but I am not too sure your instructor would be very happy if his bosses or the ski patrol found out... Pistes are generally closed for a reason... if you were on holiday and you took a nasty tumble on a closed piste youare quite likely to find your insuranc eis null and void....
not sure about that - would it be treated any differently to off-piste?
After all it is free
After all it is free
jedster, Yes - closed ALWAYS negates your insurance. Off piste varies WITH the insurance.
Will reply to the other stuff later.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
And just a note to readers:
This thread is multi tangent. As is to be expected as I continue to add installments of "MEAT AND POTATOES". The tangent discussions will invariably move into levels of skill and intricacy beyond those intended in "MEAT AND POTATOES". That's ok. But for those intermediate skiers trying to use this thread as a learning tool and means of self teaching on snow, my advice is to focus mainly on the "MEAT AND POTATOES" installments as they come. A definitive progression is being presented there for developing the skills that lead one out of the intermediate doldrums. Many concepts and drills will be explained which can be taken directly to the snow to be practiced. They will lead you forward in a purposely stuctured progression. Nothing of course replaces the feedback that comes from lessons with a quality profession, but for those looking to try their hand at self teaching, this will offer an avenue.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
FastMan, thanks for the "Beef and Tatties" bits. They're printed off to be read in the, ahem, small reading room.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
FastMan, thank you for using both "old/new inside" and uphill/downhill, makes it crystal clear!
In incredibly (possibly over-)simplistic terms: ILE = pedalling?
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
eng_ch, I'll take a go... yes and no.... you do not stand onto that new foot... (important difference)
the whole idea is to transfer some pressure to that foot while it is supinated(on the little toe edge) and you are balanced over the OTHER ski(old outside/downhill)...
Because you are balanced over the inside(uphill) edge of that downhill(old outside) ski you start to be imbalanced as you transfer pressure to that uphill(old inside) foot and extend that leg... this imbalance causes you to "topple" down hill into the new turn... as that happens you continue to extend that leg and relax the other leg.... the rate at which you do this relaxation and extension affects your transition speed.... by constantly extending that leg you stay connected to the snow as it becomes your new outside(downhill) ski... hence less "float"(or disconnect) feeling to the turn... also very early edge engagement...
You can pedal and just extend UP - so you stand up ONTO that old inside(uphill) ski... this is not the aim...
One reason you pressure the foot while it is supinated is that this is the natural position it takes when unweighted walking and it naturally will pronate and take load and change edge for you if you start to pressure it while it is still a little ahead of your hip - which it is when it is the INSIDE ski and on its OUTSIDE(little toe) edge (ie supinated)
Must get Fastman to write the ILE thread soon!!!
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
little tiger, your description is what I understand by pedalling, more across than up; the "pedalling" notion conveys the weight transference alternating on each turn
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
eng_ch, weight transference almost always occurs in each turn
the WAY it occurs is the transition type eg Inside Leg Extension (ILE) , Outside Leg Relaxation(OLR), Pivot to Carve, etc etc etc
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
eng_ch, yes, ILE does involve the lateral management of pressure from foot to foot. It's the manner in which ILE exercises that management, and how it uses that managment to contoll the flow of the CM into the new turn that makes it unique.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Mosha Marc, you're welcome. Just noticed your signature location. Always there, or did you change it in honor of the wording in my post?
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
MEAT AND POTATOES..................... part 3
Moving on. In MAP part 1 we learned the principles of good stance. In MAP part 2 we learned to use leg steering to control and modify our turn shape, when and as desired. Now in part 3 we'll get our first taste of balance skill training.
Of all the skills sets involved in skiing, I place supreme importance on balance. Good balance skills not only allow us to remain upright when all rules of physics dictate we should not, they allow execution of all the other skills from a position that affords us the most opportunity for success. It also lets us manipulate our state of balance away from ideal to achieve situational benefits. Without good balance skills, everything we try to do on our skis will be unnecessarily more challenging.
I teach balance a little different than some. I do not shoot for learning to ski in the ideal state as a singular goal. Learning ideal is good, and important, but it's only one step in the process of realizing your potential as a skier. Focusing only on ideal does not prepare a skier for those situations when ideal slips away. It does not provide skiers with the confidence of knowing they can continue to perform when such slips occur. Such confidence affords the courage to try new skills, or ski more difficult terrain, where slipping out of ideal is more likely to occur. And finally, ideal balance is not what is needed to exploit all the inherent opportunities for fun and performance our sport carries.
So what the heck is IDEAL balance, anyway? Ideal balance is a way of standing on our skis that requires the least muscular involvement to remain upright. It allows us to use the magnificent balancing capabilities of the foot to their fullest. It provides the best opportunity to react and execute athletically. Balance is broken into two categories; 1) FORE/AFT, which refers to how weight is distributed front to back, along the base of our feet. And 2) LATERAL, which refers to what percentage of weight we have on each foot.
In the fore/aft plane, ideal is a state that distributes pressure across the entire foot, with weight on both the balls of the foot and the heel. Our foot is a wondrous balancing instrument. It's made to, when weighted properly, compress into a amazingly stable platform. For that stable platform to be formed, weight must be applied across the entire fore/aft base of the foot.
Ideal fore/aft balance also involves not overloading the front or the back of the ski boot cuff. When a skier leans against the front or back of the boot, another point enters the platform upon which he/she is trying to balance. This deteriorates the foots potential to provide balance, while requiring additional muscle involvement to prevent our body from collapsing over the front or back of the boot.
Now let's talk about lateral balance. Ideal lateral balance is usually characterized by having the majority of ones weight concentrated on the outside ski. There are a couple reasons for that. First, during a well executed ski turn the outside foot will try to pronate, which directs pressure to the inside edge of the outside ski. That's exactly what we want. Second, as we tip into a turn our inside leg needs to flex/bend/shorten more than the outside leg to allow the outside ski to stay pressured on the snow. The more flexed a leg becomes, the less able it is to resist the G forces produced by a ski turn. Obviously, we want to direct the bulk of those G forces to our straighter/stronger outside leg and foot.
So, now that we have an understanding of what ideal is, how do we get there? How do we know if we're there? How do we learn to move away from ideal when we want to? How do we develop the skills to perform in less than ideal states? And why would we want to? All good questions. All have good answers.
The first step in coming to learn the above answers is developing sensory awareness. We need to know what state of balance we're in before we can manage it. For that we need to develop a keen sense of pressure/load awareness in the base of our feet, and our legs. That awareness will tell us precisely how weight is distributed across the base of our foot/feet. It will tell us if we have more pressure on the balls of our feet or our heels. It will tell us how much of our total turn intensified weight is being assigned to each foot. It will allow us to sense if/when/how our state of balance changes during the course of a turn. It will allow us to dictate that change whenever and however we desire.
A few simple drills, both off and on the snow, can get you started in developing that sensory awareness. Start at home by standing up in bare or stocking feet. Assume the stacked stance you learned in MAP part 1. Now, by slowly flexing forward and back at only the ankles, feel the pressure distribution across the bottom of your feet change. Really focus your total attention on the sensations you feel on the bottom of your feet as you do this. Notice how a very minor articulation in your ankles has a dramatic affect on the pressure distribution happening along the base of your feet. This demonstrates how acute the movements involved in balance management really are, and therefore how keen our sensory awareness needs to be to control it.
Now introduce some lateral balance awareness. Slowly shift your weight side to side, from foot to foot. Do it slowly so you can feel it gradually shift, little by little, back and forth from foot to foot. Notice what you're doing to make that shift happen? Focus your attention on your pelvis. You're shifting it left and right to manage your lateral state of balance. What you're actually doing is intuitively managing your lateral balance by moving your Center of Mass, and it shows up in the pelvis movement you notice. Store that tidbit of knowledge,,, we'll be using it later.
Next, combine lateral and fore/aft management. In the manner we described, try slowly shifting your weight fore/aft while in different states of lateral balance. Remember to focus in on the sensory feedback being provided by the base of your foot. Later, experiment with simultaneous lateral and fore/aft shifting, picking up on both sensory awarenesses at once.
Finally, get your skis and boots out of the garage/closet. Dust them off so non skiing spouseys don't bitch about dirtying the carpet. Put on your boots and click into your bindings. Do the same drills as above. Notice how the forward pitch built into a ski boot slightly changes your stacked stance. Try to keep it as stacked as you can. Key is to not be levered against the front or back of the boot with your shin or calf. Fore/aft shifting should be done with out levering leg against boot cuff. Move back and forth between aft, ideal, and fore. Try slightly lifting your heels up without levering leg on boot cuff. Try lifting balls of feet doing the same.
Now DO lever leg against boot cuff. Keep flexing forward in the ankle until you feel your shin come in solid contact with the front of your boot. Continue ankle flexing forward and feel the boot top bend. You have now added your shin and ski boot to your balance platform, further deteriorating your through-the-foot ideal balance. Your lower leg is now part of your balance platform, and accentuated muscle activity is recruited to keep you upright. Feel it? Try holding that position for 10 minutes and see how you feel in the morning. If not for the added platform provided by the ski, you would not be able to even remain standing.
Ok, reverse. Reverse your ankle flexing (called extending) until your levered strongly against the back of your boot with your calf. You just passed through ideal balance, and out again. From muscle/stance efficiency,,, to muscle intensity. From through-the-foot balance, to a boot/leg/foot platform. Both these levered balance states, while lacking in pure efficiency, do have situational uses in skiing, and we will be learning to use them when we get on snow. I'll explain their appropriate situational usages then.
These MAP part 3 in-house exercises serve as a stepping stone to developing balance skills and sensory awareness on snow, which we will delve straight into in MAP part 4.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
FastMan, can i add my voice to the chorus of 's that think you need to consolidate all your writings into a book. M&P3 is once again very clear, concise and eminently sensible advice.
Never minded the lifting of the inside ski.....but the tip will be the nearest to the snow otherwise the weight is wrong. Also, it helps get the weight onto the outside ski and also can get rid on the hideous A-frame which defines a lot of modern skiing.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
FastMan, I am gonna print that off and take it home
Quick question for you - there are another two planes of balance Rotational and Vertical that you don`t mention... was that to save confusion or where you concentrating on the key players?
FastMan, I am gonna print that off and take it home
Quick question for you - there are another two planes of balance Rotational and Vertical that you don`t mention... was that to save confusion or where you concentrating on the key players?
Yes, I definitely recognize those two. I do cover them, I just personally separate them out of the balance category. I call them ROTATION SKILLS and FLEXION/EXTENSION SKILLS, and focus on them individually. I see them as separate skill areas because in my teaching progressions each can be varied while utilizing a single balance platform to produce specific desired performance results.
From MAP part 1:
Quote:
Skiing is a collage of many separate skill areas, blended together into a symphony of cohesive movement and performance. Think, if you will, of each separate skill as an individual note. The more notes one has the ability produce, the greater the repertoire of musical pieces one can play on the snow. And there-in dwells the key to expanding comfort zones; expanding ones skill base within each skill area. Those skill areas are stance, balance, rotation, edging, flexion/extension, angulation, pressure control, and transitions. Let's start with stance.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
skimottaret wrote:
FastMan, can i add my voice to the chorus of 's that think you need to consolidate all your writings into a book. M&P3 is once again very clear, concise and eminently sensible advice.
Thanks, skimottaret. Yeah Little Tiger keeps clawing at me to do the book thing too. I actually have an internet teaching idea churning in my head. Just need to get at it.
After all it is free
After all it is free
FastMan, It's funny how we've come (from completely different points) to teach almost the exact same things! There is one point though, in relation to intermediate skiers which is that I do prefer (and the French and Italian systems do as well, but not BASI) to keep the weight mostly on the front part of the foot. This is partly because so many skiers already stand principally on their heels that this helps enormously to correct their faulty stance and consequently their faulty balance. The other reason is that it is this part of our foot that pushes us forward when we run/walk/whatever so it's logical to use this part of the foot, thus staying 'in charge'. I have checked this out with a couple of top physiologists and biomechanists (I mean the real thing as I have access when working at the University in the autumn) and they concur.
For very experienced skiers, then of course more of the foot comes into play. However I 100% agree that you should not be levering against your boots (see the thread about too stiff boots!). The balance must come from the foot. I like to think of the action against the front of the boot as 'snuggle and squeeze' - snuggle most of the time (shins into the tongue) and squeeze the tongue for action.
I know about your idea - get on with it!!!
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
I must find the time to inwardly digest the M&P bits of this, but I have noticed some of the material above about the lifting of that inside ski. OK, probably not good for someone of my inexperience to be doing, but I just wanted to say that its something I found myself doing instinctively when faced with an inside ski that would not come round as I turned. Whether this is a good thing or not I don't know. However, what I did notice was when I only had the outside ski on the ground how much this suddenly caused me to feel the edge of the ski - probably the first time I actually realised what the ski edge could do. With my weight completely on it the inside edge of that ski cut solidly into the snow - taking my entire weight and did not let go (what a realisation!!).
The trouble was once I found I could lift the inside ski to avoid the problem of it not coming round I found myself doing that rather than to solve the problem of why it wouldn't come round. This persisted until MK this year where I was encouraged to pedal the skis - as I pushed down on the outside to ease up on the inside, but still leave it on the snow - it wasn't long before it felt better and I think it must have looked better. Also, I think it is analogous to the clutch/accelarator movement in a car when you do it properly - weight onto one as the weight comes off the other.
All these experiences seem to come out in the discussions above which I just think is quite neat
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
easiski, confused now, do you advocate a plantar flexed position as 'neutral' and doesn't that do mean unspeakable things to the arch of the foot?
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
) will have their hips aligned vertically above their feet, and their shoulders and head directly above their hips. This position puts the skier in the strongest possible position, as well as in a position that best allows them to respond athletically to the changing forces, snow, and terrain experienced while skiing. This contrasts with the non-stacked position, where exaggerated knee flexion drops the hips behind the feet, and low,,, there's major compensating forward flexion at the waist,,, and the weight has dropped back on the heels. This is not a strong position, or even remotely athletic, but it's unfortunately very common. Why? The answer often has it's roots in fear.
)
