 Poster: A snowHead
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Time for me to add my 2 centimes.
But first a little background on me (for those who don't know). I've been involved in ski making for personal experimental and as a very minor brand for nearly 20 years now (35 if you count my early experiments with snowboards). I've made a few 100 pairs of skis and won a few international awards for doing so (Environmantal and Performance) I've worked with a couple of other minor brands and got to know some of the techs of the larger brands. I don't make anything at the moment but I will when time and space allows.
(I will say ski, but the same applies to snowboards)
Pre 2000 for the most part, ski were made by whoevers name was on them. Now (bar a few exeptions) everyones skis are made all over the place. Salamon branded skis are made in at least 10 different factories in at least 7 different countries. Some of the biggest names are just a brand and don't make anything. Others make their own skis and lots of others. There are a fair number of ski factories that make lots of different brands but ave no brand of their own.
What is good what is not? Quite a difficut question unless you get realy specific? Why? A good example is a huge (possibly the worlds largest) ski Factory in Poland, they will make anything for anybody. You choose everything, including the quality of materials AND the quality of QA, it all comes down to price. They make some exelent skis for some well know brands and some absolute trash for some others.
There are some legacy makers still out there, Nidecker snowboards still make some boards in Switzerland, Stokli still make a few skis in Switzerland. Dynastar retain a small manufacturing facility in Sallanches France etc.
The only large manufacturing facility owned by the brand that I know of is Elan of Solvinia, they are unique as the also make lots of ski for other brands, but they do charge for it as there is no point in competing on price in this market.
Materials - If they are not made in China (Vietnam etc) the ski specific materials are all from Europe (or a tiny bit from Japan). But there are many grades and thickness of base and edge.
I used to use 2.5mm edges with a base of Okulen 6000 (similar to PTEX 4000) in 1.8mm. Why the race spec base is the hardest not just the fastest. The thicker the base and edge the more resistant to abuse and the more times the ski can be serviced. Yes there is a weight penalty be we are talking 50g in a 2m ski. The cost difference might be 40% over the cheapest base n edge, but my cost was more about small quantity (1km instead of 10000km) of base and edge. And for me the cost of base and edge was <5% of the real cost of making a pair of skis.
Rental skis - All brands make rental specific skis, they have thicker base, edge and topsheet. They weigh more and cost more. Not all rental shops use rental intended skis.
General durability - A mix of how much care in making, what it's made out of and how it was designed.
Value for money - If it's purely bang for your buck, Decathalon! end of story. If it's the best (mainstream) you can buy in terms of how its made and what it's made of you would be hard pressed to beat Stokli, but make sure they are swiss made (most aren't). But if its the best for a specific purpose, there is a whole world out there. And if you after real hand made there is a deep rabbit hole, without getting into the insanity of full custom.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Awesome post, thank you so much! Can you elaborate on a couple of areas if you have the information/don't mind sharing it?: Firstly about grades of metal for edges - which is the most durable option, and which brands use it? Also which of the big names don't make anything, and who does make their stuff for them? Cheers!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Idris, …very interesting…time for you to put up some photos!….would you be prepared to be interviewed about your experience in production?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| greengriff wrote: |
| Bergsteiger278 wrote: |
| ...whether the Kästle bzw Stöckli premium is worth it to the average skier using them for 15 days a year, is a different question.. |
That's a great question. I wonder if those considerations cross the mind of the manufacturers? Even a poorly built ski could last for years at 15 days year. Also I wonder if Kastle/Stockli owners keep their skis long enough to make sense financially, or like the rest of us do they see an ad for a new model, go 'ooh shiny' and fork over another £1000, when there's still a ton of fun left in their old skis. |
I think that is the right question to ask.
I love a bargain but I am struck that some of the best vale for money purchases have been expensive things that I paid full price for have been spot on and really lasted
In outdoor gear the examples have been
1. Wild Country Quasar tent (now rebranded Terra Nova but still made) - something like 300 quid in 1991. Still working brilliantly. Recently resealed the seams. Terra Nova will still repair and replace every bit of it.
2. Arcteryx sidewinder jacket - 400 quid in 2000. It's been in occasional use for the last few years and is finally getting fully retired because the goretex is delaminating
3. Arcteryx beta bibs 2005 - still going
4. Stockli Stormrider XL 2004 - 500 Euro flat - still skied a few days a year and still performs really well
I reckon though that you need to ski a reasonable amount and have a more than one pair of skis to get real value out of the longevity of Stocklis
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Fri 4-02-22 13:43; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Check out the link in Idris' footer, you can see the beautiful skis he makes.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
And if you after real hand made there is a deep rabbit hole
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Real hand made is also highly variable. I've had four pairs of hand made skis from the same (sadly departed) brand. Two deteriorated very quickly. The third is a warranty pair that refuses to die having been skied over rocks, down the side of dams, across roads, car parks and the odd railway track. It's got a lot of carbon in it and I think this explains the unnaturally long lifespan. The last is still going but hasn't been as badly abused.
Others I have spoken to have similar stories with different boutique brands. It varies, even within the brand.
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@Idris, good post!
| Idris wrote: |
There are some legacy makers still out there, Nidecker snowboards still make some boards in Switzerland, Stokli still make a few skis in Switzerland. Dynastar retain a small manufacturing facility in Sallanches France etc.
The only large manufacturing facility owned by the brand that I know of is Elan of Solvinia, they are unique as the also make lots of ski for other brands, but they do charge for it as there is no point in competing on price in this market. |
I'm pretty sure Fischer and Blizzard also make their own skis/own the factories, though I imagine their lower end stuff is also made somewhere else.
| Idris wrote: |
Value for money - If it's purely bang for your buck, Decathalon! end of story. If it's the best (mainstream) you can buy in terms of how its made and what it's made of you would be hard pressed to beat Stokli, but make sure they are swiss made (most aren't). But if its the best for a specific purpose, there is a whole world out there. And if you after real hand made there is a deep rabbit hole, without getting into the insanity of full custom. |
That's an important point too. Design/shaping matters too, and for most people probably more than construction as most people realistically aren't gonna get multiple hundreds of days of use out of their skis.
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| philwig wrote: |
| greengriff wrote: |
| Does top sheet style influence ski performance? I know next to nothing about skis, but in snowboards there are two main types of construction. A thick 'cap' which goes all the way to the metal edges, and a much thinner top in a 'sandwich' where you can see the edges of the mid layers. 'Cap' snowboards tended to be damper and 'deader' under your feet (in my experience - this might not be a universal truth) but more resistant to superficial damage. Maybe this is the case with skis too - i.e. the maker chooses to sacrifice some durability with a performance goal in mind? |
Obviously not. No top sheet is going to be 100% resilient against for example someone riding over it. |
Mmm not sure about that. Sidewall (ie not cap) construction skis should be better for basically everything (torsional resistance, power transmission, damping, impact resistance, etc) bar cosmetic chipping. Just as you say with race boards, I don't think anyone makes race skis with cap construction. Cap is cheaper, saves a bit of weight, and is a bit more resistant to chipping when you bang skis together.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| greengriff wrote: |
| Awesome post, thank you so much! Can you elaborate on a couple of areas if you have the information/don't mind sharing it?: Firstly about grades of metal for edges - which is the most durable option, and which brands use it? Also which of the big names don't make anything, and who does make their stuff for them? Cheers! |
Edges, all the edge makers offer all shapes in all grades of steel, who uses what in which ski.....a university materials lab might be able to tell you wilth a lot of testing?
Salomon haven't made a ski in years (they do make prototypes). Atomic (who are part of the same group) do make some of their high end stuff, otherwise half the ski world have or do make Salomon...
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| valais2 wrote: |
| @Idris, …very interesting…time for you to put up some photos!….would you be prepared to be interviewed about your experience in production? |
Photos another day. Yes I am and I have been previously.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| clarky999 wrote: |
| philwig wrote: |
| greengriff wrote: |
| Does top sheet style influence ski performance? I know next to nothing about skis, but in snowboards there are two main types of construction. A thick 'cap' which goes all the way to the metal edges, and a much thinner top in a 'sandwich' where you can see the edges of the mid layers. 'Cap' snowboards tended to be damper and 'deader' under your feet (in my experience - this might not be a universal truth) but more resistant to superficial damage. Maybe this is the case with skis too - i.e. the maker chooses to sacrifice some durability with a performance goal in mind? |
Obviously not. No top sheet is going to be 100% resilient against for example someone riding over it. |
Mmm not sure about that. Sidewall (ie not cap) construction skis should be better for basically everything (torsional resistance, power transmission, damping, impact resistance, etc) bar cosmetic chipping. Just as you say with race boards, I don't think anyone makes race skis with cap construction. Cap is cheaper, saves a bit of weight, and is a bit more resistant to chipping when you bang skis together. |
There are many skis that have the cap conected with a fiberglass layer accross the bottom of the core these for most cases work just as well as sidewall, but fashion dictatates sidwall for higher end. Sidewall is better if you are making small voume stuff as you don't need the molds + there is some fancy cahnges you can make. Many that look like sidewall are just sandwich construction but the side of the sandwich looks like a sidewall.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Fascinating, @Idris's talents are wide ranging. Love to understand more, I just work on trying to explain what I want to the shop and then trying some of their suggestions. No idea of their construction!
(In my case Rossignol, when I am back in France I will have to look to see where they were manufactured; I thought they made some of their models in Sallanches but mine probably aren't high enough end for that).
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| gorilla wrote: |
| Quote: |
And if you after real hand made there is a deep rabbit hole
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Real hand made is also highly variable. I've had four pairs of hand made skis from the same (sadly departed) brand. Two deteriorated very quickly. The third is a warranty pair that refuses to die having been skied over rocks, down the side of dams, across roads, car parks and the odd railway track. It's got a lot of carbon in it and I think this explains the unnaturally long lifespan. The last is still going but hasn't been as badly abused.
Others I have spoken to have similar stories with different boutique brands. It varies, even within the brand. |
Also my experience. Have had some awful hand made skis and also my favourites!
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You know it makes sense.
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| BobinCH wrote: |
| gorilla wrote: |
| Quote: |
And if you after real hand made there is a deep rabbit hole
|
Real hand made is also highly variable. I've had four pairs of hand made skis from the same (sadly departed) brand. Two deteriorated very quickly. The third is a warranty pair that refuses to die having been skied over rocks, down the side of dams, across roads, car parks and the odd railway track. It's got a lot of carbon in it and I think this explains the unnaturally long lifespan. The last is still going but hasn't been as badly abused.
Others I have spoken to have similar stories with different boutique brands. It varies, even within the brand. |
Also my experience. Have had some awful hand made skis and also my favourites! |
If they were from the Western USA then I think I know why 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Idris wrote: |
| BobinCH wrote: |
| gorilla wrote: |
| Quote: |
And if you after real hand made there is a deep rabbit hole
|
Real hand made is also highly variable. I've had four pairs of hand made skis from the same (sadly departed) brand. Two deteriorated very quickly. The third is a warranty pair that refuses to die having been skied over rocks, down the side of dams, across roads, car parks and the odd railway track. It's got a lot of carbon in it and I think this explains the unnaturally long lifespan. The last is still going but hasn't been as badly abused.
Others I have spoken to have similar stories with different boutique brands. It varies, even within the brand. |
Also my experience. Have had some awful hand made skis and also my favourites! |
If they were from the Western USA then I think I know why |
IIRC correctly, gorilla had some PM Gear skis - and again if I recall correctly, I think I remember reading somewhere that Idris spent some time building skis with them too?
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Poster: A snowHead
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^^That was such a cool period in the mid 2000s with all the indie ski brands popping up everywhere with such innovative designs and shapes. For better or worse now the big brands have caught up (/shapes have been refined enough) I think that game is up, at least until the next wave of design innovation is discovered.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Idris wrote: |
| BobinCH wrote: |
| gorilla wrote: |
| Quote: |
And if you after real hand made there is a deep rabbit hole
|
Real hand made is also highly variable. I've had four pairs of hand made skis from the same (sadly departed) brand. Two deteriorated very quickly. The third is a warranty pair that refuses to die having been skied over rocks, down the side of dams, across roads, car parks and the odd railway track. It's got a lot of carbon in it and I think this explains the unnaturally long lifespan. The last is still going but hasn't been as badly abused.
Others I have spoken to have similar stories with different boutique brands. It varies, even within the brand. |
Also my experience. Have had some awful hand made skis and also my favourites! |
If they were from the Western USA then I think I know why |
I had some PM Gears Lhasa “blems” and they were dreadful! A pair of Countdown 107’s not much better. In a different budget bracket but the Dentist Powder Ski shop has me well and truly hooked, although always looking for options to ween off them with something local…
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
IIRC correctly, gorilla had some PM Gear skis - and again if I recall correctly, I think I remember reading somewhere that Idris spent some time building skis with them too?
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The second pair of 186 Lhasa's were the tits and were amazing in anything more than 2" of fresh snow. But they needed a lot of input. I am now old and other skis are easier.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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