 Poster: A snowHead
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@clarky999, this is kinda exactly my point. The type of skiing (speed, turn radius, terrain) are much bigger factors than the height of skier.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Daedra wrote: |
| If the skier is balanced over the middle, the lever doesn't matter. |
Who skis in perfect fore/aft balance 100% of the time? I certainly don't, and don't see many skiers that do. Skiing is a dynamic sport, increasingly so as you get better at it. The constantly changing environment we ski in means that our balance is dynamic, not static. We move around on our skis a considerable amount, laterally and fore/aft.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Peter Stevens, ….. I'm not going to factor in "swing-weight" just yet. Nor mention about wet-wrap torsion boxes and multi layer laminates, titanal layers, ABS and cap sidewalls, flex patterns, camber, and side-cut.
But I will suggest that after 15 weeks on snow you really should be getting to grips with all of these things.
Ditch the mini-skis and go for something 175-180 mm-ish.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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With luxury goods sold through big marketing budgets never imagine there to be a correlation between price and "quality" - whatever "quality" may mean.
OP, you've done 15 weeks' skiing and had 5-8 lessons, and describe yourself as a beginner/intermediate "Can do blues and some reds... ". IMO you should get some more lessons before you worry much about the skis, you will enjoy your skiing on blue runs so much more if you reach the point that you can do reds and some blacks. Assuming you're averagely fit and confident then fifteen weeks with sufficient tuition should have got you to that stage at least.
Tot up the thousands you've spent in mountainside restaurants and bars and then imagine you'd spent it on lessons.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@rob@rar, I get that. Bit I'm still not convinced that the ability to bend the skis (I.e. weight, strength and aggressiveness of the skier, ski stiffness) and the environment (terrain, speed, radius) play the role which is negligible compared to this lever length as much as the "height plus/minus X" formula suggests.
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@Daedra, I agree that lots of factors are in play, including the skiers ability to balance over the middle of the ski. But for sure a longer lever (taller skier) will exert more force, that is simple physics and why height is a factor in determining DIN settings. It is also true that a more skilled skier will be better balanced and more able to manage the forces exerted, which is why my 13 year old daughter has DH skis longer than my piste skis - she is a racer with the commensurate ski level (and I am too old to enjoy the level of rebound her skis generate!). Which also proves the point that there is no perfect way to calculate the correct length of ski; skill level, environment, personal preference, type/radius of turn and a host of other factors come in to play.
@rob@rar, is correct as always, balance is dynamic by default. I would go even further, being able to manage changes in fore-aft balance through a turn is one of the fundamental goals for any skier and a skill most struggle with.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Daedra wrote: |
| If the skier is balanced over the middle, the lever doesn't matter. |
Who skis in perfect fore/aft balance 100% of the time? I certainly don't, and don't see many skiers that do. Skiing is a dynamic sport, increasingly so as you get better at it. The constantly changing environment we ski in means that our balance is dynamic, not static. We move around on our skis a considerable amount, laterally and fore/aft. |
Exactly.
IME. Remaining "In Balance", is not the same thing as standing over the middle of the skis....especially in uneven terrain, such as moguls.
Then there is also pressurising the tips of the skis at the start of the turn and thrusting forwards at the start of the turn in longer turns.
At the end of the turn, it sometimes pays to allow the weight to go slightly back of centre, to get the tail of the ski to bite....so one's weight is constantly moving forwards and backwards along the ski (by sliding the feet back and forth) - both to remain in balance and to get the most out of the ski design.
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With apologies to Clint Eastwood, on social media there are two kinds of people: those who know everything (because they have written thousands of posts) and those who know nothing.
This is the consequence of a basically unmoderated forum.
In due course, the place fills up with those who know everything and these beat up the rest. Those who actually know something *and* could write about it tend to s0d off because they have better things to do.
Having been in this business in my day job, I know how it works.
It's a pity. But there aren't many ski forums in English.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@spyderjon, 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@clarky999, I think DH skis are longer these days to make them more difficult to ski on ... Ergo for safety reasons...
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| zikomo wrote: |
| But for sure a longer lever (taller skier) will exert more force, that is simple physics and why height is a factor in determining DIN settings. |
It does. But is it the main force while skiing?
The force R in this picture is unaffected by the height, and is proportional to the weight.
As for the forces that are actually affected by the lever: Longer skis counterbalance the forces affected by the longer lever, not increase them, i.e. they help minimise disbalance. For example, if a skier hits a bump, the imbalance created will be affected by the height, and longer skis help with that. Same goes for higher speed - the higher the speed, the more imbalance a bump (or actually a skier making a mistake) can create, longer skis help with that. Downhill skis are so long not because the skiers are tall  .
Back to the OP:
TS took stiff skis, shortened it, hence making it easier to bend, and started skiing at slow-ish speeds, thoroughly enjoying it, because he was able to properly bend them, and the skis being Stoklis have good torsional stiffness in them. He didn't need the ski length at the speeds he was skiing at (hence the lever didn't have much effect). If he went with longer skis he probably wouldn't be as happy on them. I think this is just a perfect illustration that the ski stiffness, aggressiveness (or lack thereof) and speed played much bigger role in choosing the ideal ski length. One can argue, of course, that the TS should have gone with longer and softer skis, but that would only prove that the magic formula only works with the stiffness being tied to the skier's level.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Daedra wrote: |
| But is it the main force while skiing? |
No, not the main force, but that doesn't mean those forces don't exist in skiing.
A skier's height can be a useful proxy when talking about ski length, assuming the skier's weight is roughly in proportion to their height. If you are about average height (and therefore average weight), selecting the ski length in the middle of the range for whatever ski you are looking at is a good place to start. Above average height, so for the longer ski in the range; below average height go for the shorter ski in the range.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Peter Stevens wrote: |
| Wah! Wah!Wah! Everyone's being mean to me |
Yep you addressed a thread to the community with a provocative title and then proceeded to double down on your naive or just plain trolling opinion.
So on your view we should just congratulate and laud the most facile and erroneous opinions because that's how forums work? Hmmm....
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Peter Stevens, Spyderjon is absolutely right and is the only advice you should take from him, Visit TGR forums. i find them a lot more friendly and obviously a lot more knowledgeable. I know Spyderjon has been selling skis forever but what could he possibly know living in Nottingham. The biggest hill near him is George's hill and i go down that on my bike with out using brakes.
Youll make lot of decent online chums and gain loads of info from real skiers
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Peter Stevens, Spyderjon is absolutely right and is the only advice you should take from him, Visit TGR forums. i find them a lot more friendly and obviously a lot more knowledgeable. I know Spyderjon has been selling skis forever but what could he possibly know living in Nottingham. The biggest hill near him is George's hill and i go down that on my bike with out using brakes.
Youll make lot of decent online chums and gain loads of info from real skiers
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Mother hucker,
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Those are American forums; thanks for the windup.
Daedra's post is interesting and probably explains why I like these. But why would a shorter ski be easier to bend?
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@Peter Stevens, you obviously did not check out the link in my earlier post.
a shorter ski is not necessarily easier to bend, that depends on overall stiffness, however, a shorter ski may just tend to have a shorter turn radius.
if after "15 weeks" skiing you are still skiing short skis you may never appreciate the qualities of longer radius skis.
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Definite troll
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Inner tip lead...?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Isn't there significant logic, although used in different format, that bring a shorter ski into the equation here?
If someone asks about a rockered ski that's exactly what happens. Collectively the advice may agree on for example a 175cm total length, but with rocker/early rise (sic) that may in reality be a ski with it's cambered section at something like 20cm shorter in effect. Making a flat piste ski length of 155cm, which is what the example here is.
If you've not got significant terrain / localised topographical variances then you don't use the total length of the ski. Isn't that the same thing as just using a shorter ski? But offered as competent advice, both on here and by supply chain.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Peter Stevens wrote: |
| But why would a shorter ski be easier to bend? |
They just are, that is how ski manufacturers design the different lengths of a particular model to behave.
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| rjs wrote: |
| Peter Stevens wrote: |
| But why would a shorter ski be easier to bend? |
They just are, that is how ski manufacturers design the different lengths of a particular model to behave. |
Sort of, but there's an important point here which is that broadly you can make a ski (or board) in any length with any flex you like. The two aren't related by the mechanics, just manufacturers.
Manufacturers sell a range of skis in a particular model for different weight skiers. When picking one, you're matching your weight to the flex of the ski. The length (within a particular model) is not the key issue, the flex is. You often hear people saying "a few cm won't make much difference". They are right in terms of running length, but wrong in that they are discounting the beefier construction and therefore stronger flex of a longer model.
You could in principle make all your skis (in a particular model) the same length, and just sell different flexes for different weight skiers. Burton did that with the Fish snowboard in the first model year. That confused both retailers and consumers, and they switched to using different nominal lengths for each flex pattern. The length isn't what makes the difference, the flex does. The manufacturers tie that to length to make it easy for retailers and skiers to deal with.
A skier could opt for a longer or shorter ski design, which leads me to...
| skimastaaah wrote: |
| It's all about "moments", or mass times distance. (m x l)... These forces are variable due to skier weight (ma), skier speed (v), CoG, and effective ski contact, ski rigidity (torsional and longitudinal), normal react to left/right skis turning left/right. ... |
I'm not sure what this all means, but it does not appear to explain the belief that taller people of the same weight need longer skis.
Why do you think that is so, please?
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You know it makes sense.
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When buying new skis it would be nice if one could shortlist five pairs of skis and then just test them in different sizes like jackets or even cars. But most of us just have to resort to reviews because it would be next to impossible to find the shortlist of desired skis at one rental shop. And if one can afford just one ski trip per year, how much of your time would you spend faffing with skis anyway?
I was lucky. I rented a pair which were horrible and felt like 10kg a piece when skiing. Went back and demanded a better pair. Got skis that were very nice and perfectly suitable for me. Bought a pair after the trip and they still feel perfect five years later.
When browsing skis online, most of the manufactures offer the same jargon of balance, control and ease of turns etc. The reviews do mostly the same but in a lengthier manner. You still don't know how they feel under your feet. But what can you do?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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"Manufacturers sell a range of skis in a particular model for different weight skiers. When picking one, you're matching your weight to the flex of the ski."
That would suggest that a longer ski (of the same model) must be of a thicker construction (or use stiffer materials). IOW, if you supported a given model ski on two points say 1m apart, and applied a load in the middle, the longer version would deflect less (at that mid-point) than the shorter version. That makes sense.
"When buying new skis it would be nice if one could shortlist five pairs of skis and then just test them in different sizes "
The problem is that you need to be an excellent skier to tell the difference - even on a specific surface and under fixed conditions. I know the 10k+ post-count posters here who label someone a "troll" are great skiers but most people aren't that good, especially living in the UK and due to holiday limits etc being able to ski only once or twice a year.
I did try to do this (renting different ones) but one could spend a whole week messing about with it, and in some cases going back to the rental shop is a lot of faff. I ended up with that 156cm Stockli which felt really good.
There might be opportunities where there is rental at the top or bottom of a piste but I don't recall seeing it, outside of exhibition type events (saw it once at the top of the hill at Filsmoos, but you had to be a very good skier to get down that hill).
Hence I think most people who rent just rent what they can get for 20 quid a day or whatever. Many rental shops actually have very little choice, with the top models being roughly 500 quid skis. Clearly they know their market. The places where I have been usually have almost zero Brits (a chalet holiday in Courchevel was one exception). When I look around, I see more or less all the old-timers (who are usually locals, skiing since age 5, and who ski very well and naturally) having their own skis, and often quite old kit.
And the people who buy their own probably buy something whose spec matches their perceived ability, which like I wrote earlier is why manufacturers product-differentiate with a scale where the price goes up at the same time as the *specified* skier ability because customer self-esteem would mean they would have problems extracting 1k+ from a "beginner/intermediate". Personally I would rather buy less, buy better, and keep it for longer, and if I buy a good ski but can't ski it well then I need to get better, not buy a beginner ski and then try to flog it on ebay etc. Same with everything else in skiing - the better stuff costs more, but there aren't beginner ski jackets and expert ski jackets.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@Peter Stevens, I'd be very interested to know just where you have been skiing, and just what ski-kit you have.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Back to reviews for a moment. Although I have tested myriad skis I bought a pair of Bent Chetlers 5 years ago based purely on the reviews as I wasn't able to demo a pair and had spotted a good sale offer. One review especially sold it to me, a New Zealand one where the powder biased ski had surprised the testers with it's all round ablility. Funnily enough all the reviews seemed to be spot on, especially concerning their on piste ability and ease of turning in tight forest situations. I've probably spent about 140 days on them since then so I do feel that I know them inside out. I can't think of any BS or obviously meaningless claims that were made across the reviews.
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Mon 6-01-20 19:33; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Peter Stevens, lots of very controversial stuff in your comment.
1. I'm not a very good skier, and I wasn't at the time I bought my first pair of skis, but even then I was able to feel the difference between the skis. And those skis were all in the specific category - longer turn carvers (aka gs).
2. I wouldn't buy a pair of skis without testing them. I cannot remember a single resort where there wasn't a ski rental at the bottom of the main lift. Again, when I was buying my skis I tried 4 pairs overall, made my choice and it took me a bit over a day. The fuss was worth it.
But you're right, not all ski rentals have all the range. For example, this year I do want to try those stocklis people talking about, hence I planned a trip to Swirzerland.
3. Skis that don't suit you can encourage you to compensate your lack of ability with wrong coping mechanism. Another problem they can actually stall your progress. They may not encourage you to get better if the gap is too big.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Scarpa wrote: |
Back to reviews for a moment....
I bought a pair of Bent Chetlers 4 years ago based purely on the reviews as I wasn't able to demo a pair and had spotted a good sale offer....
I can't think of any BS or obviously meaningless claims that were made across the reviews. |
I also bought my Line SFB skis after reading a ton of reviews, especially Blister gear. Most said the same about them being fun, playful etc - I guess if enough say the same it’s probably true - and I’ve been very happy with them.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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"I cannot remember a single resort where there wasn't a ski rental at the bottom of the main lift. "
Yes; that's true. My observation has been that I have almost never skied down to the bottom of the main lift. Often one "can" but there is either a very long flat bit or an extremely steep bit. So, yeah, one can but it could take time to try out say 5 skis.
I agree one can tell the difference even if one is a beginner; that is what I reported originally. However, it seems contrary to the perceived wisdom that (say) a beginner should not go anywhere near "expert/advanced" skis. And if you read some of the above, the (patronising) explanation given is that anybody can ski ok on "child" size skis.
Hence my assertion that most ski reviews are nonsense, especially in the way they categorise the expertise level.
" I do want to try those stocklis people talking about, hence I planned a trip to Swirzerland"
You can rent them outside Switzerland, e.g. Italy. 40 euros a day for 1 day seems to be the going rate. But they don't have a big range, and one shop I visited had only the longest size. The surprising thing is if you try to buy it; none of the discounters I looked at carry them. Obviously this is a carefully managed policy by Stockli to prop up the pricing 
BTW this place does some great deals on ski gear. They are German but ship to the UK.
https://team101.de/
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Peter Stevens wrote: |
| "inner ski and then try to flog it on ebay etc. Same with everything else in skiing - the better stuff costs more, but there aren't beginner ski jackets and expert ski jackets. |
Go into Decathlon. Today they were selling beginners ski jackets and trousers, £20! Same at Lidl / Aldi
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@Peter Stevens, How about you drop the tiresome obsession with post counts. It's seen often on forums and usually is the defensive distraction of someone losing an argument.
Of course not everyone advising you here will be experts and real experts don't actually do that much research into skis as they tend to get them for free or get paid to ski them. But most people will have done considerably more skiing than you, skied more skis and not be sore afrit of skiing to the bottom of the mountain.
FWIW there is a kernel of truth in your diatribes - a lot of ski marketing is a game of smoke and mirrors and things like NGT* are rife. But that doesn't mean your original hypothesis is true nor that skis can't be differentiated.
*new graphics technology.
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| Peter Stevens wrote: |
| However, it seems contrary to the perceived wisdom that (say) a beginner should not go anywhere near "expert/advanced" skis. And if you read some of the above, the (patronising) explanation given is that anybody can ski ok on "child" size skis. |
If your definition of expert equipment is, for piste skis, more characteristics in common with a race-oriented ski (with respect to geometry, length, construction, stiffness), and for off-piste skis an increasing tendency for suitability for deep snow (width, length, geometry and perhaps stiffness) then the perceived wisdom that a beginner is best advised to learn on different types of ski is absolutely correct. I'd go further and say for many intermediates ski choice should not be driven by the niche or extremes of the category of ski they choose, as the wrong ski for them will inhibit skill development rather than encourage it.
As for the 'patronising' explanation about ski length of very short skis, anyone who understands how skiing works will know that a short ski behaves in a different way to a similar ski in a longer length. That might not be a significant difference in the usual gap between different lengths of the same model ski, which is typically a little less or a little more than 10cm, but a more extreme difference between the length the ski is designed to be skied at and the length actually chosen (too long or too short) will introduce possibly unwanted performance characteristics.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| @Peter Stevens, How about you drop the tiresome obsession with post counts. It's seen often on forums and usually is the defensive distraction of someone losing an argument. |
Indeed.
Criticising high post count is as baseless as criticising a low post count because the poster is 'inexperienced and has little to contribute'. Clearly both criticisms are nonsense.
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No idea on skis, but I've done some snowboard testing for White Lines. I can attest that we were encouraged to write honestly and that we were free to express ourselves if we didn't like something, only condition was that we had to justify it and suggest what type of rider it might suit instead. Reviews got published verbatim.
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FAQ
