 Poster: A snowHead
|
|
@under a new name, I'm just suggesting that there may be better alternatives to BASI 1 for someone interested in progressing their skiing who is not interested in ski instructing. Private or group coaching for example.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
@uktrailmonster,
Doing an instructor coarse is more than just receiving coaching, elements that help you identify issues in technique of others and the shadowing are fantastic for helping a skier understand what they need to work on, what their strengths are.
They give a great insight and help you attune your mind to what a coach is saying to better complete the tasks set, to learn to feel. The list goes on but as I said before you get out of it what you want.
The slopes would be so much safer if everyone had to do a basic instructors coarse you learn more situational awareness, you learn to identify danger areas because if you continue down the instructor paths you are responsible for the lives of those you are instructing.
Just because someone may never want to instruct does not mean that they can not benefit enormously from doing an instructor coarse be it BASI, CSIA or Snowsports England etc, both in their own skiing ability and their ability to understand and therefore gain more benefit from future coaching courses.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
@uktrailmonster, sorry, if it didn't come across but I was totally agreeing with you 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
uktrailmonster, My feeling is that to get really good you have to get to the point where you are teaching yourself.
Doing some form of instructor/coach training can be one way to get a theoretical foundation that you can use on yourself. You also get practice at movement analysis that you can use to pick up new ideas from even better skiers.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| speed098 wrote: |
@uktrailmonster,
Doing an instructor coarse is more than just receiving coaching, elements that help you identify issues in technique of others and the shadowing are fantastic for helping a skier understand what they need to work on, what their strengths are.
They give a great insight and help you attune your mind to what a coach is saying to better complete the tasks set, to learn to feel. The list goes on but as I said before you get out of it what you want.
The slopes would be so much safer if everyone had to do a basic instructors coarse you learn more situational awareness, you learn to identify danger areas because if you continue down the instructor paths you are responsible for the lives of those you are instructing.
Just because someone may never want to instruct does not mean that they can not benefit enormously from doing an instructor coarse be it BASI, CSIA or Snowsports England etc, both in their own skiing ability and their ability to understand and therefore gain more benefit from future coaching courses. |
I'm not saying that an instructor course is not worth doing, only that there are more specific training courses aimed at improving your technique if you have zero intention of becoming a ski instructor. Maybe something along the lines of what Warren Smith offers (not that I've been on any of his courses) would probably be more useful to skiers looking to improve their technique, especially more advanced skiers who are likely to ski well beyond the level of BASI L1 or CSIA L1 anyway. In fact the only reason I can imagine taking BASI L1 is as a stepping stone to becoming a ski instructor.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
@rjs, I don't know any high level ski athletes who justbteach themselves. There's always external input.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I wouldn't say that an L1 course is of no or little value for someone who has no interest in going on to teach. After all, it's just a week of good coaching, focusing on the fundamentals. Even the stuff you do on teaching beginners has value for the personal skiing of even good skiers. But it's not the only option, and a week at a technical camp such as those run by Warren, Snoworks or (dare I say) Inside Out might well be a better option.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@rob@rar, that's all I was trying to say too. I may look into some sort of summer training course and I will consider BASI courses in that list too. I suppose it will depend largely on what's actually available that fits my schedule. It would have to be something local i.e. MK or Hemel. It would also have to be at a decent high level to be worth it for me - I'm not sure L1 would do much for me. I'm not even sure if there's anything that would fit that bill indoors?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
@under a new name, The same thing is taught in the top level race coaching course, I was just putting it into my own words.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@uktrailmonster, the trainers even on an L1 course are pretty skilled at making the course challenging for everyone there, regardless of their starting level. Everyone has to go through L1 to start with, so there's usually someone on the course that's already seriously good. Some imagination is required to make an indoor course challenging, but the trainers have plenty of sneaky tricks up their sleeve!
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
@uktrailmonster, Our performance clinics at Hemel can be ramped up to be rather challenging 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| skimottaret wrote: |
| @uktrailmonster, Our performance clinics at Hemel can be ramped up to be rather challenging |
Thanks, I will definitely look into those then. I'm not necessarily looking for the ultimate challenge, more fine tuning of my technique and correcting any bad habits that I may not be aware of.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
| 1969jma wrote: |
| balernoStu wrote: |
| jedster wrote: |
The thing I find weird about BASI 1 is I would have expected that ski instructor training was about turning good skiers into good instructors not fixing the skiing in the first place. From what I can see, people doing technique training for BASI 1 are miles away from the standard of skiing that I would pay to use as an example, even for my kids. |
I imagine your kids are long past the intended remit of the L1 instructor qualification! |
I thought BASI 1 & 2 were just fridge instructors qualifications. |
L1: yes, indoors or plastic, while L2 is a qualification for teaching on piste at ski areas in the mountains (subject to local laws and regulations).
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
| skimottaret wrote: |
... I usually put a bit of thought into the background music but didnt on this one... |
Thanks!!!! 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
| uktrailmonster wrote: |
| kieranm wrote: |
| Quote: |
So do you think a L3 or even a L2 instructor is going to be happy teaching newbies on the magic carpet all day? It's just not going to happen.
|
There are plenty of examples of that, though perhaps not full time. Some of us do it because we actually quite like teaching people to ski, and teaching complete beginners can be some of the most rewarding lessons. |
Well if there were enough L2 and L3 instructors who did wish to spend a significant amount of their time in snowdomes, then there wouldn't be any demand for L1 instructors. I'd be interested to know what percentage of snow dome instructors are actually beyond L1? |
Interesting question that I had a chat with Gilleski today; we think The Snow Centre employs the following; some full time; some part time and so just do a couple of hours a week when needed:
140 instructors
20-30 L2
10 + ISIA
5-10 or so working towards ISIA
4 IVSI / SSE4 coaches
IVSI snowboard coach
1 Full cert BASI/IASI ISTD who also holds Swiss Paton and SSE4.
1 Full Cert French
Cheers
Simon
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
Back to the original post, Dave Ryding may not be a "great skier" but he is pretty good and learnt on a dry slope in the UK.
Join the local racing club and really expand your skiing. Don't think you are too old to do this. I started in my mid 50's and though still useless my siing (but not my spelling) has improved considerably.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| johnE wrote: |
| Back to the original post, Dave Ryding may not be a "great skier" but he is pretty good |
Well in that case I'll be very happy if I can someday become even just a pretty good skiier.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| Quote: |
Would you have been more effective when helping out a bit if you had done the L1 FA coaching badge?
|
Fair point except that knowing my limitations, I didn't attempt to coach the kids on skills - I left that to more technically adept footballers (not hard to find!).
| Quote: |
So do you think a L3 or even a L2 instructor is going to be happy teaching newbies on the magic carpet all day? It's just not going to happen.
|
May be not happy but the (French) instructor who has been teaching my kids for the last few years, and I have had a lesson with, spends a lot of his time teaching beginners on the nursery slope. But I guess its just supply and demand - in the UK we have far fewer expert skiers to fill the instructing slots with.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| uktrailmonster wrote: |
| jedster wrote: |
| Quote: |
Yes, that's why L1 instructors don't coach talented 10 year old racers! They typically teach kids/adults over on the magic carpet who are total beginners.
|
I get that - would have thought there were plenty of better skiers available to do those roles though. Perhaps I'm wrong. I don't think it is waste to have high quality technical role models even for beginners. |
So do you think a L3 or even a L2 instructor is going to be happy teaching newbies on the magic carpet all day? It's just not going to happen. |
To answer your question truthfully it all depends on the individual instructor, he or she may take great pleasure in seeing the faces of young kids having so much fun and becoming hooked on this great sport.
Skiing is not just about being the best skier it is about enjoying the sport with others and introducing people be them young or old able or less able bodied. You have to experience first hand the sheer raw joy and happiness displayed by kids and less able bodied it is an addiction you just never want to end. So yes even a L4 ISDA or coach never mind a L2 can be very happy spending the day or even longer on a magic carpet, just as there will be L1 and L2 who think they should be teaching on any piste, ( thankfully I think the training courses do a pretty good job of limiting this to a very few in number ).
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| speed098 wrote: |
| uktrailmonster wrote: |
| jedster wrote: |
| Quote: |
Yes, that's why L1 instructors don't coach talented 10 year old racers! They typically teach kids/adults over on the magic carpet who are total beginners.
|
I get that - would have thought there were plenty of better skiers available to do those roles though. Perhaps I'm wrong. I don't think it is waste to have high quality technical role models even for beginners. |
So do you think a L3 or even a L2 instructor is going to be happy teaching newbies on the magic carpet all day? It's just not going to happen. |
To answer your question truthfully it all depends on the individual instructor, he or she may take great pleasure in seeing the faces of young kids having so much fun and becoming hooked on this great sport.
Skiing is not just about being the best skier it is about enjoying the sport with others and introducing people be them young or old able or less able bodied. You have to experience first hand the sheer raw joy and happiness displayed by kids and less able bodied it is an addiction you just never want to end. So yes even a L4 ISDA or coach never mind a L2 can be very happy spending the day or even longer on a magic carpet, just as there will be L1 and L2 who think they should be teaching on any piste, ( thankfully I think the training courses do a pretty good job of limiting this to a very few in number ). |
I have 2 small kids so I know all about the pleasure of seeing them learn and progress. But no decent level instructor is going to want to spend their entire professional life instructing on the magic carpet I wouldn't have thought? It's one thing spending the odd day there, another entirely when that's all you are limited to. What would even be the point of going beyond L2 if that's all you intended to do? I was only suggesting that you don't need to be able to ski at a level beyond L1 to teach beginners on a magic carpet. As you say it's way more important to have the right attitude for teaching newbies and kids than to be able to pass the Euro test etc. I know one instructor (CSIA L4) who openly admits that he's not cut out to teach kids. Other instructors who are nowhere near his level do a fantastic job with kids.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@clarky999, changed it, not sure any better
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
If the original question means objectively "great", the answer (imho) is no. That's not because it's a snowdome, it's because 99% of skiers wouldn't have the innate ability to be "great" whatever they did. Snowdome or La Grave makes no difference if you're just plain not that gifted. The assumption that if you buy enough of the right training you will eventually achieve what most people recognise as "greatness" is bogus; if you've ever had the humbling experience of free-skiing with truly great skiers, you will know they have a skill-set developed out of a level of natural talent which most of us can't even imagine.
That's not to say we couldn't all get closer to our own personal subjective level of greatness in a fridge (and the less talented are not restricted by the limits of the environment to the same degree), but even the 1% would be unlikely to achieve all-round greatness purely from skiing in a snowdome.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| Quote: |
If the original question means objectively "great", the answer (imho) is no. That's not because it's a snowdome, it's because 99% of skiers wouldn't have the innate ability to be "great" whatever they did
|
Yes - obviously. It would be like asking "can I become a great tennis player only playing indoors".
But I think the OP was asking a different question e.g. if I had Bode Miller's talent could I become grate only skiing indoors?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
still think the answer is no though - just couldnt get the feel for dealing with big forces of high speed skiing indoors
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
| jedster wrote: |
| Quote: |
If the original question means objectively "great", the answer (imho) is no. That's not because it's a snowdome, it's because 99% of skiers wouldn't have the innate ability to be "great" whatever they did
|
Yes - obviously. It would be like asking "can I become a great tennis player only playing indoors".
But I think the OP was asking a different question e.g. if I had Bode Miller's talent could I become grate only skiing indoors? |
Oh I don't know a friend of mine I did archery with, his sister said she was good at archery as well.
She played it on the Wii 
So maybe the answer is as complex as peoples perspective.
But If you ski on plastic or in a fridge on a regular basis year round, and either have lessons or do drills etc, it will help you be the best you can be on piste.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
| shep wrote: |
If the original question means objectively "great", the answer (imho) is no. That's not because it's a snowdome, it's because 99% of skiers wouldn't have the innate ability to be "great" whatever they did. Snowdome or La Grave makes no difference if you're just plain not that gifted. The assumption that if you buy enough of the right training you will eventually achieve what most people recognise as "greatness" is bogus; if you've ever had the humbling experience of free-skiing with truly great skiers, you will know they have a skill-set developed out of a level of natural talent which most of us can't even imagine.
That's not to say we couldn't all get closer to our own personal subjective level of greatness in a fridge (and the less talented are not restricted by the limits of the environment to the same degree), but even the 1% would be unlikely to achieve all-round greatness purely from skiing in a snowdome. |
I think he was asking if he could improve with regular snow dome practice, not win a WC race or Freeride World Tour! I think for most people the answer is yes and I think it's fair to say that most people could reach a reasonable modest standard (say BASI 1 or 2) with enough practice. It's hardly the realms of the skiing elite.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Quote: |
still think the answer is no though - just couldnt get the feel for dealing with big forces of high speed skiing indoors
|
I watched the Savoyard, A Swiss team and the Italian Juniours training indoors at Langraf last summer. They were fantastic and yes generated big forces and pretty high speed in their turns.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
@uktrailmonster, Must say I hadn't considered BASI L2 as being "great" previously...
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
| under a new name wrote: |
| @uktrailmonster, Must say I hadn't considered BASI L2 as being "great" previously... |
Apparently Dave Ryding isn't a 'great skier' either, from an earlier response (I'd say he is), so it may help if the OP would clarify their aims for greatness...
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
| Quote: |
Apparently Dave Ryding isn't a 'great skier' either, from an earlier response (I'd say he is), so it may help if the OP would clarify their aims for greatness...
|
Hmm his website also points out that he was skiing on snow in the Alps from the age of 8...
I'm not suggesting he didn't do most of his learning on dry slopes though.
Roger Federer is a great tennis player. Don't you have to be more than a competitive pro to be "great"?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
@balernoStu, I don't think anyone considers his L2 to be the zenith of Dave Ryding's career, not least so far.
Back in the day an L3 (today's L2) was just something that upper level athlete's picked up along the way...
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| under a new name wrote: |
@balernoStu, I don't think anyone considers his L2 to be the zenith of Dave Ryding's career, not least so far.
Back in the day an L3 (today's L2) was just something that upper level athlete's picked up along the way... |
 I didn't know he'd done L2.
| jedster wrote: |
| Quote: |
Apparently Dave Ryding isn't a 'great skier' either, from an earlier response (I'd say he is), so it may help if the OP would clarify their aims for greatness...
|
Hmm his website also points out that he was skiing on snow in the Alps from the age of 8...
I'm not suggesting he didn't do most of his learning on dry slopes though.
Roger Federer is a great tennis player. Don't you have to be more than a competitive pro to be "great"? |
Yes, most of the very good skiers I see on plastic or indoors also spend a fair bit of time training on mountains, as I can well believe DR did from an early age. My comment was more about finding out what the OP was hoping achieve. L2 ability: probably doable. Sub 20FIS points SL: that'll take a bit more than a weekly dome session. Their objective could be something different entirely.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
@balernoStu,
I was making the assumption 'cos, like, back in the day, etc. still not entirely sure why he was brought into the argument earlier on anyway 
But you are right. Depends on definition of "great". And the problem is that the better you get, the further away "great" is... IMV/Observation
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| under a new name wrote: |
| And the problem is that the better you get, the further away "great" is... IMV/Observation |
Yup.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| under a new name wrote: |
| @uktrailmonster, Must say I hadn't considered BASI L2 as being "great" previously... |
But it's a reasonable standard is it not? I think the word "great" has been taken far too literally by many in this thread. The fact remains that your average 1 or 2 week per year snow skier can improve a lot from regular practice in the fridge or dryslope and especially so if coached. I'm pretty sure the OP isn't expecting to become a "great" skier by absolute standards i.e. world class. Obviously that isn't going to happen.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I refer you, @uktrailmonster, to my comment re perceptions of "great" above. Ihave met many skiers who refer to friends x and y as "great" and I know well in advance that they are going to be rather average.
Nothing wrong with that, it's part of the learning experience.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@under a new name, spot on! The more I learn the less I know about this skiing lark! A once a week skiers definition of "great" is going to be different to someone who has done some/a lot of technical training.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| PaulC1984 wrote: |
Well I started skiing at 10 on plastic, started racing and did so until late 20s. I still ski weekly in a dome and I can certainly hold my own on the piste - all my race team would be scooting off to race camps left right and centre and id still be beating them. So I'm going to say yes you can become a god on the piste, however...
I'm not so good off piste in comparison, and that you'll never replicate indoors or on plastic. But having only done 9 weeks on snow mainly in my later years that's hardly surprising.
Regardless to what dome/artificial haters say, any skiing is better than no skiing (assuming your not practicing poor technique). |
Yeh il go with that.
I suppose the only real difference between snow dome and piste is the changeable snow conditions and light on a mountain when compared to a snow dome and also your own head telling you that the mountain is longer, steeper, faster. in reality if you control your speed and turns then theres nothing that should phase you in the long run....although snow domes don't prepare you or your muscles to do a 1km run or such like.....you will be knackered
im with Paul, practice makes perfect, get the technique and building blocks right first and If you can ski well enough in a snow dome then you can get on a mountain no problem.
like paul ive been skiing since I was 10 (albeit with a gap of 5 years from 12-17) and only been on a skiing holiday 4 times in all those years.....but id class myself as pretty competent on piste.....off piste ive never done though and don't have much desire to do so....seems like too much hard work if you ask me 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| under a new name wrote: |
I refer you, @uktrailmonster, to my comment re perceptions of "great" above. Ihave met many skiers who refer to friends x and y as "great" and I know well in advance that they are going to be rather average.
Nothing wrong with that, it's part of the learning experience. |
Well yes, but the fact remains that most people who are not "great" skiers can still improve significantly with regular time in a snow dome or dry slope, especially focused time with an instructor/coach. They may never become "great" in your eyes, but that probably doesn't matter to most people. What probably matters to the OP is that he may reach a level that he could never achieve from the 1 or 2 isolated snow weeks per year he gets at the moment. I don't see why we need to be debating the definition of a "great" skier when the OP made it pretty clear in his opening post what he was intending to achieve. There was nothing about becoming a world class athlete, which is obviously not going to happen from skiing in the fridge once a week.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
