 Poster: A snowHead
|
| Snowsartre wrote: |
| Health and safety obsessed Britain much maligned, often quite rightly, but French school teachers have very different duty of care and approach to the British. |
Please, please, can we not go down this route until the facts are known?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
@rob@rar, . . .couldn't think of a suitable comment - the pic says it all - horrific.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
I think adults should be free to make their own decisions about the risks they take. When you are leading a group of children that changes the game.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
Technically what's the difference between skiing a closed piste and skiing off piste? Particularly if you come onto to the closed piste at a point other than the start of it, so might legitimately not know that that particular piste is closed? I appreciate that skiing off piste in a high ava risk area / time period is by definition ill advised, but doesn't just closing a piste turn it into off piste?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
@miranda, My observation was a general one and formed at first-hand and in no way confined to the mountains. French teachers do have a different attitude to their duty of care, culturally as well as legally.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| miranda wrote: |
| JamesHJ wrote: |
Around here teachers do the FFS formation (which I believe is a one week course for the first level). This allows them to lead a class of children, but is totally limited to on-piste activities. |
Where is "around here" James? |
Grenoble area. Many employers have a comité d'entreprise which offers very subsidised skiing for kids. There are organised trips on a Wed afternoon and maybe Sat also. Several of my colleagues have done the FFS course(s) and help out with the supervision. To be honest, I don't know if there is e.g. ESF providing some overall organisation- I would have to ask our son for more details.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@Snowsartre, sure, I'm British, I live in France, I'm not unaware of the different attitudes between France and the UK, but can we just leave the cultural finger-pointing until the facts are known? I was driving a long overnight journey from Scotland to SE England on the 13th of November and was reliant on the UK radio news, which was full of "experts" on how bad the French intelligence service were and how they basically caused the death of the innocent victims… the tragic death toll wasn't even known, nor were the facts clear… I found it incredibly distasteful when the families still didn't know the outcome.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| miranda wrote: |
| JamesHJ wrote: |
Around here teachers do the FFS formation (which I believe is a one week course for the first level). This allows them to lead a class of children, but is totally limited to on-piste activities. |
Where is "around here" James? |
For France:
any school teacher can lead but not instruct children on piste by virtue of his teaching qualification.
A PE teacher can both lead and teach children from his school but it is advised to use a professional instructor for teaching
Someone exterior to the school needs a 1 day course to lead school children with no criminal record check
The avalanche risk was 3/5 today in les Deux Alpes (I checked the bulletin last night)
There have been a number of accidents involving school groups over the years. Nothing much has changed so far. For example les Orres with 9 dead from memory (sons and daughters of senior establishment figures), last year a pupil from school near Grenoble on a ski tour with a school group who didn't have a beacon. In March 2009 a group of school kids touring in the Maurienne. Just a few from memory. Note, off piste alpine skiing without a guide or ski instructor is strictly forbidden but is allowed for ski de fond groups (I guess the assumption is that the terrain isn't dangerous).
We should wait for the investigation before drawing any hasty conclusions.
Last edited by After all it is free  on Wed 13-01-16 23:12; edited 2 times in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
@miranda, I don't necessarily disagree with you. I have every confidence that there was no mens rea on the part of the responsible adults.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I was just thinking that Davidof will probably be along soon (and will know more about leading kids in the mountains). The FFS MF1/MF2 qualifications are interesting- probably something for a different thread though.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
| JamesHJ wrote: |
| Several of my colleagues have done the FFS course(s) and help out with the supervision. To be honest, I don't know if there is e.g. ESF providing some overall organisation- I would have to ask our son for more details. |
Snowsport Scotland run something similar called Alpine Ski Leader. It appears to confer similar rights.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
| JamesHJ wrote: |
| I was just thinking that Davidof will probably be along soon (and will know more about leading kids in the mountains). The FFS MF1/MF2 qualifications are interesting- probably something for a different thread though. |
They are very good and really anyone taking school groups should have them and I know some teachers who do (as you seem to). There are also school teachers who are guides and fully qualified ski instructors who do officially take off piste groups.
I'm an agreed third party with the French Education Ministry for taking school groups; which is shocking really; not that I'm a bad skier but I think the process is a bit lightweight. However it is tough enough finding anyone at all to take school groups.
I would just say that few school directors would let incompetent staff take groups skiing and a lot of schools have stopped alpine skiing altogether due to the many risks - getting onto lifts being the first.
Regarding the les Deux Alpes group, this was no Wednesday afternoon jaunt but a group in the resort for the week. Quite unusual as the school isn't a specialized sports Lycee.
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Wed 13-01-16 23:53; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Very sad news. Thoughts are with the families. Too early to pass judgement until all the facts come out.
We are due to go to L2A end of Feb for our first ski trip. Will this effect the pistes etc? And obviously, we want to be safe!
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
Sad news thoughts with family and friends. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
| larkim wrote: |
| Technically what's the difference between skiing a closed piste and skiing off piste? |
"Technically" it's probably the same.
But in practice, I suspect the risk is much higher on a closed piste. After all, if it's safe to open, it would have been open!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
In terms of insurance my understanding is that on a closed piste you might be deemed to be skiing "against local advice". Which on many policies would mean you're not covered.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
It sounds like the rescue effort could not have been any better, and likely some were spared through their efforts.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| abc wrote: |
| larkim wrote: |
| Technically what's the difference between skiing a closed piste and skiing off piste? |
"Technically" it's probably the same.
But in practice, I suspect the risk is much higher on a closed piste. After all, if it's safe to open, it would have been open! |
Yeah. It would be the equivalent of skiing off piste in an area known to be at risk of avalanche at that time. In fact it's a bit worse than that, as there is a body of specialist opinion with very intimate knowledge of the particular area who have deemed it unsafe to open. This obviously assumes we are aware it has been closed due to avalanche risk and not some other reason. Probably dangerous to assume otherwise. Also sets a bad example and could endanger others as pointed out elsewhere.
But as tempting as it is to presume they were led down this we don't know what actually happened.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
School trips have very tight guidance. We used to lead children all of the mountain - on piste but that changeed so that you needed a week long course and then be able to lead children on blue slopes only. This is in the sate sector. The private sector used to have a lot more freedom but I'm not sure now. Thigns changed when a group of British children went toboganning and went over a cliff to their deaths and legislation was tightened further after teh kayacking disaster off the south west coast.
I'm sure ski school are far more tightly governed these days. Some didn't understand duty of care years ago. They often left children on the mountain.
Some reports are saying that the avalanche was caused by skiers above. IF this is case it hopefully will bing about a cultural change to skiing off piste above others.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
What's happened today will have no effect on the pistes for your holiday in 6 weeks time I am sure.@Fridge03,
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
Posted this separately last night, thought worth copying here.
Just got back after a long day and talking to several people involved in the search, a minute or too earlier and I would have done too.
Lots of people up late for commemorative run later. Skiing back to Bellecombe chair near 4 and I could see something was going on below to the left, lots stopped looking. But I got down to lift and watching from there with helis about it was clear it was serious. 2 friends I was skiing with stopped higher and actually helped probing for 90 minutes.
Huge slide the entire length of the Bellecombe black piste, what was the Grand Couloir. Below it is essentially a terrain trap where the search was taking place. What appears to have happened is that skiers off piste above triggered a huge slide onto the CLOSED piste below taking everyone down. Avi level was 3, I skied that same run several times yesterday at a similar time with a guide when it was 4.
Loads up the mountain for torchlight run down but it was officially cancelled but had to get everyone down still. I got down near 7 in the dark.
Spoke to friends who got involved who spoke of bodies being buried 10ft. ESF friend I met later I spoke to was visibly very shaken, he'd been searching, and though he only spoke in French I got the giste if it. As I left the bar near 11 a pisteur I know came in straight off the mountain, he looked physically and mentally drained. I bought him a beer and left him to it.
A dreadful day for L2A which has a fantastic avi safety record IMO.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
There was a BBC reporter on one of the lifts close to the incident. I suspect this is the reason for the quicker (and more in depth than normal) coverage in the UK
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
I just had a long talk with my mate who was involved in the search. As a bystander he just skied down and offered help which was accepted. He said that the search was extremely well organised by the pisteurs organising probing lines, initially with normal probes and in the deeper debris with longer solid kevlar poles. Victims were found using these but were buried deeply and had been there for a long time once found. After 90 minutes he was exhausted and it was clear no one would be found alive. Heat seeking equipment and dogs were also deployed.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| ukredsox wrote: |
| There was a BBC reporter on one of the lifts close to the incident. I suspect this is the reason for the quicker (and more in depth than normal) coverage in the UK |
The BBC "reporters" were an engineer and a producer which is why their reporting was less than stellar. The producer woman I caught a clip of wasn't particularly au fait with rescue equipment or concepts. Not her fault but they could have asked numerous people on this site who weren't even in L2A and got a more expert explanation of what was going on.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
| Quote: |
If one particular chair had been open today, and not closed due to technical issues, there would have been powder hounds a plenty, many with no idea or gear, or all the gear and no idea.
I wouldn't be surprised if there are immediate decisions with a view to closing lifts that enable people to venture into dangerous terrain, but where do you draw the line?
|
Not sure where you are referring to but if lifts access dangerous areas, even if that terrain is off piste or closed pistes, then some lift companies are already very wary of opening the lift if the avalanche risk is high. It might well have been closed for technical reasons, but lift companies do try and manage the "powder fever" in some areas. It's annoying for those who know what they are doing (or like to think they do), but I have no doubt many disasters are prevented by this tactic.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
@Claude B, thanks of your comments for L2A. I'm feeling very emotional about this. My two kids are very capable of skiing unpisted black runs in powder. When I'm skiing with them I have to make decisions around risks - it's different from when I'm with mates (and I'm cautious then).
Interested in this comment
"Avi level was 3, I skied that same run several times yesterday at a similar time with a guide when it was 4. "
Suggests that an expert could reasonably conclude that skiing that closed piste was an acceptable in the conditions. At least with consenting adults who were able to make their own choices.
However, given what happened, it does feel like your guide made a poor decision (believe me I know it is a probabilistic game and highly respected guides don't always get it right).
But skiing with other people's children when you are in loco parentis? It's hard to think how anyone could think it was acceptable to ski that. The most charitable explanation I can think of is that the teacher was lost.
The fact that the slide was triggered by other skiers off piste is irrelevant - that risk is one of the factors that will have led to the closure.
Thoughts to everyone involved including the teacher involved, who I'm sure was driven only by the desire to share his love of skiing with the children and now has to live with the most dreadful consequences.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
@jedster, I suspect that the previous day if other skiers had taken a similar line above us we could have been in trouble, we did all have avi gear though. Weather conditions were very different though, Tuesday was very poor visibility and snowing so probably far less likely. Yesterday's vis was very good so people were more adventurous. Our guide had said that the off piste above was far too dangerous to ski. I didn't consider it trusting in the guides judgement.
You cannot get lost and get onto that run. There is a big piste closed net across the top which you have to go round. A lot of people have been skiing it. I don't think it has actually been officially open at all yet this winter.
I'm similarly emotional and tbh the whole resort is in mourning.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
Awful news. My thoughts are with all those affected.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
On the difference between "off piste" and "closed piste", surely if you're on a closed piste you're there ignoring the resort recommendation therefore your insurance would be void as it generally has something in the small print. Same as if you go off piste when the avi level is a 4 you're doing the same.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
It sounds like it released from the side wall to skiiers left as you descend (it crossed the piste). There was a skiier not connected to the group found in the debris so seems at least plausible that it was released by a skier/skiiers trying to access untouched snow off the side of the piste (which sounds like it was already getting tracked). Tragic whatever the circumstances.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
Hopefully the widespread coverage this tragedy will get will encourage people to be a bit smarter this winter. In particular with closed pistes people need to understand they are closed for a reason and the fact that they may have been open previously in the day or week or that lots of people have skied them doesn't make them safe. I've seen Brits blow by a closed sign saying "It was fine when we skied it this morning" totally oblivious to the rising temperatures and obvious evidence of wet slabs triggering above the piste. Obviously we'll see what the official report says but I can imagine the sunny day factor may have had a non negligible effect on an avalanche triggering late in the pm. I think the fact that there may have been people above the closed piste who triggered is pretty irrelevant to the wisdom of skiing the piste - you should expect that there will be dumbasses out there who will place you in danger if lack of trigger is all you are relying on.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
Completely agree Dave.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@Dave of the Marmottes, while true, I have known of pistes (that I've skied) that were closed only to preserve the snow for the following school holidays. I am afraid that my attitude was purely selfish and feck the Parisiens
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Snowsartre wrote: |
| I think adults should be free to make their own decisions about the risks they take. When you are leading a group of children that changes the game. |
To a degree, but not when those actions endanger the lives of others.
Should I be allowed to risk driving home after a bottle of wine???
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| jedster wrote: |
@Claude B, thanks of your comments for L2A. I'm feeling very emotional about this. My two kids are very capable of skiing unpisted black runs in powder. When I'm skiing with them I have to make decisions around risks - it's different from when I'm with mates (and I'm cautious then).
Interested in this comment
"Avi level was 3, I skied that same run several times yesterday at a similar time with a guide when it was 4. "
Suggests that an expert could reasonably conclude that skiing that closed piste was an acceptable in the conditions. At least with consenting adults who were able to make their own choices.
However, given what happened, it does feel like your guide made a poor decision (believe me I know it is a probabilistic game and highly respected guides don't always get it right).
But skiing with other people's children when you are in loco parentis? It's hard to think how anyone could think it was acceptable to ski that. The most charitable explanation I can think of is that the teacher was lost.
The fact that the slide was triggered by other skiers off piste is irrelevant - that risk is one of the factors that will have led to the closure.
Thoughts to everyone involved including the teacher involved, who I'm sure was driven only by the desire to share his love of skiing with the children and now has to live with the most dreadful consequences. |
Agree with all this, but do note that the piste, as I understand it per the reporting, had not opened yet for the season, i.e., it wasn't necessarily closed due to avalanche risk it just hadn't gotten enough snow to open yet. It may of course have been closed yesterday because of the avalanche risk. Also, we don't know if the teacher led them down, or if one or more of them could have started down it and he left with little choice.
I also agree that the hope is the lesson will make all of us more cautious. A couple of years ago I skipped into closed pistes on successive holidays when I was a lot more naive. I wouldn't think about doing it for a second now. Fundamentally though the mountains are a potentially dangerous environment and while we think we can think our way out of danger or think we can control the danger that may be a little naive in itself.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Big debate on French TV atm as to whether closed signage was good enough. Netting/sign across whole piste entrance, could easily go around the sign though as we did Tuesday. Difficult to miss that it was closed imo. Resort getting defensive apparently and talking about closure of some pistes and/or lifts.
It would be difficult to mistakenly go down imo. However the top half that you can see is pretty innocuous only blue gradient really. The 2nd half is a steep couloir that isn't in sight from the top and is where the avalanche occurred.
Minute silence in main square at 5.30, I'm going along to show my respects.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
