BASI sued for £500 000

A snowHead

I'm sure you are right that the French don't care. They are making no friends amongst most BASI members though who are just sick of them.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

I'm sure you are right that the French don't care. They are making no friends amongst most BASI members though who are just sick of them.

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TTT, you can screen grab on smartphones too. On iphones you hold the close button and double tap the home button. This save a screen grab to the camera roll.

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@TTT, most BASI members just don't care about SB or indeed anything about BASI if election turnout is anything to go by?
I would imagine most members have never heard of SB let alone been sickened by him.

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I'd imagine that most basi members just want to have their qualifications recognized, be able to work and have some professional liability insurance that's fit for purpose. Mr TTT isn't helping with the first two of those, and based in his comments I'm surprised that members are not asking for their money back wink

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@Dunk, indeed I've been known to ski and accept a beer from SB associates - mind you I'm generally not fussy who accept a beer from. It's only a certain element and certain comments that I have a problem with. Tux, Tux, Hintertux - never heard of the place.

@TTT, I have even had a beer with a BASI board member or two.
I still think most members ambivalent to SB and it is only those who will lose if non ISTD's can teach in France are "sickened"
I also acknowledge there are some members who have history with SB who also may be "sickened"
As we have discussed before, why could this sorry saga not have been dealt with more amicably.

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So TTT who's the "honourable exception?" in Simon Butlers gang of devils?

You know it makes sense.

@davidof, pretty typical story isn't it? Not exclusive to France but certainly endemic there... If you're with them or vice versa, lovely, if you're not, well, that'll be (at least) expensive, probably painful and definitely unpleasant (in our experience).

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

@rungsp, see what I mean about cognitive biases. You are correct I took the wrong figure - I understand it is election time in UK so I'm sure that there is a lot of dodgy stats around. But point stands though that there is no evidence that there is a significant number of people looking for more recognition for lower level instructors as the only person who makes money out of that is SB.

I've never criticised the top level of BASI instructors. I use both top BASI and foreign instructors and found them very comparable. Good skiing and instructing is very similar. I'm only saying that some people seem to think that the ET is an amazing high pro skier standard. It is not. It is the entry level for instructing in Italy I understand. There is a big difference between some who has a few weeks of training and does amateur instruction and someone who is a trained professional or training to be a professional. The professional and ex racers are a lot better value in my experience as they have trained to a high standard, know a lot about skiing and have a great eye.

I'm not bothered about the ski stuff. I could happily give up skiing tomorrow. The UKIP stuff does impact me though. SB and some of his associates would have the UK leave Europe just because it is not working for them despite the fact that is works for millions of others including hundreds of professional qualified UK ski instructors as intended. There is a constant stream from SB associates on FB. I don't like half truths. I don't like xenophobia, I don't like abuse and I don't like bullies.
@Gerry, I have learnt how to do a screen grab though.

There are a few thousand on the public FB page. There are just a few SB associates who post constantly so I think there is an awareness but little interest and people are just fed up with it as they are many times worse than me.

There is very little interest in instructing in France from lower level membership and I don't believe it would open the market up. There is very little interest in lessons from holiday skiers once they can get around. Friends are not interested in free or cheap lessons on holiday and I also refuse free/cheap lessons as most people once they get around just want to ski. @skison, we clearly do move in different circles as all the numerous instructors I ski with are not interested in the SB cause and are just fed up with it. I think the lack of engagement on FB and in the elections is objective evidence that this is not a major issue that most members support. SB is a niche situation.

I would rather people if they are interested look at FB and make their own mind up who are decent people and who are not. Just as I would advise people to read what the EU rules actually say themselves before giving an opinion on SBs legal position.

A snowHead

You don't like half truths....what like when one day you claim your in basi and the next you're not. TTT the self confessed liar..or the xenephobia you dislike so much yet you spouted so much crap about how useless brits are at teaching. ..
You're just as bad as those you despise

A liar and a raging hypocrite Very Happy

A snowHead

@geeo, I've never claimed I'm not a member of BASI and I've never said Brits are useless at teaching - I also use brit teachers. I did say I'm just a punter skier. I did not hear my fully qualified brit instructor disagree Sad

. I don't lie and I'm not a hypocrite. I can be accused of many other things though I'm sure Happy

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

@TTT, do you not post on the FB page?
It would be good if you could counter some of the arguments.
You seem to have a greater understanding about what lower level BASI membership want regarding employment than BASI itself.
Very Happy

I notice that you suggest most holiday skiers do not want lessons, is this because most ski schools do not tailor for their needs?
As you are I presume a travelled and observant person I'm sure you have noticed along with me that the standard of recreational skiing varies in different nations. Do you think their is any correlation between accessibility of lessons and standard of recreational skiing or is it just some nations are naturally better skiers? Toofy Grin

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@Dunk, im bad enough on here. I don't post on FB as all the people I ski with agree best not to get involved. We have different views as well. My views on the lower levels come from the numerous lower levels that I ski with. They can't make enough money from instructing or would rather be skiing. They may not be representative but I only see a few rebels who are actively getting excited about working in France.

As my friends and I refuse free lessons it is simply that people just want to ski in my experience. I really don't know why the majority are happy being out of balance most of the time as it does not work for me but they are so who cares.

I'm genuinely just curious on your views on the standard of skiing between different alpine nations as I really don't have a view. I can only say that the standard tends to be higher pre and post main season and in more niche resorts as higher proportion of regular skiers.

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@TTT, I would never refuse a free lesson if they were available. OK maybe I would if the instructor was not good enough.

Yes, pre and post season when major tour companies are not sending skiers the standards are much higher. I was suggesting that there may be a correlation between general skiing ability and the ease of having ski tuition. I may be generalising as I have quite possibly been visiting ski areas that attract better or not so skiers, but I do think Canada has better standard of recreational skiers than France for example.

Maybe the lower levels would find some instructing useful to offset the costs of skiing and developing along the BASI pathway. The more opportunities the have to do so would mitigate some of the debt they would end up with or not rely on bank of Mum and Dad.

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TTT let me correct you on a couple of historical points. Most pre 2001 BASI 1 (L4 ISTD)'s did not do the CAPA. Most people with a L4 have not done the ET. Every L4 who had done the newly introduced off piste course was given a L4 and full French equivalence. Why? because others had pushed the french by working and challenging them in court into make a compromise. Some hadn't done the off piste course however before this single letter was sent out everyone was the same. There are about 20-30 people who fell through the cracks, bit by bit they have done the EMS as it is now and have been given ISTD The first compromise was to give up 200 tickets for France to BASI's top members.

This was a bribe and BASI took it. Dave Renouf was Chairman at this time, he was also a member of ESF Meribel, he negotiated this deal. The second part of the compromise was that L3 (old BASI 2) would be given the right to work as stagieres with no time limit and thrown an ISIA sticker as a compromise, BASI even took to calling it's middle level the "ISIA", like it meant something.

Many BASI 2 (newly minted L3 ISIA) took this option until it was rescinded by the French, breaking the agreement. What did BASI have to do to meet it's end of this dodgy bargain. It had to persuade everyone that this was a legal and EU backed decision that from then on everyone had to do the new "Eurotest" (ET) the ET came about to solve the BASI question for France, it was not something that we joined, It was created just for us, the Belgium's and Spaniards also took similar bribes.

This 2001 ET deal was preceded by another deal for about 12 trainers some years before that, and has been superseded by a additional deal for snowboarders in about 2006. In this deal called the Satolas Agreement 33 snowboarder L2's (old money), then called ISIA's or L3's were given by BASI ISTD ski qualifications which were then recognised by the French as having full french equivalence. In exchange for this BASI agreed to amongst other things, to not support any member in any european court action and to agree that snowboarding going forwards was essentially an add-on to skiing.

Simon is a rebel, the debate about his conviction, appeal, expulsion, re-entry to BASI, BASI's appeal, his appeal, the high court in Scotland etc etc etc would have been entirely different if one staff member in the BASI office had not deliberately singled him out to not receive his MOU just before the French police targeted him for arrest and prosecution.

Many people would not have much sympathy for him had that not happened. This staff member, in the BASI office has handed Simon the support of many balanced and reasonable people.

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@lonepinehill3, very interesting. So, you are arguing that BASI did some very murky deals which left some fortunate members of the BASI "great and good" on the right side of the French arrangements but meant that BASI undertook, as their side of the bargain, not to challenge those arrangements, thus ensuring that others were not able to get the same deal subsequently.

Are you now contending that if SB had not been vindictively and deliberately excluded he would now be in the lifeboat with the great and the good, and perfectly happy with his lot? Or that the whole murky deal should be unravelled and replaced with something fairer to all?

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@Dunk, I really not in a position to compare. I think instruction is just one factor, the other 2 being at what age you started and how often you ski. To be a decent skier I think you need top quality instruction as well ideally starting young and a lot of time on the hill. I can only tick one box I'm afraid.

@lonepinehill3, im aware of the history thanks although I would say that is a very good summary. Indeed the older guys did not do the capa but certain key individuals in the dispute did. I think they should have all done the capa or ET and EMS. I would not use the word bribe as I'm not aware any cash was exchanged and I would not suggest that without knowing the facts. I agree a deal was done. I do deals every day. That is business and life.

The MOU is just a process faciltator and is not the deciding factor for a the carte pro as you can get one with out so it is ultimately a french decision to convict SB and not caused by BASI.

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@pam w, the stories I've heard seem like very murky deals to me.

@TTT, no, the Eurotest would not be terribly difficult I imagine if you've grown up in the Alps, been racing for your local club since you started skiing age 3 and spent most winter weekends and Wednesday afternoons racing and training. Nope, not that hard at all.

Somewhat different if you're just an aspirant Brit, I would expect. I know some very good British skiers who are put off the whole formal instruction thing given the costs in time, money and effort that the ET would involve. Especially once over a certain age wink

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@pam w, I still think it is advisable not to use the word bribe. It was a deal. Like any deal there are winners and losers. I would not say there was anything murky about it. There is just one person who has a problem - SB, because he decided not to do the capa, ET or sort out his grandfather rights. SB was convicted for having none of these not because he did not have the MOU which he was not entitled to in any case because it did not have the above.

SB was further convicted for employing under qualified staff and breaking employment law I understand. SB was expelled from BASI for employing under qualified staff which are not covered by EU rules. The EU has confirmed that the French are entitled to apply their regulations.

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@TTT, Have you read any of the facts pertaining to last weeks court decision? French following their own rules would be a good start.

I find it strange that BASI took it upon themselves to expel SB, they are a qualifications body, not an arm of the French judiciary?

SB and MOU, more to come on that I'm afraid. Sad

Oh what a mess we have all got into.

You know it makes sense.

@under a new name, I know when you are given a little cherub on the lift and they tell you it is their PE lesson you know you can never compare. There are a lot of things you can't do because of birth, location, circumstances, experience, age and qualifications and people don't get so wound up. Just that ski instructor sounds more like the dream. Reality, cold, dark, poor pay, and having to try to keep customers happy who can't ski so you don't get to ski yourself. I don't think the youngsters get wound up about this anyway as they can do it anyway if they want Just a few old timers who can't accept they are getting old.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

@rjs, not necessarily, although good point.

Those brits are somewhat unusual though, I'd suggest?

A snowHead

@Dunk, I would have just left the french and EU to it but if you don't expel someone for being convicted relating to ski offences what do you expel them for.

MOU wink

A snowHead

@TTT, ski offences or employment offences? Pedantic I know but herein lies problems.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

I think BASI chose their reason for expulsion wisely given what we both seem to know.

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@TTT,

Another grey area, it is what we don't know that will make an interesting day in court.

I worry for BASI and I worry for Simon.

Sad

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@lonepinehill3, that is a version of events. There are others. He has been convicted on numerous occasions and was not complying with basi guidance. He was convicted and therefore guilty until found otherwise. He has also admitted on FB that his staff were working outside their remit. He gave BASI little choice.

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@shep, problem is when the views of the majority happen to be the law and you agree to be part of an organisation with rules. It is entirely legitimate to lobby for changes in the law and rules but if you break them then you have to accept the consequences.

Help!!

BASI sued for £500 000

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