 Poster: A snowHead
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| Richard_Sideways wrote: |
Frankly, it is a good job you prefer to ski alone, as I'd be amazed that you would be able to find anyone as reckless as yourself to ski with you. |
I couldn't agree more even if Ortovox paid me to. Goldsmith is a reckless dinosaur. He was equipment editor of Ski Survey when transceivers came out but never wrote a single word about them and has still never even held one in his hands.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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This related thread is also worth looking at.
http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=17700
| davidof wrote: |
| flicksta wrote: |
| Do we also have data on the number of people caught in avalanches then and now? Horse-drawn ambulances saved hundreds of lives as well. |
No we don't, because there are a lot of people who are saved from avalanches where that information is not reported to the competent authorities.
However lets take a look at France. In 2004-5 there were 20 avalanches involving fatalities, 25 deaths and 71 accidents that either involved or were reported to the rescue services. Of these all fatal avalanches are known and probably a large % of serious accidents as these would have involved the rescue services who record the cause of the accident. It is estimated that the total number of avalanches involving people is 4 times the figure known to rescue services and some of these are quite large events where people were rescued without major injury.
If we concentrate on the 43 victims who were completely buried we have six who were found by dogs (5 dead, 1 alive), 3 who were found by an organised probe search (all dead), 1 who was found by her brother probing where he thought she was buried (alive) 22 found by avalanche beacon (12 dead, 10 alive) and 8 found through surface indication (7 alive, 1 dead). 2004-5 was a fairly typical year.
From this we can see that if you wait for the interventation of organised rescue services you will most likely be dead. Around 80% of victims survive the initial avalanche, less than a third will still be alive 45 minutes later. I recently spoke to the senior pilot for the Civil Security who said that from someone making the call they could be airborne in around 10-15 minutes with perhaps 20-30 minutes flying time to the avalanche scene, that is with the 220 kph/h EC145 helicopter. That is assuming they know exactly where you are and that weather conditions are favourable.
The avalanche beacon figures don't look good, over 50% of victims wearing beacons are killed by the avalanche. A number of factors can explain this figure:-
1. Some beacon wearers are taking on more risk than non-wearers so are more frequently caught in slides and the slides are more serious.
2. Some beacon wearers are too slow at searching due to lack of familiarity with their equipment and lack of practise in simulated rescues.
Point 2 can be addressed with more training in avalanche rescue and to some extent by more intuitive beacons. However remember that the easiest beacon in the world will not help you a great deal if you don't have any practise at organising a rescue operation and administering first aid etc. A concrete example, in one rescue scenario we practised the two rescuers were able to locate a beacon after 5 minutes traversing a slope but had left their probes and shovels in their rucksacks at the top of the "slide". This required a 10 minute round trip.
Conventional wisdom would suggest that greater education would address point 1. However studies, such as McCammon, suggest that skiers with better route planning skills use that knowledge to take on even riskier routes. Risk reduction methods might be a solution to that tendency.
The surface indication figure, 7 live recoveries from 8, would suggest that avalanche cords, or the avalanche ball, have a role to play. Surface indications include skis and poles visible on the surface or a glove poking through the snow. This is not a fair comparison with the beacon fatalities. In these cases the victim is not deeply buried, the snow, although deeply packed, will have more air in it and will not be crushing the chest of the victim restricting breathing. The victim, in resting near the surface, probably also suffered less trauma in the slide. The victim will also remained buried for less time reducing the risk of suffocation and hypothermia.
In conclusion. In order to have a better than 50% chance of being rescued alive when buried by an avalanche it is essential to be skiing with others and for everyone to be equipped with search and rescue gear and be competetent in its use and in giving first aid. A surface indication, including a device such as the avalanche cord, remains the easiest and quickest way of locating a victim. Staying on the surface of a slide is important to survival chances and the ABS Airbag system has an role to play here.
Regarding the specifics of avalanche cords, it is my opinion they are not practical and were used for the want of anything better. Trailing 20-30 meters of cord or ribbon will interfere with skiing and other other skiers and could be dangerous under certain conditions. The cord can also get buried either during the slide or if there is a secondary slide or sluffing. If it is buried even 1 cm you won't rescue your buddy. Without any compartive figures for their effectiveness such as I have outlined above I believe that an avalanche beacon remains the most practical and reliable method of locating a completely buried avalanche victim.
This is a further analysis of the 2004-5 avalanche deaths for France publised in the fall edition of The Avalanche Review. |
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Comedy Goldsmith wrote: |
| Richard_Sideways wrote: |
| reckless |
Another pejorative word. That's OK, but of course many lay people would regard the mere act of skiing off-piste as akin to Russian roulette.
So, at best, we're dealing with various shades of recklessness. I'd simply argue that 'the industry' - as with helmets - is really good at whipping people up into a frenzy about the potential of escaping death/crippling by avalanche.
I simply prefer to ski without a sackful of clobber on my back. OK ... "reckless". |
Not good enough and you'd better stay out of the Italian Alps where you could be fined for skiing the off-piste without the correct gear.
We are all stakeholders out in the off-piste, so if I'm first on the scene I will do my best for those involved, which requires I carry a pack with equipment in it.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
many lay people would regard the mere act of skiing off-piste as akin to Russian roulette.
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Quite, but when multiple people from within the scene levy that charge at your door, at which point should you start to take notice?
Pejorative, perhaps, but also apt.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| PJSki wrote: |
| Richard_Sideways wrote: |
Frankly, it is a good job you prefer to ski alone, as I'd be amazed that you would be able to find anyone as reckless as yourself to ski with you. |
I couldn't agree more even if Ortovox paid me to. Goldsmith is a reckless dinosaur. He was equipment editor of Ski Survey when transceivers came out but never wrote a single word about them and has still never even held one in his hands. |
That is, of course, a big fat lie ... trotted out by Gerry Aitken (PJSki, Tim Brown etc.), director, Ski Club of Great Britain. [Ski Survey was the Club's magazine, which achieved sales of up to 12,000 on the newsstands in the early 1990s, partly due to the quality of its equipment/tech/innovations content]
I never censored information about transceivers. On the contrary, readers were regularly updated with information about their development.
Go visit the Club library, Gerry. It's all on the printed page.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
I admire anyone who carries a shovel, is willing to dig out a fellow skier (or perhaps a stranger), perhaps as a reciprocal gesture to expecting to be dug out themselves.
I firmly believe that it's any skier's right to opt out of that understanding, if not skiing in a group that imposes it. It will do nothing for this sport to impose some kind of safety doctrine on independently-minded people. They'll reject it anyway.
David Goldsmith 21st Feb 2007 |
People, en mass, have not rejected this principle at all. You were completely wrong in 07 and still are, so just admit it and move on.
But, as you wish to opt out, do let us know where you plan to ski.
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| PJSki wrote: |
| ... you'd better stay out of the Italian Alps where you could be fined for skiing the off-piste without the correct gear ... |
Another Gerry Aitken bombshell (whoopee cushion). Please link us to the Italian legislation concerned. We can then determine if its "the Italian Alps", "part of the Italian Alps", if it's ever been enforced etc. etc. In the meantime ... are we talking about this information from 2009, or has there been further law on this?
http://www.onthesnow.com/news/a/6430/italy-passes-avalanche-law-for-off-piste-skiers--heavy-fines
Anyone had a €250 fine yet? I believe it's a false threat and would continue to ski off-piste without the kit referred to, in that part of Italy.
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| Comedy Goldsmith wrote: |
| PJSki wrote: |
| Richard_Sideways wrote: |
Frankly, it is a good job you prefer to ski alone, as I'd be amazed that you would be able to find anyone as reckless as yourself to ski with you. |
I couldn't agree more even if Ortovox paid me to. Goldsmith is a reckless dinosaur. He was equipment editor of Ski Survey when transceivers came out but never wrote a single word about them and has still never even held one in his hands. |
That is, of course, a big fat lie ... trotted out by Gerry Aitken (PJSki, Tim Brown etc.), director, Ski Club of Great Britain. [Ski Survey was the Club's magazine, which achieved sales of up to 12,000 on the newsstands in the early 1990s, partly due to the quality of its equipment/tech/innovations content]
I never censored information about transceivers. On the contrary, readers were regularly updated with information about their development.
Go visit the Club library, Gerry. It's all on the printed page. |
Nor did you ever write an article about them during your term as equipment bod with Ski Survey. How could you, when you have never, to this day, even held one in your hands. Recently you dismissed them merely as 'interesting devices'. As always, your arrogance and ignorance remain on par with each other.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Gerry Aitken, trotting out the same lie twice (as so often to date) doesn't make a truth. I wrote regularly about transceivers, Recco, airbags and all other aspects of safety equipment. Obviously I've held transceivers in my hands.
How the fuck would you know what I've held in my hands? I had a bottle of washing-up liquid in my hands last night - is that something I should disclose, do you deny it?
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Recently you said you'd never even held one. No way could you have written anything useful about them without hands-on experience. So what did you do, just cut and & paste other people's work as usual? Get your scanner out and prove you wrote about transceivers while you were equipment editor.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| PJSki wrote: |
| Recently you said you'd never even held one. |
No I didn't. That's just another of your lies, Gerry, which is why you can't quote the source. It doesn't exist.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Time passes with Comedy Goldsmith desperately flicks through his collection of Ski Survey copies.
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| Comedy Goldsmith wrote: |
| PJSki wrote: |
| Recently you said you'd never even held one. |
No I didn't. That's just another of your lies, Gerry, which is why you can't quote the source. It doesn't exist. |
No, you did write that and yes, I can't find it. By now you've probably edited it.
Last edited by So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much  on Fri 20-12-13 12:46; edited 1 time in total
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You know it makes sense.
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More time passes while Comedy Goldsmith desperately flicks through his collection of Ski Survey copies.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Your pants are on fire, Gerry. Put them out, go down to the library, go through Ski Survey 1983 to 1995 and find all the stuff about transceivers, avalanches, and safety equipment. I wrote loads of stuff on this. I was equipment editor, for heaven's sake!
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Poster: A snowHead
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Even more time passes while Comedy Goldsmith desperately flicks through his collection of Ski Survey copies.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Gerry Aitken, no ... time passes while you fail to correct the lies. I ain't flicking through anything to correct your lies. Did you lie to the board of the Ski Club of Great Britain to secure my expulsion as a member of the organisation? You lied in 2004 about my having misappropriated SCGB property, which helped get the Club into all sorts of trouble.
You've printed numerous electoral promises in SCGB annual reports about what you'll do to secure membership expansion and new membership services for the SCGB, but seem to have failed to deliver on them. How about "flicking through" those, and updating us on what's been spent and what's been delivered?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Blowing smoke again? You've never held a transceiver let alone used one or written anything remotely informative such as a detailed review. Pasting other people's work and then adding a few lines of commentary isn't proper journalism. But I'm happy to be proved wrong by you scanning in something and posting it here.
Now, get on with it. Oh, you can't, because there's nothing to scan and post in the first place.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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hmmm where's the popcorn smiley gone?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Gerry Aitken, obviously I can prove it, but I'm not going to dance about to comply with your playground-mentality antics.
Go and get on with what you were elected to do - sort out the Ski Club of Great Britain. You stand up for an organisation - and sit on its board of directors (Council) - that encourages 'Leaders' to lead people off-piste, with a backpack of clobber (but no recognised qualification to perform these activities). There have been 3 deaths associated with these off-piste activities, two of which have occurred in Verbier. How many more have to occur before commonsense prevails?
And you pontificate about safety?
Yes, I wrote numerous articles about avalanche science, avalanche safety equipment and so on. You'll have to find them, because you've lied, and lied again. It ain't my duty to cite those sources - it's yours.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Comedy Goldsmith wrote: |
Gerry Aitken, obviously I can prove it, but I'm not going to dance about to comply with your playground-mentality antics.
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You won't put up any articles about transceiver, written by you and published in Ski Survey? Well, you know, it would have been interesting to read such articles, but obviously none exist or ever existed in the first place.
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Gerry Aitiken, why don't you just fuck off out of it? For 10 years now you've used an array of false names on here, preceded by a ridiculous chapter of abuse on the old SCGB forum, to smear people and generally cause trouble. You helped secure the closure of that old forum ... you were spoken to by people more senior that you - at the SCGB - to desist.
But it just goes on and on and on.
Go and read those articles, by all means. They are within a series of 12 years of magazines, comprising approximately 5000 pages of reading material. It's all indexed in each edition of Ski Survey.
Merry Christmas.
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| Comedy Goldsmith wrote: |
Gerry Aitiken, why don't you just fuck off out of it? For 10 years now you've used an array of false names on here, preceded by a ridiculous chapter of abuse on the old SCGB forum, to smear people and generally cause trouble. You helped secure the closure of that old forum ... you were spoken to by people more senior that you - at the SCGB - to desist.
But it just goes on and on and on.
Go and read those articles, by all means. They are within a series of 12 years of magazines, comprising approximately 5000 pages of reading material. It's all indexed in each edition of Ski Survey.
Merry Christmas. |
Get your scanner out and put up some of your articles about transceivers. Also, put away the smoke generator while you're at it.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Fuck off
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| Comedy Goldsmith wrote: |
| Fuck off |
No.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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PJSki, Comedy Goldsmith, FFS. Take it off line - you both look childish. No one cares about your squabbling and no one cares about what might or might not have happened in SCGB years ago. Grow up.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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kat.ryb, no it's high time that time was called on this character. He's a director of a national skiing organisation. There's no way this should be swept under the virtual carpet any longer.
I think they keep him on specifically because he's prepared to go out there and smear the honest voices which question the SCGB and its gravy train of jollies. It's time to call time on the 'PJ Ski Smear Club of Great Britain'.
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kat.ryb,
+1
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You know it makes sense.
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kat.ryb,
+ 23.68294
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Like I said, you're totally unqualified to give an opinion on avalanche rescue equipment. You've never even practised with any of it and you've certainly never written anything knowledgeable on the subject.
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Poster: A snowHead
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kat.ryb, +/- 1
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I'm going to PM the Mods and ask them to sort out this thread - the valid issue of skiing in Japan has been completely lost. This childish arguing can surely be done elsewhere.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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yeah. over on the other forum.
kat.ryb, +42
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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PM to mod has been sent.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Gerry Aitken wrote: |
| Like I said, you're totally unqualified to give an opinion on avalanche rescue equipment. |
I qualified as a BASI 3 in 1975, which (as far as I could interpret) did not qualify me to lead people off-piste. I've never claimed to be "qualified" to give an opinion on avalanche safety equipment.
SCGB 'Leaders' are given a short course on snow safety and are encouraged to take people off-piste. Their ability to ski, or lead, or otherwise operate, is not assessed by any examiners recognised by any other body apart from the Ski Club of Great Britain itself. Three separate deaths, since the mid-1980s have occurred, during those activities. There is every threat (look at what happened in Lech) that disaster could strike at any time, perhaps involving multiple fatalities.
A director of the SCGB - you, Gerry Aitken - comes on here, printing falsehoods (on top of all the others), to try and win some sort of crazy argument about who's qualified to do what.
You couldn't make it up. Except that he has.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Megamum wrote: |
| PM to mod has been sent. |
And hopefully they will ignore it. There's no reason to censor this thread, except possibly for language (worse was used by DH Lawrence in 1927).
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Comedy Goldsmith, I haven't suggested that it's censored, but the thread started off with some perfectly sensible discussion about Japan - an unusual subject for the forum and one that was quite interesting. You and your sparring partner have turned it into a private war ground that reflects badly on SH and on yourselves. I have merely suggested that if you want to fight that the thread is split and your argument can continue somewhere else less visible or at least in a separate location.
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Goldsmith, more smoke from your crack pipe? Like I said your opinions on transceivers use and off-piste responsibility are dangerous.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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every reason - its off topic
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FWIW I am not a fan of censorship - everyone is entitled to their own opinions even if others don't agree with them. Hence suggesting that the thread is split at a suitable location rather than censored.
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FAQ
