 Poster: A snowHead
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Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Fri 11-01-13 23:33; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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"ski social" where the rep just fancied coming along - pull the other one.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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sequoiaboard, in uniform?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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GrahamN, haven't heard that, wouldn't put it past them but doesn't ring true to me, they'd have to exclude Italian Maestros and Austrian Staatlichers as well then. TT is not part of the equivalence. Equivalence is now defined by FEMPS.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Fri 11-01-13 23:16; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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...............
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Fri 11-01-13 23:37; edited 2 times in total
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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...............
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Fri 11-01-13 23:35; edited 1 time in total
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........
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Fri 11-01-13 23:36; edited 1 time in total
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sequoiaboard, muppet  Yeah we had the same thing, same TO and a handy rep might deign to pootle along with us . . . as I said in a very un-uniform neon pink jacket. It was emphasised that the rep, was with us and not the other way round.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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....
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| Masque wrote: |
| sequoiaboard, muppet Yeah we had the same thing, same TO and a handy rep might deign to pootle along with us . . . as I said in a very un-uniform neon pink jacket. It was emphasised that the rep, was with us and not the other way round. |
Sorry if I upset you, but what I said is there for everyone to see on the TO's website. Have now deleted it to keep the peace.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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New development -thanks to Plantski for the news
| Quote: |
Ski hosting suspended in Les Trois Vallees
The French police have stopped a group of UK skiers out with their Crystal Ski hosts in Courchevel. A legal case is taking place against a small British operator that claims ski hosting is illegal as the hosts are not suitably qualified under French law.
In the latest incident two male reps from the resort of Meribel were stopped with their group of holidaymakers while skiing in Courchevel.
The local gendarme questioned them but they were not arrested or taken to the local police station.
The company has now suspended the service to guests and other operators, including Skiworld and Thomson, have followed suit. |
Full story http://www.planetski.eu/news/4580
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
I still find it laughable that this is about people being qualified correctly yet the ESF require no teaching qualification despite that being their primary function. In my eyes it renders the qualification argument redundant
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Where on earth do you get that from? All ESF instructors are either fully qualified "Moniteur National de Ski" (French ski instructors) or trainees in the same system. They do a lot of training and assessment as teachers.
The Eurotest is just one small part of becoming a ski instructor, whether in France or the UK.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Have the ESF won yet?
Have most  signed up for the Farage-Ski-Independence-for-Brits? Oops that might screw up more than just unqualified hustlers on the slopes ...
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Poster: A snowHead
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Agenterre, middle of Feb for rulling
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Masque, can I ask a silly question?.................
WTF would anyone want to be ripped off by protectionist unionists masquerading as ski tutors?
In 20 years time the French may just wonder where it all went wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!
(Expanded version available upon request/donation)
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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skimastaaah, zzzzzzzzz , come on do you call Chartered Accountants in England as
| Quote: |
| protectionist unionists masquerading as |
approved auditors under UK legislation?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Just back from a week’s holiday with Crystal in Serre Chevalier last week. Social skiing was taking place. We joined one of the sessions. The rep was wearing his own jacket; apparently there had been a memo the previous week telling the reps not to do the social skiing in crystal uniform.
It was a bit bizarre as there was a local ESF instructor at the welcome meeting. The instructor talked a bit about what lessons were on offer and later the rep was informing us about the social skiing. On a local level it seems that crystal (or their reps) get on well with the ESF. The crystal rep did emphasize that this was social skiing and explained its limitations
The social skiing was popular with guests and even more so on the ‘away day’ to Montgenevre.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
WTF would anyone want to be ripped off by protectionist unionists masquerading as ski tutors?
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maybe because they charge less than half the price of the competition according to some recent threads?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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feshiebridge, I was in Serre Chevalier for the last couple of weeks, I definitely spotted some 'social skiing' going on, and not just with Crystal either.
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| Agenterre wrote: |
skimastaaah, zzzzzzzzz , come on do you call Chartered Accountants in England as
| Quote: |
| protectionist unionists masquerading as |
approved auditors under UK legislation? |
Not the best analogy IMO - auditors are performing a service to the public at large (albeit paid for by the company under scrutiny), so need to be licensed in a way that ski hosts should not (where "caveat emptor" might reasonably apply).
But you're definitely right in the sense that all professional bodies look after their members' interests (sometimes inner circles to the detriment of ordinary or aspiring members).
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The more I think about this the more I lean toward the local POV. While it's certainly neither 'instructing' nor 'guiding' in the defined sense, it does carry some and possibly considerable liability/responsibility toward the TO/customer. Any TO representative out with customers in a potentially dangerous environment should have quantifiable skills. The least of which should be the communication skills to summon and assist in an emergency situation, basic first aid skills and equipment, then the ability to show that they can ski competently on all inbound conditions.
Does that require a 'test' . . . yes
Would it add to the TOs costs . . . yes
Would it benefit the TOs . . . yes
A cost/benefit calculation is probably already in progress . . . and 'social skiing' is not the answer as it only takes a glance at the pass or passport to see a TO rep.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Seems to me that if a TO rep in such a situation as above was negligent then as a simple matter of English law the TO will be responsible for the actions ( or possibly lack of them ) of their employee.
But I do not see why testing is necessary . The liability is there , the TOs know it and does anyone believe the authorities backed up by the ESF are doing it becuase their prime concern is the H&S of a load of Brits staying in UK run and staffed chalets ?[/b]
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alltnaha, English law and French law is a glass of curdled milk and as has been posted, the ESF are not the driving force in the action. Testing for competence probably is necessary, us customers are precious goods that TOs want repeat business from.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Masque, I do enjoy your use of English but I thought the English law position was quite simple. And I understand that apparently the ESF are not the driving force - I said they were backing up the authorities - but they are supporting it and their refusal to comment speaks volumes.
I agree that the TOs want repeat business but the business is very competitive with small margins . Having said that I have enjoyed the hosting offered for years and would pay a reasonable increase for it - we as a family do look for it when choosing which TO to give our money to.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| alltnaha wrote: |
| Having said that I have enjoyed the hosting offered for years and would pay a reasonable increase for it - we as a family do look for it when choosing which TO to give our money to. |
So, just for clarity. Where do you believe the point of the increase should come? On the basic holiday cost (a good argument for spreading the hosting cost as wide a possible and thereby keeping the actual individual costs down)?
Or have a check list at the point of booking along with ski passes and equipment hire options, for example?
Or maybe as an add-on when on the coach and you're given your itinerary for all the wonderful things your TO is aiming to provide during your week?
What is your view on "reasonable"?
Personally, I'd rather see the service offering withdrawn as opposed to have the French find a way to extract more of my money. That said, I seem to be finding fewer and fewer reasons to ski in France over the last few years. This is just another.
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Chasseur, I don't think the TOs should be responsible for any training or qualification . . . that would be down to the individual. Where the TO would pay is for a better standard of Chalet Muppet . . . and would pay a more commensurate remuneration for that . . . I doubt it would cost them more than an Euro per client to do that, and probably a lot less.
I certainly wouldn't balk at a Fiver on a vacation to know that I was sliding with someone who could summon help quickly, coordinate with the authorities and provide good and proper immediate care in a bad situation.
To be honest I see it as a win for the TOs as I'm sure they could (with the usual marketing bolux) spin it as a (in this case) real benefit to their clients, with a greater return on investment. I also see a tie in with ski schools as a competent rep would certainly be an incentive to punters to gain additional skills.
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You know it makes sense.
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Masque, laudable idea and I do see the rationale.
In practice I rather fear it is impractical. The very nature of the majority of seasonnaire employment pools would probably mean few individuals with the motivation and funds to gain the qualification, leading to a very sparse service offering that would be available in limited resorts.
That in turn creates more confusion for punters and in turn could well become an issue for the TOs with disgruntled holiday-makers.
Another possible outcome could well be that the qualified "Chalet Muppet" might well baulk at some of the more menial job requirements....as in....punter: "why wasn't my room cleaned and bog spotlessly shiny today" Chalet Muppet: "well to be honest you seemed rather keen for the qualified guide to take you out in safety today"
Well, you get the gist.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| laundryman wrote: |
| Agenterre wrote: |
skimastaaah, zzzzzzzzz , come on do you call Chartered Accountants in England as
| Quote: |
| protectionist unionists masquerading as |
approved auditors under UK legislation? |
Not the best analogy IMO - auditors are performing a service to the public at large (albeit paid for by the company under scrutiny), so need to be licensed in a way that ski hosts should not (where "caveat emptor" might reasonably apply).
But you're definitely right in the sense that all professional bodies look after their members' interests (sometimes inner circles to the detriment of ordinary or aspiring members). |
People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices.
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Poster: A snowHead
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hughbedo, an acute observer, old Smith.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Masque and Chasseur, just out of interest: what sort of benchmark are you hoping for/expecting from a qualification for TO "guides"?
Having worked in the TO industry and conducted "ski escorting" for guests I absolutely agree that some training and evaluation is an absolute necessity. I'd probably also agree that it would make sense to also have some form of standard and formal "on-piste guiding" qualification/evaluation.
I've previously mentioned on this thread that, when I worked for Crystal, all those who would be conducting ski escorting went through a formal training process including classroom based theory of avalanche, piste safety and accident prevention/reaction which was delivered by professional independent bodies (henry's Avalanche Training and BASI). BASI also conducted on-mountain training on one day; one BASI instructor per group of 8-10 over a day. The instructor completed a form (informal I believe) stating whether the student was indeed capable of leading guests on the mountain, and its been confirmed that there have been staff that have failed this and therefore not been allowed to take guests out. All fair and common sense.
Masque states "I certainly wouldn't balk at a Fiver on a vacation to know that I was sliding with someone who could summon help quickly, coordinate with the authorities and provide good and proper immediate care in a bad situation." and I think that's an entirely fair statement. What I guess I'm asking is this; is there a fair compromise that you think is realistic for UK tour operators to use their own staff to lead guests around the mountain without gaining a fulling fledged guiding accreditation? There's a world of difference, of course, between on-piste leading and off-piste guiding. How realistic is it do you think for an appropriate qualification to be arrived at for this? That would seem like a winning solution in terms of health and safety and also for guests having the knowledge that they're being taken around by someone who is competent.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Tue 22-01-13 19:51; edited 1 time in total
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I was discussing this with the OH while we were away on holiday. I'm sure that British TOs have been on dodgy ground over this on many other occasions, and perhaps this is the only time it has been tested in court. I remember several years ago being told by a chalet host that the ski rep was stopped from hosting in one resort we were in (may have been La Plagne or Les Arcs).
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Dav, There's a can of worms . . . If you complete a BASI course you are being taught primarily to teach, there are additional external modules that include first aid and slope safety.
To be honest I think this is an opportunity for all the organisations to coordinate and develop a targeted and functional scheme for 'on piste' hosting that is both economically viable for the TOs and a revenue source to the schools and resorts . . . all without screwing the customer.
I think the basics I've listed above are a suitable basis for that.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Dav, Snowsports Scotland already do a Ski Leader course, which I guess is aimed primarily at teachers taking school pupils around the mountain. Is it very different to be doing this for adults?
http://www.snowsportscotland.org/become-a-leader
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Masque, I don't suppose any of that would cut any ice with the French.
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| Masque wrote: |
Dav, There's a can of worms . . . If you complete a BASI course you are being taught primarily to teach, there are additional external modules that include first aid and slope safety.
To be honest I think this is an opportunity for all the organisations to coordinate and develop a targeted and functional scheme for 'on piste' hosting that is both economically viable for the TOs and a revenue source to the schools and resorts . . . all without screwing the customer.
I think the basics I've listed above are a suitable basis for that. |
Agreed. And I think the basics you listed were indeed covered in my training to take customers out on the mountain, so I think its logical to try to standardise that across the industry. I just wonder if it is actually a realistic expectation to have a new "on piste guide" qualification, which is obviously much less stringent than an instructor certificate or off-piste guide. And I also wonder whether this whole move is to introduce such a measure, or whether it is to outlaw TO hosting entirely to push guiding revenues towards the local schools. I accept that there should be a recognised qualification, but I just wonder if this ruling will end up bypassing that and shutting out hosting for all but the over-qualified.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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laundryman, I think that would depend on the quality of your spoken French . . . 
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| Masque wrote: |
The more I think about this the more I lean toward the local POV. While it's certainly neither 'instructing' nor 'guiding' in the defined sense, it does carry some and possibly considerable liability/responsibility toward the TO/customer. Any TO representative out with customers in a potentially dangerous environment should have quantifiable skills. The least of which should be the communication skills to summon and assist in an emergency situation, basic first aid skills and equipment, then the ability to show that they can ski competently on all inbound conditions.
Does that require a 'test' . . . yes
Would it add to the TOs costs . . . yes
Would it benefit the TOs . . . yes
A cost/benefit calculation is probably already in progress . . . and 'social skiing' is not the answer as it only takes a glance at the pass or passport to see a TO rep. |
I have had a breaks etc with guest while skiing, two seasons ago during the end of Jan and beginning of Feb there was nothing but boiler plate on the slopes and people where been carried off the mountain at a great rate. I had an older lady break her hip on the wrong side of the mountain (i.e.) Italy. Long story short it all got sorted they thanks the help they got off me and I like to think I made a bad situation go smoother because I was there, I had to give an statement to the police because in Italy there is no such thing as an accident. Did my empolyeres at the time send me on loads of courses to do that? Mo I just applied my experience and common sense.
| Hells Bells wrote: |
Dav, Snowsports Scotland already do a Ski Leader course, which I guess is aimed primarily at teachers taking school pupils around the mountain. Is it very different to be doing this for adults?
http://www.snowsportscotland.org/become-a-leader |
But that is not recognised outside of Scotland.
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FAQ
