 Poster: A snowHead
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Bindingcheck, I'm (easily) confused so sorry but are you saying that there is a good reason for a speed test that you already know of but you want one of us to work it out?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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slikedges,
Re:
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you saying that there is a good reason for a speed test
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Well possibly, perhaps yes. But as the reason(s) could be the product of a deranged mind (mine) I wanted to find out what other people thought. I'm trying to get away from being narrow focussed on the function of "the Eurotest being to enable one to work in France thing..."
and I would add to your post -"one of us (you) to try to work it out for you (me)."
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Bindingcheck, i think the debate whether or not there should be a timed test is moot, the ET has been around for 10 years and is not going away. BASI, ISIA , FEMPs the EU are all in agreement that a timed test will be required in Europe as well as the EMS for ISTD mutual recognition. It has been reported that the EU wants an EU test and is looking at details.
Why does anyone think the EU may be persuaded to abandone the test at this juncture? surely the way forward is to try to influence how the test is run, what the pass level is set at, age handicapping and simplify the rules (eliminate the requirement for FIS approved skis for instance)
The only way this will be stopped will by by legal action and this has been threatened for years without a case coming forward.
How about this for an idea, Keep the ET to get an ISTD as have the pass rate as it is now and instead of a test technique or AVMS or other local country test how about an EU wide "ET light" so you can be EU recognised instructor in training and work outside your home country setting the bar at say 24%
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Bindingcheck, and no one has touched upon it yet?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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slikedges,
Yes, they almost certainly will have, but a) it's very spread out, 17 pages, and b) lots of distractions get thrown in; age, relevance to being an instructor, what %age, massaging the test time, 'tit for tat' arguments about what it takes to be an effective instructor, protectionism, it's a test of safety etc, etc.
My mind works by considering the 'possibilities' and considering the 'problems'. Most of the time it has been about the 'problems' and they are clearly categorised. I needed to distill the past 17 pages into the 'possibilities' category.
I can't help thinking that we have "stopped seeing the wood for the trees", or is it the other way round? ...... Still trying to get away from the focus being on the reward/consequence of passing the Eurotest as being the most important thing, which is why I am using racetest rather than Eurotest.
I've been taking on board all that has been written, and perhaps I'm thinking more about the BASI system. I guess I'm thinking laterally about the effect that having a racetest in the BASI system has or perhaps I should say, could have.
By the way 'booby' was a word substituted by Snowheads software - I wouldn't like to be an ornithologist on this website!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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jjc, sorry my wording wasnt clear, i was just throwing out an idea that if the ET is 18% for ISTD perhaps they could run an ET on the same courses etc but aimed for ISIA level guys at say 24% or so. If you pass this then you can work at any school within the EU as you train for ISTD. My worry is that if the ISTD becomes THE minimum std for mutual recognition we may end up restricting where people can train as skifuff pointed out and it would be good to have a clear set of rules on L2 and L3 wehre you can work. At the moment is a complete mare to understand all the various local laws. In some ways addressing what the French do with the Test Technique but make it the same GS test as ET so people get exposed to it earlier and can train for it as they progress on the pathway.
On the equipment side of things the ISIA test had no stipulations on min rad or length. It is a nightmare to try and even find 21 M 181 GS skis nowdays... Why cant you just rock up on any old skis?
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skimottaret,
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Quote:
eliminate the requirement for FIS approved skis for instance
And jjc's reply: This is just going to make it harder for yourself
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jjc will probably say it better but here goes.
The FIS regulations are actually intend to make skiing in each event safer (but sometimes, lesser mortals feel that they are making it more difficult). If a racer is travelling at GS type speed then obviously using a ski that is designed for that speed will be safer (even though it will be a dog to ski at 'normal' speeds)
HOWEVER, when FIS made the regulations they took into account the racers who were competing and generally speaking these guys are about 190-195cms and 95-105kgs. Which means if you are a 165cm, 70kg 'runt' skiing on full FIS skis is a tough call. Which is why, presumably, the rules allow one to drop down to a 181 x 21 ski.
BUT when one is in the racetrack the expectation is that you will be travelling at GS speed and that demands ski stability throughout the curve. Skiing on a shorter, tighter radius ski is not likely to make it 'easier'.
If you are a tall and heavier than 'runt' size you should be skiing on longer than 181 and bigger (radius) than 21 proportionate to your, bigger than 'runtness'. My guess is that when skiing at GS speeds most guys will perform better on (at least) womens 185 x 23 skis or most likely even longer/bigger radius skis.
I think I just made up some new words 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Bindingcheck, Like cheap putting remould tyres on a sports car 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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kevindonkleywood, More a question of agility v stability, in car terms short wheel base v long wheelbase etc. etc. 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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skimottaret,
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My worry is that if the ISTD becomes THE minimum std for mutual recognition we may end up restricting where people can train as skifuff pointed out and it would be good to have a clear set of rules on L2 and L3 wehre you can work.
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From what i hear its the french that are still cracking down but most other nations will keep to their current employ who they want status. Therefore if that is the case there will still be many opportunities for basi members to train and work.
Bindingcheck,
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The FIS regulations are actually intend to make skiing in each event safer (but sometimes, lesser mortals feel that they are making it more difficult). If a racer is travelling at GS type speed then obviously using a ski that is designed for that speed will be safer (even though it will be a dog to ski at 'normal' speeds)
HOWEVER, when FIS made the regulations they took into account the racers who were competing and generally speaking these guys are about 190-195cms and 95-105kgs. Which means if you are a 165cm, 70kg 'runt' skiing on full FIS skis is a tough call. Which is why, presumably, the rules allow one to drop down to a 181 x 21 ski.
BUT when one is in the racetrack the expectation is that you will be travelling at GS speed and that demands ski stability throughout the curve. Skiing on a shorter, tighter radius ski is not likely to make it 'easier'.
If you are a tall and heavier than 'runt' size you should be skiing on longer than 181 and bigger (radius) than 21 proportionate to your, bigger than 'runtness'. My guess is that when skiing at GS speeds most guys will perform better on (at least) womens 185 x 23 skis or most likely even longer/bigger radius skis.
I think I just made up some new words
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Pretty spot on! Only thing is I'm 170cm and about 60-65 kg so by your definition runt sized 
I do however manage a 191cm 27m (jjc's old set) radius ski and 150 flex (alain baxter's old set) boots. There is an element of technique that comes into this as better technique creates more power, dealing with that power can be a problem . This is where recreational skiers turned Instructors struggle with skis that simply react differently to their previous non specific equipment. These skis also require more precise technique, anyone a bit static and un-commited above the fall line will find these skis unresponsive and unenjoyable. Used correctly though and they can be an all mountain ski! Off piste, Bumps, Shorts etc all doable on 191cm 27m GS skis, in fact bumps are more fun on the big rig sometimes!
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jjc james, you have been talking to Fastman and my old instructors about skis haven't you
So far I'm only up to comfy on a cheater GS most of the time... I remember my first time on a GS ski - on a tree run - and I kept making noises and getting told "You want to learn to be a good skier. A good skier is able to ski on any ski anywhere, any conditions. Nothing wrong with the ski, learn to ski it" (Gotta love those touchy feely race coach types)
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You know it makes sense.
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little tiger, we've all been there i hated skis for the first year of fis until i got used to them.
My coach used to make us do gs radius turns down an off piste bumps section every time there was powder/fresh snow on it! I thank him for it now but at the time i just wanted to go for a ski with the guys!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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jjc, Haha.... lets see if your still laughing later when i demolish you at fifa!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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This info is quite old and is dated 2004 but a summary of the French qualified Ski Instructors
Interesting only a tiny amount had the BEES 1 (ISTD with Eurotest) in the first 4 years of the ET being a part of their system and most were moniteurs national with about 30% being trainees
510 4% qualification supérieure Diplôme d'ETAT - BEES 1er Degré Ski Alpin
2211 17% nievaux differents Stagiaire Preformation 2'211
960 7% Aspirant Moniteur 960
8545 64% Moniteur National 8545
345 3% Assistant Moniteur 354
106 1% Monitrices d'enfants 106
60 0% Attestation de classification 60
600 4% Honoraires retrétés 600
13337
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Bindingcheck wrote: |
skimottaret,
The FIS regulations are actually intend to make skiing in each event safer (but sometimes, lesser mortals feel that they are making it more difficult). If a racer is travelling at GS type speed then obviously using a ski that is designed for that speed will be safer (even though it will be a dog to ski at 'normal' speeds)
HOWEVER, when FIS made the regulations they took into account the racers who were competing and generally speaking these guys are about 190-195cms and 95-105kgs. Which means if you are a 165cm, 70kg 'runt' skiing on full FIS skis is a tough call. Which is why, presumably, the rules allow one to drop down to a 181 x 21 ski.
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Not sure about that, my understanding is that when the ET was formulated they initially insisted on full compliance to FIS rules including course homologation and equipment. This was eased as people were being forced to buy new equipment everytime the FIS regs changed. They allow older versions of FIS regulation equipment. the 181 x 21 WAS the reg a few years ago now it is 27 yet the courses are still set to 21 and you can still use older version FIS skis..
Haggis_Trap, Yes they have gone to great lengths to clarify France and have a procedure to help apply for equivalence so ISTD's can work there. I wish they would approach other key regions that BASI instructors tend to work in and develop a similar set of guidelines and help. Try to find out where you can work with an L2 or L3 within European countries and what each regions/countries/Cantons current rules actually are. It wouldnt be too difficult for BASI to assemble a summary of rules, then translate and publish them. Maybe some links to respective application forms for right of establishment. The association should be working harder to help L2 and L3's with where and for how long they can work, Using the "depends on local laws " clause isnt really that helpful is it?
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Tue 24-05-11 12:09; edited 1 time in total
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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skimottaret,
Not too familiar with some of those categories and I am sure that are a lot more women employed by the ESF as Monitrices d'enfants than 1%.
Presumably the Moniteur Nationals were qualified before the Brussels Agreement came into effect.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Bindingcheck, yes the nationals were previous to ET and as i mentioned the info is quite old but informative none the less.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
| I wish they would approach other key regions that BASI instructors tend to work and develop a similar set of guidelines and help. Try to find out where you can work with an L2 or L3 within European countries and what each regions/countries/Cantons current rules actually are |
The link I already posted contains clear summary information for Andorra, Australia, Austria, France, Italy, NZ, CH and USA. Which covers the locations 99% UK instructors end up working.
http://www.basi.org.uk/content/employment-canada.aspx
Personally I reckon BASI deserve credit for getting their qualifications so well accepted globally? Believe it or not you can use a humble BASI 2 to get an entry level job pretty much everywhere.
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Haggis_Trap, we are digressing a bit but how really clear is the information? look for instance at Austria, you will find it only applies to Tirol, only one region. Switzerland is unclear. Italy says "can legally work according to the Italian regional rules in some provinces, for up to 15 days in one season, but this time can be different in other regions. You must confirm with the Collegio Regionale who you are working for and where. " etc etc. lots of buts, what ifs and it depends on the local laws....
my point being is that it is a complete minefield of conflicting and unclear information at the moment and it should not be down to the individual to have to reinvent the wheel and work this out for themselves. the summary info on the BASI site hasnt changed for quite a while and could be improved upon...
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A interesting discussion on a similar thread is starting on the linked-in basi group.
Interestingly one of the posters reckoned that in 2004 the average amount spent attaining the ISTD level qualification was £34,000. I reckon you can add at least £10,000 to that now with the extra modules which have been added since then.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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A large chunk of that is their living expenses i am guessing?
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jjc, fee's and expenses apparently. I was sorting my accounts last week and I noticed (!) it cost me the thick end of £1500 to do the MS in Zermatt in November, so I can believe it.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I can believe it to with all the expenses, I don’t think it is much more than £5000 in course fees with no re takes. So I would imagine the amount spent really varies depending on where candidates are staying etc and of course how smoothly they move through the system. It can be done for much cheaper than 34,000 but unfortunately for some it could cost more.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Yeah those weeks in the hemizues were pricey, think i did about 90% of my courses there, adding that up thats 12 bloody weeks in hemizues with second disc and snowboarding. jjc the weeks we did in hinterux were way cheaper in that appartment even with eating out.
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jjc, you do unavoidably have to add lift passes on to the course fees - easily adding as much as another £3000 to the fees before you count travel/living costs.
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You know it makes sense.
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stevomcd, for sure, i was just thinking the total cost (course fees + all expenses) must vary massively from person to person. For example david@mediacopy, spent £1500 on his mountain saftey and i spent about £900 possibly less.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I have four suggestions:
1 All BASI Trainers should have a ET Pass on their CV.
2 BASI Tech should be more geared to teaching GS speed and line.
3 BASI Ski Teaching (after all the fun and customer-service etc) should produce increasing numbers of medal-winners in the customer-base, and be measured on that.
4 A Seniors ET should be an option for the over-50s and it should count towards ISTD.
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Poster: A snowHead
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jjc, Not sure how I'd have been able to take £600 out of it, but then I expect that the SF is a different beast from when you did it.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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david@mediacopy, I did it in Hintertux with these as my rough costs
Course fee: £440
Accom: £75 (Self catered half way down the mountain sharing with 4 others)
Food: £100 ish (It was likely less as we cooked for ourselves splitting the food bill 4 ways.....I am bit of a fatty  so always budget 100)
Lift pass: £200 (would have been a little less but took this from the Hintertux website)
Travel: £100 (Again I think it was less as was close to resort and had a full car)
915 but i think less
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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jjc, You did well. I ended up having to buy a but of kit and accommodation was pretty steep for me in Zermatt.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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The kit can definitely be costly, I was fortunate enough to borrow jjc james, gear.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I've been following this thread for a while now and have question?
Many of those (not all, but some of whom I know) who are deriding the eurotest and citing it as an obstacle have yet to pass the other modules for the ISTD such as the tech, which requests a high level of skiing on it's own.
To me, it seems odd to question the validity of a test, citing it as an obstacle (be it due to age, ability or whatever) when, realistically, it only becomes such when all other modules are complete.
I personally see no realistic reason for the eurotest but, we have it in place just as the other modules. It means that those who pass all modules through ISTD are better and more rounded skiers. I have seen evidence that this will lead to better trainers and raising the standard of the system all round.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Some stats were mentioned earlier, here is the round up of the snowsports industry this year - http://t.co/SLC751V
Interesting reading!
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Scoundrels!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Philbo wrote: |
Many of those (not all, but some of whom I know) who are deriding the eurotest and citing it as an obstacle have yet to pass the other modules for the ISTD such as the tech, which requests a high level of skiing on it's own.
To me, it seems odd to question the validity of a test, citing it as an obstacle (be it due to age, ability or whatever) when, realistically, it only becomes such when all other modules are complete. |
I don't agree with your assertion Philbo.
The true measure isn't the number who are stuck with the Eurotest as the last thing - it's the number that did ISIA, but never started ISTD because they didn't believe it worth starting a journey they had no realistic prospect of finishing.
If the Eurotest has a place anywhere it's in the coaching stream.
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| FlyingStantoni wrote: |
| Philbo wrote: |
Many of those (not all, but some of whom I know) who are deriding the eurotest and citing it as an obstacle have yet to pass the other modules for the ISTD such as the tech, which requests a high level of skiing on it's own.
To me, it seems odd to question the validity of a test, citing it as an obstacle (be it due to age, ability or whatever) when, realistically, it only becomes such when all other modules are complete. |
I don't agree with your assertion Philbo.
The true measure isn't the number who are stuck with the Eurotest as the last thing - it's the number that did ISIA, but never started ISTD because they didn't believe it worth starting a journey they had no realistic prospect of finishing.
If the Eurotest has a place anywhere it's in the coaching stream. |
In BASI there are 3x as many ISTD as ISIA's.
That says several things...
1) Most people that do the ISIA eventually go on to pass their ISTD
2) If you pass the ISTD technical modules then you will probably manage the euro test (perhaps with some training).
3) ISIA as a standalone qualification has limited merit / benefit. Especially if you don't want to teach skiing as a career..
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FAQ
Have you been working out 