 Poster: A snowHead
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Late to this thread - currently writing from Germany adsorbing some of our quarantine days from France which we face when we arrive back in UK on Monday.
I struggle to remain positive about skiing in 20/21 season and as such didn’t bother buying season tickets that were at a reduced rate @ €795 for adult+child bundle. I just think with a 2nd wave on the way as can be seen with current figures, probably accelerated by cold temps, we are heading for reciprocal quarantine which makes it impossible to travel with school aged children. Thrown in travel warnings, possible no deal brexit impact on EHIC etc are it all gets very murky.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, it seems I'm contradicted on both fronts! My experience in the Valais is countered by Gämsbock in Basel and @snowdave seems certain that no arrangement based on existing General Practices and their associated health services can possibly work.
But the feedback is that people aren't taking up the new parallel testing service because for many, they're impractically distant. But I still think, given equivalent funding, covid suspects could readily be separated from regular patients at many GP practices. And would be more effective.
The SwissCovid app has been available since June 25 and I downloaded it no problem and have got the odd informational notification from it. Of course, it's hard to judge if it's working from a personal point of view. I know there's a practical issue with people who live/work across the French/Swiss border, because the two apps don't integrate. But at least the Swiss, and French, have one.
I've probably drifted from the observation that I was trying to convey, which is that both France and Switzerland are doing a much better job of preparing for the next phase - which to work needs easier access to testing and automated contact tracing and possibly automated certification. And thus for the next season, concern over quarantine on return may come to dominate over concern about quarantine on arrival at your choice of Alpine location.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| dode wrote: |
| ... You only have to self isolate until you get a back a negative test result, then you are free to go about your normal business. |
If you are talking about the UK, do you have a link to that advice? I thought that airlines etc were hoping to persuade the goverrnment to adopt this, but at present you have to stay in self-isolation for the full 14days even if you get a negative test result in that period.
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On testing, UK now has the second highest test rate per capita in Europe - 2.39 per 1000.
Denmark is the highest, with 5.13/1000.
Switzerland is 1.06/100
France 1.63/1000
Germany 1.68/1000
Austria 1.15/1000
UK was absolutely hopeless on testing at the start, but the capacity has increased hugely now.
FF to 2020-21 ski season, I've booked both Feb half term and Easter with the kids, but fully expect not to be going skiing now. I think the quarantine (at both ends) will do for most peoples' ski holidays, especially with parents with children who will need to be back at school afterwards.
I can't see the Europe-wide COVID case incidence situation being better in February, with all the colds/coughs/seasonal flu that winter will bring, than it is now. Things can only get worse.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| NickyJ wrote: |
| snowornever wrote: |
| holidayloverxx wrote: |
| @snowornever, how do you think a quarantine works? You would have to plan to be on France for 3 weeks..2 for quarantine and 1 following for skiing. Then 2 weeks quarantine when you get back, if quarantine is proscribed at the time of your departure and return. If you book and subsequently quarantine is imposed then unless you could change your booking to 2 weeks further ahead and find somewhere suitable to quarantine I would suggest you won't be going. |
I know exactly how it works , that’s why I phrased the question to reflect how people will manage their 1 week holiday!
So no 1 week holidays then
Season screwed |
Both me and hubby can if needed work from home. School is of more concern and there are no 3 week school holiday which coincide with main ski season (inside Europe). We have booked a week in Austria for Christmas week, so they would end missing 4 days of school (inset day straight after Christmas holidays) if Austria is taken of the “against FCO advice list” to allow us out there but then RE-Added while we are there, we are prepared for it and feel it is a worthwhile trade |
Are you allowing for the possibility of the UK being added to the Austria "do not travel" list? When you could still go, but would have to quarantine in your hotel/apartment and not ski! 
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If that is the case BEFORE then we won’t go - if it happens while we are there c’est la vie.
You never know what will happen in live - when we went on the SFaB my mum managed to break her ankle in 3 places on the way out of the Carrefour before we even managed to check into the rooms. There is always something than can happen, doesn’t stop us trying.
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@ecureuil, that was the advice I was given by NHS111. I called in with symptoms that included a high temp. I was told to get tested because of this and to self isolate until I got my results back. Unless, of course, the test was positive.
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Should add: that was also the advice given to a young lad at work whose son developed a cough. Self isolate until son gets tested and gets the results. All clear to return to work if test is negative.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Is the elephant in the room in all thisa sense of denial that the reason for the 14 day quarantine periods imposed by UK on places like France, Switzerland and Austria is because the expert view is those countries pose a risk to anyone traveling there of catching and passing on the virus to people back here?
the quarantine is almost being treated as a sort of price to pay to go skiiing...
The FCO advice is still not to travel unless it is essential to do so, do you really think a ski holiday is essential, and who do you think is to blame if you travel and then get caught out by a change in the regulations for the chosen country?
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@snowornever, if the fco advice stays the same between now and Christmas week, then we don’t get to go. But you have to be prepared for the advice to change on you as it has to many in the summer, a friend included.
Again he doesn’t regret the choice - he knew there was a risk advice may change BUT he hadn’t seen his Mum and Dad who live in France since Christmas.
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Fri 28-08-20 19:12; edited 1 time in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| NickyJ wrote: |
@snowornever, if the fco advice stays the same between now and Christmas week, then we don’t get to go. But you have to be prepared for the advice to change on you as it has to many in the summer, a friend included.
Again he doesn’t regret the choice - he knew there was a rain advice may change BUT he hadn’t seen his Mum and Dad who live in France since Christmas. |
My comment was not specific to your post!
It should be a matter of personal choice but with doing the right thing as the priority I would have thought,
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@snowornever, I can easily see a situation whereby many of the main skiing countries remain on 14 day quarantine status.
The UK Government will be very, very, reluctant to un-list just because the rate dips below the 20/100,000 threshold.
Add to that the very real prospect of the UK rate going up and those countries imposing 14 days on us.
All in all I sadly think that 2020-21 season could be a no-go for the vast majority of UK skiers...and that is before we even consider the Insurance question.
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@LaForet, Yes the Swiss and the French have got an app, but the latest stuff I can find is a month old, but not much use according to the BBC
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/technology-53485569
UK testing has been covered.
It may appear to you that they are better prepared for another wave, yet their recent new case rates are much, much higher than the UKs. Of course their economies may well be doing a bit better because of it. But even Macron has mentioned the chance of a national lockdown.
@rungsp, Why, the UK has already removed Portugal from the naughty step with British holidaymakers flocking there.
As for skiing next season, some countries are going to have to Get a grip of the current situation sharpish or there will be no confidence from Brit skiers unless we get a vaccine
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You know it makes sense.
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| LaForet wrote: |
Well, it seems I'm contradicted on both fronts! My experience in the Valais is countered by Gämsbock in Basel and @snowdave seems certain that no arrangement based on existing General Practices and their associated health services can possibly work.
But the feedback is that people aren't taking up the new parallel testing service because for many, they're impractically distant. But I still think, given equivalent funding, covid suspects could readily be separated from regular patients at many GP practices. And would be more effective.
The SwissCovid app has been available since June 25 and I downloaded it no problem and have got the odd informational notification from it. Of course, it's hard to judge if it's working from a personal point of view. I know there's a practical issue with people who live/work across the French/Swiss border, because the two apps don't integrate. But at least the Swiss, and French, have one.. |
I’ve expressed no certainty about anything, but have observed the facts - your belief that the Swiss system is universally better is directly contradicted by the data. Testing in Switzerland is far less widespread, and finding far fewer of the real cases (based on the positive test rate, which should be as low as possible to show you’re testing as many people as possible). Currently, Switzerland has to do just 34 tests to find a positive, in the UK it’s 150. Whatever the early failings of the UK testing infrastructure, we’re testing the heck out of everyone now.
Having an app isn’t much good if you’re only finding 10-20% of index cases, which looks to be roughly what’s being found in Switzerland.
That’s one of the reasons that the government has said that it’s not a blanket “over 20 cases per 100k” threshold for travel - it’s a subjective judgement based on whether countries have low figures because they aren’t testing well, how fast they are ramping, and many other factors. Trying to figure out which countries meet the subjective requirements may be as important for planning next season as it is to look at the raw numbers, but is much harder. I’ve got plenty of travel now booked for the next 6months including next ski season, but I’ve no idea if I’ll be able to take any of it!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I think most people are missing the main point. If the idiots in charge implement a second lockdown with the severity of the first one, it would definitely be a case of “Could the last one please turn off the lights!” for most major economies. The truth is - no one can afford a second lockdown.
As for the quarantine- please, do me a favour. Skiing in France more dangerous and likely to increase the infection rate in the U.K. vs the great unwashed getting rat ass drunk on Friday night across the U.K.? Really? Or is it more - we monumentally fooked up at the start, got to be seen to be doing something now. Oh yes, let’s stop those pesky foreign COVID19 carriers coming back in. But the truckers can drive in. I can book a flight from Paris to Berlin and then on to London and avoid the quarantine. I can go through the electronic gates at the airport and avoid the quarantine all together The T&T system relies on manual labour in the 21st century... I can go on and on...
P.S. Two weeks over Christmas and a week in Feb booked in the Grand Massif. A week in Georgia booked for March. And two long weekends booked in Bansko for Jan
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Poster: A snowHead
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| chocksaway wrote: |
It may appear to you that they are better prepared for another wave |
better prepared in what way? Office staff and school kids ordered back from next week doesn't seem a like a great plan unless the idea is to blitz everyone in September with Covid from the people who've picked it up on holidays.
I don't think there has been any meaningful preparation in France.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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In another week Sweden will be under the 20/100,000 threshold. Let’s see if we make it on the UK exempt list. No chance of surprise quarantine on arrival or flip flopping in the rules from our end.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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'Having an app isn’t much good if you’re only finding 10-20% of index cases, which looks to be roughly what’s being found in Switzerland.
But having an app is surely better then not having one at all? Which is what I was complaining about. I thought ours was going to be 'world beating'? And released in March? Instead, nothing. This should be on the front page of the newspapers but of course, it's all forgotten. I said an app was no silver bullet, but pointing to other implementations being flawed is no excuse for the UK Government basically giving up on the idea. No one expected perfection on v1.0 but by now, 5 months later, we should be on CovidUK app v 3.0. The tech is do-able, even it it needs a couple of iterations to get it right. That we haven't got CV 3.0 is down to pure incompetence and bodes badly for the next phase of opening-up education and work:
The next phase - where we reinstate education, office attendance etc. - needs good Track and Trace, backed up by easy and rapid testing, supported by automated app technology. The UK has a poor T&T capability, a parallel testing setup that many people find hard to access, and no app. I don't think any country in Europe has all three implemented well - I'm encouraged by the Swiss example, but not so much by France. I still think that the main concern in the next+1 phase in 2021 will be continued incompetence of the UK response, rather than the inevitable shortcomings of any French/Swiss/Austrian/Italian setups i.e. when the UK arbitrarily forces quarantine on returnees from entire countries because it had no other tool at its disposal and wants to appear dynamic and in control, when it's neither.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Sun 30-08-20 10:52; edited 1 time in total
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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A vaccine will begin to be rolled out by Xmas potentially sooner, 2021 will be a rebuilding year for the world as vaccine rolled out, there will be a ski season, there will no apres. We've booked 2 weeks skiing in January and March, can't wait.
The saddest part is the economic consequences of COVID over the next 2 years is going make COVID look pleasant and our kids wont need pensions as they will be working till they are 90 to pay off the free money chucked about of late.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@cheburator, On the money. Higher chance catching covid whilst shopping in Oldham than skiing in France.
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@cheburator, On the money. Higher chance catching covid whilst shopping in Oldham and skiing in France.
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France has reported a much lower number of new cases in the last 24 hours: 5,400 compared to 7,300 the day before. Caveats about weekend reporting apply, but hopefully this proves to be positive.
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There has been lots of talk about what happens if the country you are going to has been put on the FCO "Essential Travel only" list, with quarantine needed on return...but....
What happens if you have booked with a TO - say to France - where at the time of travel, France is not on "The UK List", but has a quarantine period for those coming from the UK? This means your Ski Hol will be spent in quarantine - so would this trigger a refund from the TO?
I have emailed this question to Crystal, along with who is responsible for the extra costs associated with being locked in resort for a period of time after the end of the holiday.
If anyone has got any answers to this, please share.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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We seem to be getting a trickle of enquiries from “optimists”, who have booked cheap flights, want to secure their accommodation, and seem to be assuming that it is more likely to be business as usual, than not. Independent travellers obviously. T.O. is a different ballgame.
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@Old Fartbag, no information, but I suspect that in those circumstances a TO is under no obligation to refund - although better ones might do so. Unlike this year the resort would still be open, resort staff still in place, accommodation booked and available for you etc. And if regional quarantines are brought in, as some people want, then it gets even more tricky because other UK customers may not even have to quarantine so flights and transfers might also be operating as normal.
A TO essentially provides travel, transfers, accommodation and usually some food, in a location chosen by the client. There is nothing that says you have to ski/board when you get there - and some people don't. Admittedly not many stay in their room for the whole week - but anyone contracting a serious infection / injury might even do just that, which has some parallels with quarantining!
Given the uncertainty I recommend not spending anything you aren't prepared to lose!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@ecureuil, At this time, I am only asking questions/gathering info. I have no intention of booking anything until next year.....and even even then, it is unlikely to happen given the uncertainty.
If I get a definitive answer from Crystal, I will post it up.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Crystal and Inghams are selling holidays to Finland, but the current Finnish rules are that anyone coming in from anywhere other than 7 particular countries has to self-isolate on arrival. Unless things change, surely this is a potential nightmare for punters and the companies alike. And surely travel insurance would not pay out in those circumstances, as the holiday would be booked with that information already known at the time of booking.
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| Old Fartbag wrote: |
@ecureuil, At this time, I am only asking questions/gathering info. I have no intention of booking anything until next year.....and even even then, it is unlikely to happen given the uncertainty.
If I get a definitive answer from Crystal, I will post it up. |
I’m sure if you look on their website it says that if you can’t ski because the ski area is closed, or if traveller have to isolate on arrival they will move your booking to a different country, or possibly to next year. I can’t remember the details but did have a read at the weekend and it looked relatively risk free booking with them so think I’m going to over the next couple of weeks.
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You know it makes sense.
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I did look on their website. Their "Book with Confidence" page mentions ABTA/ATOL protection and the 'no snow' promise, but nothing about Covid-19, isolation or quarantine.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Just searched and couldn’t find anything either but I know I read something at the weekend so I’ve just trawled through my junk emails and found an email from them, which I’m going to make sure I save now! Copied the relevant bits below:
We’re looking ahead to this winter and want to give you as much information as possible. Here’s what you can expect when you book a Crystal ski holiday
We won't take you to resorts where we know you'll need to self-isolate or quarantine when you get there or when you get back home
If you’re due to go on holiday but have been diagnosed with COVID-19, have symptoms or have been asked to self-isolate, you can submit a medical certificate and amend your booking for free. You can also amend for free if your local UK area goes into lockdown.
If the Foreign & Commonwealth Office (FCO) advice changes before you go or while you’re on holiday, we’ll contact you to discuss the next steps. If it changes to ‘all but essential travel’, you can amend or cancel your holiday for free.
If there are overseas local restrictions that impact your ability to get on the mountain – like the ski area is closed due to COVID-19 – then we’ll contact you to change your booking or cancel and refund your holiday for free.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| drporat wrote: |
@Mosha Marc, which hotel?
You've booked directly through their website or TO/booking etc.? |
sorry, I'd missed that. we've booked in Hotel Altitude via Booking.com.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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The people making the snobbish comments about boozy nights out in the UK are ignoring the clear evidence that the virus thrives in colder conditions where its outer fatty shell survives much better leading to greater infection rates. Ski resorts literally sowed the seeds of the epidemic across Europe and people need to take heed of that instead of being selfish me me me needing your ski fix.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
instead of being selfish me me me needing your ski fix.
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Can't disagree. There is really no *need* for ski trips right now. It seems like a no brainer to stop international travel until this is sorted. Some of the poorer countries in the world that have economies significantly contributed to by tourism have managed to close their borders, so there is no excuse. You can argue that international travel isn't so high risk, but clearly there is some risk, just look at new zealand.
Personally I'm not booking anything. I'm in the fortunate position of getting a couple of months skiing each of the last 4 years so am using this winter to focus on some other things. If a vaccine comes out or if things are remarkably different by next year I may consider a last minute week away. Right now it doesn't seem worth the hassle.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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There will plenty of social meeting going on in this country during the winter so cant see why its any different to a ski resort, if you can go to a pub/restaurant in the UK why not in mountain, the same rules can apply and of course there is no law that says you have to go to a bar on a ski holiday. If yhese resorts dont get visitors this winter they may very well not be there in the future for us to visit. Unless youre in a hgh risk group the "danger" of going skiing is pretty small in relation to other risks, if someone thinks they dont want to go thats fine we have booked up and intend going, IF there is a lot of it about when we are there we will make sure we isolate away from others when we return and have a test to ensure we dont spread it
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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There are three parts (maybe more) to this...
#1 Travel - driving pretty safe, train and plane much less so but I'd imagine procedures to reduce infection much better now??
#2 Skiing itself - very low risk as an outdoor sport, most lifts in the open and enclosed lifts can be managed.
#3 Bars/restaurants - medium perhaps low risk if operating with reduced capacity, distancing, sitting outdoors
For me using planes and trains to get there seems the biggest issue but I don't know if progress has been made on making those more safe.
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Its easy to say skiing doesn't matter but there is a slight matter of the world economy. The reality is the economic consequences of COVID are going to be more devastating than COVID itself. Only the rich or deluded can ignore the upcoming economic tsunami, we do need to get back to normal. Anyway there will be a vaccine by Xmas...
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| robs1 wrote: |
| There will plenty of social meeting going on in this country during the winter so cant see why its any different to a ski resort, if you can go to a pub/restaurant in the UK why not in mountain, the same rules can apply and of course there is no law that says you have to go to a bar on a ski holiday.... |
The difference is surely the travel aspect? Going out and mixing locally can be fine if there is a low level in infection in that community, and if it builds up there can be a local lockdown. It IS no different in a ski resort if only locals are involved. But once people start travelling from one place to another a small pocket of virus almost anywhere can quickly spread across a country / continent - as happened this year.
Although most ski resorts are keen for international visitors, they would probably rather restrict it to a more local population if it turns out that the alternative is to shut completely a few weeks into the season.
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If the Premier League can start filling stadiums, Twickenham having 20000 fans for England v Barbarians later on in the year....then I feel completely safe and justified driving in my car, into France, renting a place to ourselves, spending most of the day outside and far away from others and then returning to our accommodation.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I'm looking at it from my new Zealand friends point of view. They were covid free, then started allowing flights to come in and are back under lockdown again now. Its a bit of a kick in the teeth for those people that put the effort into isolating and stopping the spread there. As said above it only takes one person to bring it back, while you may try your best socially distancing we know not everyone will. Also I don't see how you can reduce the risk to zero. All it takes is one person coughing into a hand/glove and then touching something that you then touch. There are also the unforeseeable things, what happens if you fall and injure yourself? Need to go to hospital for x-rays etc.
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FAQ
But feel free to post the powder days on an empty mountain. That's the reward for the risk. Take it and be happy with whatever comes of it!