 Poster: A snowHead
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ISIA world wide requirement for the stamp includes a foreign language and an off piste certificate. Level 2 can do EMS level 2 and so work off piste going up and down.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| spud wrote: |
It's not just about teaching in a foreign language, there are so many other parts of the job where you would need to understand the language spoken...staff meetings, communicating with other members, workers, visitors of the resort. |
As someone who has done training in a foreign language for France Telecom (and more recently groups of little horrors skiing!) it is tiring. Couple that with the physical rigeurs of a 6 day week on the slopes and I can imagine that it would make the job much much harder. At least when I was at FT I could call a break and go for a coffee for half and hour!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Indeed Spud. The current language requirements for ski qualifications are a joke. There could be a justified argument under the directive for bringing in a local language aptitude test to demonstrate that you have sufficient local language to deal with an emergency situation and in practice that would be at least A level standard. I understand that there is talk of such a requirement being introduced. No problem for the likes of the Dutch who can typically also speak English and German but it will potentially exclude a lot of British instructors from working in Europe and already does to a large extent in practice.
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| Stephen59 wrote: |
| ISIA world wide requirement for the stamp includes a foreign language and an off piste certificate. Level 2 can do EMS level 2 and so work off piste going up and down. |
I've heard ISIA foreign language cert can be done over the phone and is very basic...also how can you prove that you are the 'real Instructor' on the end of the phone? It's like getting someone else to do your driving test!!!
I know a ISIA qualified Instructor who works Canada and New Zealand and is a Gap year course conductor who can speak no other language than English and that's not the best either 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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too many "I heard", "I understand", "my mate told me" and "I read somewheres" going on in this thread...
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A highly qualified British instructor working in France told me (here we go again, skimottaret), years ago now, that he'd been nervous about the French language test but walked in and the chap greeted him, and told him to sit down. So he sat down and was told he had passed the test. Might have been a slight exaggeration but he did say the test was a bit of a joke.
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Nice anecdote.
It is appropriate to be circumspect given the pending court case, vested interests and strong feelings. It is also not fair to name individual sources. Some of the debate on FB is more open and direct but some of it is unedifying. The only facts we know for sure are the directive which is evolving and open to interpretation.
The IASI language requirements per the BASI web site which have admittedly have been beefed up since my previous reading are that it can still be done by phone and is GCSE std. GCSE is level 2 out of 6 on the common European framework where 6 is fluent but not native speaker. To be a trainee doctor you need level 4 (A- level), level 5 to study a degree and in practice level 6 to get a job in other professions. I understand (I was not there) that increasing the language level is being discussed by the IASI as part of the MoU. Level 2 GCSE really is inadequate in my experience and level 4 A level really is the absolute minimum required to deal with a safety situation so language could well be the new justified safety aptitude test.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
Level 2 GCSE really is inadequate in my experience and level 4 A level really is the absolute minimum required to deal with a safety situation so language could well be the new justified safety aptitude test.
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Agreed. Most kids with a mediocre GCSE would struggle to order a meal with any competence. I was shocked when, after spending a few weeks learning Italian, I was told by my teacher daughter that she thought I was up to GCSE standard. So I did a test paper and certainly was. I was amazed how basic it was. When I did O level French and German, aeons ago, I was certainly far more competent than I was after a few weeks of Italian. The test - which could easily be done on the telephone - ought to simulate an emergency situation on a poor radio connection, with the instructor having to describe his party and its position, describe the problem, including any , understand the response and discuss options for rescue. I think I could just about scrape that in French - and my French is well above GCSE.
If I had asked for a French or Austrian instructor who spoke English and got someone at GCSE equivalent standard I'd be very cross - and very surprised.
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| pam w wrote: |
| The test - which could easily be done on the telephone - ought to simulate an emergency situation on a poor radio connection, with the instructor having to describe his party and its position, describe the problem, including any , understand the response and discuss options for rescue. |
The test may be carried out face to face or by telephone and includes an emergency sinario.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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That is correct and it includes interaction with a client and the central theme in the local language. I think at GCSE you could give some learnt staged responses but in the real world I know GCSE level is wholly inadequate to function. At A level Std you probably could cope with an emergency situation but it would still be laboured and would not be good enough to effectively interact with clients in a lesson.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Mrs W wrote: |
| emergency sinario. |
Without an Aryan? 
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The ISIA standard is set to test basic communication that could alert the pisteurs in event of an accident on the slopes.
Certainly the level is not high - and it is not expected that you would actually be able to teach in the foreign language.
Of course it is the ISIA, not BASI, that set this level.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
The ISIA standard is set to test basic communication that could alert the pisteurs in event of an accident on the slopes.
Certainly the level is not high - and it is not expected that you would actually be able to teach in the foreign language.
Of course it is the ISIA, not BASI, that set this level. |
I wonder if anyone knows the protocol regarding administering first aid as a Ski Instructor to a client if injured in Europe, or does it depend on the Ski School or Country?
Where I work as an Instructor in Canada, I require no first Aid Certificate, and am not allowed to administer any help apart from making 'comfortable' the injured party. I must call Patrol and let them deal with it.
It goes against my human nature not to give assistance especially if a life or death situation..ie stopped breathing...but it's for legal reasons.
Most Ski Schools I've approached in Europe have asked for a first Aid Cert...so are you allowed to use those skills if necessary...or do have to leave it for Patrol?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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spud, I really can't believe you're not allowed to help a client if they've stopped breathing?! 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| spud wrote: |
| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
The ISIA standard is set to test basic communication that could alert the pisteurs in event of an accident on the slopes.
Certainly the level is not high - and it is not expected that you would actually be able to teach in the foreign language.
Of course it is the ISIA, not BASI, that set this level. |
I wonder if anyone knows the protocol regarding administering first aid as a Ski Instructor to a client if injured in Europe, or does it depend on the Ski School or Country?
Where I work as an Instructor in Canada, I require no first Aid Certificate, and am not allowed to administer any help apart from making 'comfortable' the injured party. I must call Patrol and let them deal with it.
It goes against my human nature not to give assistance especially if a life or death situation..ie stopped breathing...but it's for legal reasons.
Most Ski Schools I've approached in Europe have asked for a first Aid Cert...so are you allowed to use those skills if necessary...or do have to leave it for Patrol? |
What kind of legal reasons? The not getting sued kind?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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spud,
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It goes against my human nature not to give assistance especially if a life or death situation..ie stopped breathing...but it's for legal reasons.
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I think that is the most obscene thing I have read about any ski school anywhere. Give me the French any day even if they have some inappropriate protectionism.
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It's not just certain ski schools... I've also worked for Tour Ops in France and Austria... Crystal was one of them...and as a rep or Chalet host you are not allowed to even touch someone who is injured or sick. We were all told at training week, very strongly, that if we didn't agree they wouldn't employ us.
It is because of sueing...
For example...People have been brought back to life, then sued for broken ribs and chest bone during resusitation... unbelievable I know... but it happens.
I bet the poor Reps and Chalet Hosts working for British TO's in France don't know it's a legal requirement in France to help.
It's a right can of worms...that's why I brought it up.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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spud,
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It's a right can of worms...that's why I brought it up.
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Fair enough and my criticism is not in any way of you. That does not decrease my abhorrence of the ski schools craven cowardice.
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| T Bar wrote: |
spud,
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It's a right can of worms...that's why I brought it up.
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Fair enough and my criticism is not in any way of you. That does not decrease my abhorrence of the ski schools craven cowardice. |
No worries...on a personal note...the Ski school I work at, is relatively small and on many days we have as many Patrollers on the mountain as we do Instructors...so it would never be an issue.
You can look at skiing in many ways...it's so easy to blame Ski Resorts and schools...but imho, the individual skiing should be aware of the risks they are taking.
In this day and age of H&S and qualifications needed to work as a pro in resort, it's unbelievable that anyone who has never skied before, can rock up to a mountain, hire some equipment and throw themselves down a black run, with no Instruction or Insurance legally required...it's nuts.
Imho, everyone attempting to ski for the first time, should be legally required to have at least one lesson and know the Alpine code, before any lift ticket is sold to them.
It makes a mockery of the whole Eurotest being a safety requirement, when this is allowed to go on.
Total hypocrisy imho...
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spud, it's interesting that there is a raft of French nautical regulation - you can't just rock up, buy an expensive yacht and take off into the blue. Nor, even if you are an experienced sailor, can you decide to go well offshore in a small boat. There are legal requirements for helmsmen to be qualified and separate requirements for the boat (e.g. having to have a liferaft more than X miles offshore). Nothing of the sort exists in the UK (for amateur sailors) and if you are in French waters in a British registered "small ship" you don't have to abide by the French requirements - the rosbifs are allowed to drown themselves without hindrance from the French state.
Remember the man who kept getting rescued by the RNLI because he was circumnavigating the UK, or trying to, with only the AA Members Handbook in lieu of charts. They'd probably lock him up, in France.
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| spud wrote: |
| it's so easy to blame Ski Resorts and schools...but imho, the individual skiing should be aware of the risks they are taking. |
Yes, I would want to be made aware of the risk I was taking by skiing with someone who is not allowed to try to resuscitate me if I collapse and stop breathing, even if they were capable!
I couldn't believe that the Canadian legal system didn't have something in place to protect people in this position - a very quick glance at the Good Samaritan Law wikipedia page says this:
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| in common-law areas of Canada a good Samaritan doctrine is a legal principle that prevents a rescuer who has voluntarily helped a victim in distress from being successfully sued for 'wrongdoing'. Its purpose is to keep people from being reluctant to help a stranger in need for fear of legal repercussions should they make some mistake in treatment |
Maybe that doesn't apply in ski resorts?!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| pam w wrote: |
spud, it's interesting that there is a raft of French nautical regulation - you can't just rock up, buy an expensive yacht and take off into the blue. Nor, even if you are an experienced sailor, can you decide to go well offshore in a small boat. There are legal requirements for helmsmen to be qualified and separate requirements for the boat (e.g. having to have a liferaft more than X miles offshore). Nothing of the sort exists in the UK (for amateur sailors) and if you are in French waters in a British registered "small ship" you don't have to abide by the French requirements - the rosbifs are allowed to drown themselves without hindrance from the French state.
Remember the man who kept getting rescued by the RNLI because he was circumnavigating the UK, or trying to, with only the AA Members Handbook in lieu of charts. They'd probably lock him up, in France. |
Exactly...which is why I find the whole 'Ski Safety' issue of the Eurotest Hypocrisy.
The Ski Schools employed by French Resorts or any other Country come to think of it, make safety their number one priority.
Yet...these same Ski Resorts will sell a lift ticket to a complete beginner and allow them to launch themselves off any gradient without any knowledge or understanding or Insurance...the whole game is a joke if you look at the bigger picture.
The company owning a resort is no different to a ski school...there seems to be a vast difference in how 'safety' is regarded.
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| spud wrote: |
| In this day and age of H&S and qualifications needed to work as a pro in resort, it's unbelievable that anyone who has never skied before, can rock up to a mountain, hire some equipment and throw themselves down a black run, with no Instruction or Insurance legally required...it's nuts.. |
It's called freedom; and why do you think that because there are rules that apply to people working for money means that everybody else has to be rules-bound too?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| spud wrote: |
Yet...these same Ski Resorts will sell a lift ticket to a complete beginner and allow them to launch themselves off any gradient without any knowledge or understanding or Insurance...the whole game is a joke if you look at the bigger picture.
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The same resorts, in the same department as Simon Butler, who leave fences unpadded resulting in the death of a girl[1]
http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-france/2014/02/25/01016-20140225ARTFIG00109-un-an-apres-la-mort-de-sa-fille-sur-les-pistes-une-mere-proteste.php
and one year later the local judge hasn't advanced the investigation (despite the Schumacher affair being done and dusted in 6 weeks). His latest excuse, he hasn't got a blank CD to write the case report on to send to the lawyer representing the dead girl's mum. Next he'll be saying his dog ate the evidence!
[1]I have some sympathy for Morzine, I'm not sure it is practical to pad and fence every single danger on the mountains and this is probably just a tragic accident - but without a proper independent investigation who knows? Still hoping for a proper independent investigation in a country where the Justice Minister has the lawyer of a former president bugged so she can gather political gossip is maybe asking a bit much.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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miranda, suspect the difference might be that there is uncertainty over the good samaritan law where the Samaritan is an official "employee" of the facility or qualified formally in the field. I think this has led, possibly in the US, to MDs (in a leisure capacity) declining to help while civvies with first aid can do so. There's probably some hippocratic oath stuff as well that might mean I'm spouting bollux.
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T Bar, fatbob, theres a difference I think between a passer by helping and an employee helping one of their customers, it will most likely come down to the company liability insurance and what they are covered for, the insurance company is likely to have issued restrictions such as not providing frst aid cover. In the US I think the MD thing is something to do with the way they licence MD's i.e you only have a licence in oe or more states not the whole USA, this has led to situations on aircraft where MD's have said they are unable to help in the past, in the UK there are different rules which is why our doctors have come to peoples aid mid flight, bear in mind in the USA people often lack health cover due to costs so if they end up in hospital after an accident they will usually find a lawyer who will try to sue people to at least pay for their hospital bills.
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You know it makes sense.
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So the legal system is designed not to dissuade (rather than encourage) a random stranger from helping someone, but offers no protection to a ski instructor with First Aid training who is able to help a client in serious distress? Weird. Well, in that case, I think I'd want my ski instructor to have Eurotest level speed, in case phone signals were down and they needed to get help pretty damn quick…
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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D G Orf,
That makes no difference whatsoever to a corporate attitude that denies aid to a dying person. It remains obscene.
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Poster: A snowHead
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T Bar, I'm not disagreeing, but then I find the whole suing someone who saves your life obscene as well.
As an aside a number of years ago two young American snowboarders were well off piste in the Bernese Oberland and well and truly stuck, fortunately their hotel realised they were missing and search parties were sent out, eventually locating them halfway up a mountain with cliffs above and below, A helicopter rescued them and bought the very grateful young men down, the next day the bill was presented, for several thousand Swiss Francs and the Americans said they wouldn't pay, not only that, they said they would put in a claim that the resort was negligent for failing to prevent them going off piste and getting into trouble, distress caused etc. etc. etc. At this point their parents became involved and as I understand it the conversation between them and the authorities went something along the lines of " Well of course you are welcome to take the resort to court, but it will be a Swiss court and the evidence will clearly show that your children went hundreds of meters beyond any piste and through clearly marked parts of the piste map where skiing and boarding is forbidden, whats more they were in an area where their prescence might have caused an avalanche that could have come down on the railway line or several properties, how do you thing a Swiss Jury will look at your ungrateful children ? " The parents paid the rescue bill at once
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I think a Good Samaritan getting sued is an urban myth, and would like to see evidence of it before believing it has happened. But, and it's a big but, if you are being paid to look after someone then you have a duty of care, and could be sued if through your incompetence or failure to act, i.e. administer aid, that person was hurt.
I do feel this is all a bit off topic.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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jbob, Canada. Ski buddy, who did not know the person, but was teamed up with him in a Helicopter skiing trip, was sued by the dead partners family when the person fell in a tree well and suffocated.
Ski buddy said he did his best to keep in touch with the buddy but lost sight of him in some trees and reported the issue at the bottom of the slope. Court threw it out, but must have given the guy a big shock.
You would hope the instructor would help if they could, Daughter had to get First Aid Qual, but would call ski patrol ASAP for them to sort it. Part of the deal then is being to tell them exactly where they are - now that should be part of a local exam.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Jake43, sort of proves my point. The guy was unsuccessfully sued, and not for causing damage by rendering first aid, but for not being a competent "buddy", plus it was thrown out.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Jake43 wrote: |
jbob, Canada. Ski buddy, who did not know the person, but was teamed up with him in a Helicopter skiing trip, was sued by the dead partners family when the person fell in a tree well and suffocated.
Ski buddy said he did his best to keep in touch with the buddy but lost sight of him in some trees and reported the issue at the bottom of the slope. Court threw it out, but must have given the guy a big shock.
You would hope the instructor would help if they could, Daughter had to get First Aid Qual, but would call ski patrol ASAP for them to sort it. Part of the deal then is being to tell them exactly where they are - now that should be part of a local exam. |
When I did my second language test that was exactly what they asked as part of it. In short, tested for second language proficiency is in my experience:
Piste location in case of emergency (in the middle of / at the side of / underneath / between ... chairlift, drag lift, pistes)
Common injury possibilities (parts of the body like knee / head / back)
Snow conditions (soft and slushy / hard and icy etc.)
Types of weather on the mountain.
Description of equipment (more what it is than what it does: front, back, binding etc)
To be honest, i would be very surprised if someone with a GCSE in a language couldn't communicate the word accident, a location and a body part over the phone to a patroller in the case of an accident.
That said, the language component is definitely the easiest, and the ability of some people that have passed it to even have a basic conversation is still somewhat suspect.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| SkiRider wrote: |
To be honest, i would be very surprised if someone with a GCSE in a language couldn't communicate the word accident, a location and a body part over the phone to a patroller in the case of an accident. |
To be honest, I could no way have done that after getting an A* in my GCSE French. If you'd given me time to think about it and write it down, or memorise it and given me prompts like you get in the oral test, yes, and I could have used some quite fancy tenses too in order to score the extra marks… communicating simple emergency information, off the cuff, verbally, over the phone so without even the use of mime… no way.
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My daughter somehow got an A in French GCSE but she's hopeless. My french is far better than hers for any useful purposes (after a grade 9 O level I did conversation evening classes in later life), the stuff they had to do for the GCSE was't helpful at all in everyday situations bar some of the grammar aspects. I get by with present and suspect past and future tenses.
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| Quote: |
I could no way have done that after getting an A* in my GCSE French. If you'd given me time to think about it and write it down, or memorise it and given me prompts like you get in the oral test, yes, and I could have used some quite fancy tenses too in order to score the extra marks…
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I'd agree with that. And in any case, that's not enough, is it, just location and body part? The rescuer has not understood your terrible accent over the poor radio link. He asks you to clarify. Or he asks about the urgency as there's been a rush of cases; could you reasonably wait a bit? It's not just about saying a few words, it's about understanding the response. Imagine the Daily Mail headlines if someone was badly injured on a walk in the Cairngorms and waited hours for rescue because the Polish guide couldn't speak more than half a dozen words of English. (Actually that's most improbable - even the Polish driver who courier'd some stuff to me this morning spoke more than A level English, albeit with a very thick accent - they wouldn't expect to get a job as a mountain guide without good English, no matter how fine their Polish mountain qualifications).
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Daft question perhaps - do the French have independent Nordic/Langlauf qualifications or does that also come under the one system?
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^
That's touched on in the interview that's linked elsewhere on this thread. IIRC it's an independent qualification which, under some circumstances, also permits alpine teaching.
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FAQ
