The bottom line is this. Some serious investment in snowmaking has made it possible for hundreds of thousands of people to ski across Europe this December. Years ago this would not have been possible.
We'd all rather ski on a mountain complete covered in knee deep powder but man made snow is is still slippery and many people have enjoyed themselves in it.
I'm not sure where you're from drvosjecha but here in the UK we do, indeed have plastic slopes and ski on them all year round.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Not sure what your point is drvosjecha. Don't like skiing on sugar, don't go there. Your call. You wondering about financial viability of snow making, then ask locals who do it. Don't forget their livelihoods depend on the length of a season.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@wyspa i am not wondering. its all cost benefit analysis. and your theory i am afraid doesnt add up. and i am not sure how skiing on plastic, styrofoam, grass or sand could ever replace organic skiing as we know it. truth is that things are changing, a lot. but man made snow is, and i am 100 on this one, not profitable at all. just look at the number of ski areas being auctioned nowadays, so i really think that styrofoam of some sort will replace man made snow soon.
@cameronphillips2000, "We'd all rather ski on a mountain complete covered in knee deep powder"
I don't think so. I'd guess that 80%+ of our clients want sunshine and well groomed firm pistes. And that's in Chamonix with a perceived higher off piste population than many places...
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
under a new name wrote:
@cameronphillips2000, "We'd all rather ski on a mountain complete covered in knee deep powder"
I don't think so. I'd guess that 80%+ of our clients want sunshine and well groomed firm pistes. And that's in Chamonix with a perceived higher off piste population than many places...
I think you've misunderstood me. I was comparing to the situation at the moment in places like the Dolomites that have loads of piste skiing available but the moutains are brown.
@under a new name, and @cameronphillips2000, Stop talking about powder, please.... its about as far removed from that as possible at the moment, and I am trying to convince myself that piste skiing is fun.........ish Didn't work today so had a day off today , and a short day yesterday..........
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Ah, Ok, yes, I had misunderstood you. Yes, I'm sure we all would prefer rather a more wintery ambience at this time of year
After all it is free
After all it is free
under a new name wrote:
@cameronphillips2000, "We'd all rather ski on a mountain complete covered in knee deep powder"
I don't think so. I'd guess that 80%+ of our clients want sunshine and well groomed firm pistes. And that's in Chamonix with a perceived higher off piste population than many places...
I would agree. I think of all the people who have rented our apartment over the last seven or eight years, only two are Snowheads users. The vast majority are families who want good on piste skiing conditions. I would guess that this is fairly representative of the vast majority of UK skiers, who are in the main 'holiday makers'. Setam get far far more complaints in VT when runs are not groomed than they do when they groom everything.
The economics of snow making do work, contrary to the opinion of the poster a few points above. It's done not just for the ski lift revenue but the taxes that all the local businesses pay, which are significant, and can only be afforded if the resorts are open. It's done for the revenues of all the local and international businesses and the employment and money that an open resort brings in.
p.s. How many european ski resorts are being 'auctioned'? I'm not even sure that's possible.
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@drvosjecha, so you are suggesting that the shape of long term Alpine economics be based on a late start to the season?
Snow making wouldn't have the investment it does if it didn't pay off - allowing crucial links to remain open through the whole season, etc.
They're not really there to manage the weather of the last month but are making an enormous difference nonetheless.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
@under a new name initial purpose of artificial snow wasnt to make skiing possible, it was rather used like a glue to fix slopes here and there. this is whole new level, relying completely on artificial snow. so mark my words, give it a season or two before cost benefit analysis start showing real picture. of course, not that i want dry seasons just to prove my point. let it snow. people shouldnt play god.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
We had a great day today, skiing over to Leogang and back, and then, after a mammoth apres-ski session up the mountain. skiing down to Saalbach in the dark after the piste bashers had been up - and I was surprised that the pistes were not as busy as expected for the first day of New Year week - is this because of people cancelling their ski trips, I wonder?
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Dependence on artificial snow for skiing at Christmas isn't new in my experience. Before 11/12 I skied 3 times in the Alps in this holiday period, and 2 of those were entirely on artificial snow: 89/90 I think in Alpe d'Huez, and sometime around 99/00 in Serre Chevalier. Last week in LT/Courch was much better for snow than either of those trips.
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Sun 27-12-15 19:46; edited 1 time in total
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@drvosjecha, but it's also a whole different technology these days.
I think a convincing cost benefit analysis would be hard or impossible using data from most years.
I don't think you'd be able to build a solid argument against.
As a ski resort there are various things you can do to help improve conditions:
Make snow
Encourage it to snow - very difficult to prove that it works
Move snow about the resort
Transport snow in.
Warm temperatures kill snow making but its rain and foehn that really kills the existing snow. I think the reason the Dolomites can have such extensive skiing on green mountains is the relatively small amount of rainfall. I skied there once in April on deep snow. It hadn't skied for 6 weeks and the temperatures were very high but, most imprtantly, there hadn't been a lot or rain.
I think a lot of low resorts in the western Alps could invest in snow mkaing of a similar scale but the higher rainfall when temperatures are high may make it not worth the effort.
I think more extensive snow making could be deveoped in areas that have suffering drought conditions such as parts of California or the Andes.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@drvosjecha, you say people shouldn't play God, but they do it all the time don't they? Developers build stuff that compromises the environment in loads of ways, use of materials, views, traffic generation, etc, on the basis they will get a payback.
Likewise, I'm thinking the companies that operate the large ski areas have accountants that are crunching the numbers on how long it will take to payoff the infrastructure investment in snowmaking. By doing so they will be likely to attract more visitors and so they will be helping the overall economic activity in the area and supporting jobs.
Which can't be a bad thing can it?
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
I'm sure universtities have studied business models of ski resorts for years. I can't imagine the summer holiday industry suffers in quite the same way if conditions aren't great although summer day trippers are very much influenced by current weather.
I think the other factor to consider is that most of us in Britain will have invested a fair amount in our ski holiday before we get there as we've booked and paid for flights and transfers. To decide not to go as the conditions aren't great, is to write off quite a lot pre paid money. For your average European family, who are probably within a reasonable drive of a decent ski resort, to call off at the last minute is not such a great sacrifice. It probably explains why lift passes are discounted if you buy them so far in advance.
I think decent snowmaking will pay off. Anyone going early season in Europe in years to come will be daft not to choose a place with significant glacier skiing or somewhere on the Sella Ronda with it's 12m spend on snowmaking infrastructure.
The interesting development will be whether the rules on snowmaking chemicals are relaxed. Only Switzerland, in Europe, is allowing additives at the moment, I believe.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Looks like Austrian resorts will get decent dump of the real stuff this weekend.
@Sharkymark lol, sure. it pays off. what have you guys been eating? people are canceling their ski trips, cuz of the poor conditions, e.g. myself and countless others, so less people on the slopes + the cost of maintining man made snow and your argument is economics. how does that add up? smh
No, it just means they won't make as much profit...smh etc etc
Not making the investment has, in those resorts that have chosen to invest, been judged to be a more of a threat to their sustainability in the long term.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@andy1234 since this is your argument ill ask u the same question ive been repeating for days now. how come they dont build more indoors ski areas, that way people can ski all year round and they dont depend on climate. that way locals would live of it all year round. this just looks sad, raping the nature, swimming upstream. smh
After all it is free
After all it is free
@wyspa if so, why dont they build indoor skiing building, that way season would last forever.
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drvosjecha wrote:
@andy1234 since this is your argument ill ask u the same question ive been repeating for days now. how come they dont build more indoors ski areas, that way people can ski all year round and they dont depend on climate. that way locals would live of it all year round. this just looks sad, raping the nature, swimming upstream. smh
People don't want ot spend a week siing a 200m slope in a industrial unit on the edge of a city. 688km of indoor slope (Like is open in the Dolomites a the moment would cost billions. It would also look awful and cost a huge amount ot keep cold.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
@drvosjecha there are many factors to consider in answering your question. One important one is basic physics, which in turn contributes to the economics.
Snow making in real ski resorts uses the ambient temperature to cool water to ice (snow). All it's really doing is providing the precipitation that's been missing. There is also reliance on the ambient temperature to stop the snow all melting away.
Indoor ski slopes are generally big fridges, where huge refrigeration units are needed to cool the water to form ice (snow) and then also to keep the whole temperature of the slope low enough that it doesn't melt. Indoor slopes are therefore must more expensive to run than typing up the snow on real ski slopes.
As a matter of interest, why do you think ski resorts have installed such extensive snow making facilities? Do you think they've got their financial modeling wrong?
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
@sugarmoma666 okay, truth. it would cost. great, man made snow also costs and its available for what, 3 months? so by making snow season last whole year round, that also means more money, doesnt it? there are no outputs with no inputs, obviously. still no valid argument against.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
drvosjecha wrote:
@andy1234 since this is your argument ill ask u the same question ive been repeating for days now. how come they dont build more indoors ski areas, that way people can ski all year round and they dont depend on climate. that way locals would live of it all year round. this just looks sad, raping the nature, swimming upstream. smh
Watch this, taken recently. This is why man made snow on proper mountains is a much better bet than lots more indoor slopes. If you've ever skied on a 150m indoor icy slope through a hundred or so other skiers, weaving between the lessons, you'll see why
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@cameronphillips2000 and skiing surronded by mud, dirt and grass looks very nice? it would cost a lot, but so does artificial snow, it isnt free. but the difference is u can only ski it for couple months in the winter and this way u could ski year round, which means money all year round. also it doesnt seem that people who ski artificial snow have too high standards, just as long as there is something to ski on, so why not make them happy and let them ski indoors in controled conditions, we can also display mountains, cows, sun etc on the walls to make them feel like they are in the dolomites. i would rather cancel then ski the dolomites rn.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Again, you're addressing your questions to wrong people. Send an email to some resorts and ask them about their numbers. Surely they would know the best. As for skiing in a fridge vs snow-cannoned alpine slopes, I suppose you've never skied in the former, have you?
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
drvosjecha wrote:
@cameronphillips2000 we can also display mountains, cows, sun etc on the walls to make them feel like they are in the dolomites. i would rather cancel then ski the dolomites rn.
Err no thanks. most of the uk snowdomes have mountains on the wall - but having even partial vision you can tell its not real.
Would I like a larger indoor dome (say 500m and 100m wide) yes please
Would I prefer to ski on a ribbon of snow on a real mountain yes please
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@cameronphillips2000 read other topics. people are currently crowded on man made snow pistes mixed with dirt. apart from dolomites okay, and even that isnt certain. as for what is better mountain or indoor slope, that is very individual. truth is there are lots of people who would rather choose not to ski than ski the conditions rn and others who are constantly rebelling against indoor slopes but are much better with skiing on fake snow on 22+ celsius, i can in most polite manner say are incomprehensible to me. as for economic and profit part of this thesis, i can only say 12 months of money is better than 3 months of money. simple math, cost benefit guys.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@Tom W this looks very dreadful. how is this better than not skiing at all or skiing in controlled environment?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
This really is a strange argument you guys are having.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@wyspa how u gon ski cannon a slope if there is 22+ celsius outside like it was the other day in the dolomites, how? dont be mad and insult me because i am being rational. artificial snow is relying on too many different factors to be sustained. for now it works, but its just beating a dead horse really.
@rob@rar ive cancelled, shouldve gone to kronplatz.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Agree, it's a very strange argument. It's not as if you're raising ideas that no one has thought of yet. Both indoor fridges and artificial outdoor snow on pistes have existed for years and will likely continue to exist for years. The two are not even in competition with each other so why the discussion. Take your pick and enjoy.
After all it is free
After all it is free
@drvosjecha, where had you booked to ski?
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drvosjecha wrote:
@sugarmoma666 okay, truth. it would cost. great, man made snow also costs and its available for what, 3 months? so by making snow season last whole year round, that also means more money, doesnt it? there are no outputs with no inputs, obviously. still no valid argument against.
Yep, as you say, no outputs without inputs. Therefore keeping the snow available on a artificial slope all year round requires ongoing refrigeration, and hence cost. Have you studied the economics of ski resorts?
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
@snoozeboy couple of more winters like this and the last one and mark my words, they wont be in competition. and yeah people have thought of it earlier, its nothing new, but its time to take it more seriously now then ever before, for god sake people are riding bycicles around mountains currently.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
Didn't work today so had a day off today , and a short day yesterday..........
